Paul The Herodian and the DSS

[Craig B]

I cannot believe what I am seeing. You do not know when 2 Thessalonians was actually written. You do not know when it became part of the Pauline Corpus.

We know that Justin did not mention or identify any letter to the Thessalonians and we know that he identified that it was the Memoirs of the Apostles that was read in the Churches.

2nd Thessalonians was forged AFTER Justin's Dialogue with Trypho.

If Justin had a letter attributed to Paul he would have identified him just like he identified all the authors of the Septuagint to whom he made references.

It is not argued that Justin named Paul or that he named the epistles. So this is either bald assertion or irrelevant. I have argued that the similarity between the Justin passages and the Pauline ones proves influence. All you are now doing is saying there can't be, because the epistles were written later. So you are merely asserting what you have been asked to prove, as if the assertions themselves constitute such proof. They don't. And here I am wrestling with all manner of texts. Waste of time, really.

 

[dejudge]

Let me get this right. Paul couldn't have obtained information from a dead Jesus. Therefore Justin couldn't have seen a document in which Paul stated that he had communed with a dead Jesus.

But what if Paul was a madman or a charlatan, who believed or affirmed falsely that he had received information from a dead Jesus and managed to convince future writers of this improbable circumstance? Then Justin could have seen it.

You keep arguing whether Paul's writings are authentic or sane or honest. It doesn't matter a toss. The question is, did Justin have knowledge of them? The evidence suggests that he did.

Why do you want to accept the words of a madman or liar as credible?

Again, Justin never mentioned Paul, never mentioned a letter to the Thessalonians or to the Corinthians.

Justin identified that he got his Ritual from the Gospels--the Memoirs of the Apostles and you want to 'look me in the eye" and tell me that he got it from 1 Corinthians.

Your claim is completely unacceptable.

Why do you continue to openly propagate erroneous information?

Justin's Apology LXVI

For the apostles, in the memoirs composed by them, which are called Gospels, have thus delivered unto us what was enjoined upon them...

 

[Craig B]

Why do you want to accept the words of a madman or liar as credible?

Again, Justin never mentioned Paul, never mentioned a letter to the Thessalonians or to the Corinthians.

Justin identified that he got his Ritual from the Gospels--the Memoirs of the Apostles and you want to 'look me in the eye" and tell me that he got it from 1 Corinthians.

Your claim is completely unacceptable.

Why do you continue to openly propagate erroneous information?

Justin's Apology LXVI

What a strange post! I have already stated that Justin used an expression "memoirs of the Apostles" which included all manner of material. His definition of "Gospels", like Paul's, was also probably very different from ours.

And what's this stuff about me looking you in the eye, making completely unacceptable claims and openly propagating erroneous information? These are odd remarks in the context of such a discussion.

(By the way, Mods if you see these remarks, please leave them be. I'm not offended by them at all.)

The information propagated by me is not believed by me to be erroneous, and I hope it's not. In any case I have produced evidence to support it.

 

[dejudge]

It is not argued that Justin named Paul or that he named the epistles. So this is either bald assertion or irrelevant. I have argued that the similarity between the Justin passages and the Pauline ones proves influence. All you are now doing is saying there can't be, because the epistles were written later. So you are merely asserting what you have been asked to prove, as if the assertions themselves constitute such proof. They don't. And here I am wrestling with all manner of texts. Waste of time, really.

Again, how in the world can you claim Justin knew of Paul and the Pauline letters when he never identified Paul or the letters?

Justin identified his sources and stated that it was the Memoirs of the Apostles called Gospels that was used in the Churches.

You have no proof that Justin used 2 Thessalonians because you do not know when it was composed.

2 Thessalonians is a forgery of unknown authorship and date of authorship.

Forgeries are specifically manufactured to deceive with LATE authors posing as 1st century writers.

And in the case of First apology LXVI--Justin specifically identified his source as the Gospels--the Memoirs--NOT 1 Corinthians.

 

[dejudge]

What a strange post! I have already stated that Justin used an expression "memoirs of the Apostles" which included all manner of material. His definition of "Gospels", like Paul's, was also probably very different from ours.

Your claim is erroneous. Justin's Memoirs of the Apostle are called Gospels and contains a story of Jesus from conception to ascension.

Please, you must understand that I have Justin's writings so you are not going to get away with your mis-leading claims.

 

[Craig B]

Again, how in the world can you claim Justin knew of Paul and the Pauline letters when he never identified Paul or the letters?

Justin identified his sources and stated that it was the Memoirs of the Apostles called Gospels that was used in the Churches.

You have no proof that Justin used 2 Thessalonians because you do not know when it was composed.

2 Thessalonians is a forgery of unknown authorship and date of authorship.

Forgeries are specifically manufactured to deceive with LATE authors posing as 1st century writers.

And in the case of First apology LXVI--Justin specifically identified his source as the Gospels--the Memoirs--NOT 1 Corinthians.

Since you have merely restated arguments I have addressed - repeatedly - without considering the responses I have given, there seems no point in continuing this discourse. But thank you for the interesting posts I have received from you up to now.

 

[Brainache]

Hi. Just in from a cursory peruse of Justin. Obviously being the pseudohistory superman that I am, I spotted something which no one else has ever spotted ever and my totally uninformed speculation about it is the Truth! OK? Good.

This bit in the "lost writings of Justin":
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/justinmartyr-fragments.html

...
He speaks not of the Gentiles in foreign lands, but concerning [the people] who agree with the Gentiles, according to that which is spoken by Jeremiah: "It is a bitter thing for thee, that thou hast forsaken me, saith the Lord thy God, that of old thou hast broken thy yoke, and torn asunder thy bands, and said, I will not serve Thee, but will go to every high hill, and underneath every tree, and there shall I become dissolute in my fornication." -- From manuscript of the writings of JUSTIN.

With this bit from the Habakkuk Pesher:
http://www.preteristarchive.com/BibleStudies/DeadSeaScrolls/1QpHab_pesher_habakkuk.html

"For through them Their portion is fat and their sustenance rich":

Interpreted, this means that they divide their yoke and their tribute -- their sustenance -- over all the peoples year by year, ravaging many lands.

"Therefore their sword is ever drawn to massacre nations mercilessly [Hab 1.17].

Interpreted, this concerns the Kittim who cause many to perish by the sword -- youths, grown men, the aged, women and children -- and who even take no pity on the fruit of the womb.

And just below that, this reference to the Teacher Of Righteousness (TOR -from now on):

And as for that which He said, "that he who reads may read it speedily"

Interpreted this concerns the Teacher of Righteousness, to whom God made known all the mysteries of the words of His servants the prophets.

"For there shall be yet another vision concerning the appointed time. It shall tell of the end and shall not lie [Hab 2.3a].

Interpreted, this means that the final age shall be prolonged, and shall exceed all that the prophets have said; for the mysteries of God are astounding.

Have I heard that bolded phrase before in the Bible. Is it a letter or a Gospel? I forget...

Also that bit about the final age being prolonged is familiar as well...

Must.... not... make... uninformed... speculations.... There is probably a straightforward explanation like these were common liturgical phrases in Second Temple Judaism.

I just need to calm myself for a minute...

 

[dejudge]

Since you have merely restated arguments I have addressed - repeatedly - without considering the responses I have given, there seems no point in continuing this discourse. But thank you for the interesting posts I have received from you up to now.

That is precisely what I expected you to say. You have been thoroughly debunked.

You present a known forgery, 2 Thessalonians, giving the impression that you know when it was composed.

You claim Justin knew of 1 Corinthians when he specifically identified his source as the Gospels--the Memoirs of the Apostles.

I did warn you that Justin is very meticulous and that he did mention his sources.

If Justin knew of Paul and his letters he would have identified them by name.

 

[Craig B]

Your claim is erroneous. Justin's Memoirs of the Apostle are called Gospels and contains a story of Jesus from conception to ascension.
Please, you must understand that I have Justin's writings so you are not going to get away with your mis-leading claims.

Well, then I'm glad I decided in my previous post not to make any more claims.

 

[dejudge]

Since you have merely restated arguments I have addressed - repeatedly - without considering the responses I have given, there seems no point in continuing this discourse. But thank you for the interesting posts I have received from you up to now.

I am addressing your responses to my posts.

You have repeatedly failed to show that Justin Martyr used the Pauline Corpus.

 

[Brainache]

Oops. Just realised that "If it tarries..." line is from Habakkuk that the scroll is quoting. D'oh.

But this is better: http://www.preteristarchive.com/BibleStudies/DeadSeaScrolls/1QpHab_pesher_habakkuk.html

"If it tarries, wait for it, for it shall surely come and shall not be late" [Hab 2.3b].

Interpreted, this concerns the men of truth who keep the Law, whose hands shall not slacken in the service of truth when the final age is prolonged. For all the ages of God reach their appointed end as he determines for them in the mysteries of His wisdom.

[]"But the righteous shall live by his faith"[[Hab 2.4b]].

Interpreted, this concerns all those who observe the Law in the House of Judah, whom God will deliver from the House of Judgement because of their suffering and because of their faith in the Teacher of Righteousness.

Hab 2.4. What did Paul say? I can't find where he quotes the actual Habakkuk verse, but I think it is what he is talking about here:

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans 3&version=NIV

..21 But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness is given through faith in[h] Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— 26 he did it to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus...

Hmm, a very different take to the Qumran crowd. Eisenman of course identifies this same disagreement as that between James and Paul.

Maybe lots of different people were saying this. I don't know, but it is still interesting.

 

[pakeha]

All writings under the name of Paul, from Romans to Philemon, All 13 so-called Epistles, were fabricated NO earlier than 180 CE. ...

I'd thought the absolute upper limit for composition of the Pauline Epistles was 144, when, Marcion was excommunicated.
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/marcion.html

I'd be interested in learning why that limit should be pushed to 180.

 

[Craig B]

You have been thoroughly debunked.

Phew! I feel I've been let off lightly with a mere debunking, following your earlier comments. So thank you for that.

 

[dejudge]

Phew! I feel I've been let off lightly with a mere debunking, following your earlier comments. So thank you for that.

You are the one who promoted that Justin's writings have distinct references to Romans, 1 Corinthians, Galatians, Ephesians, Colossians, and 2 Thessalonians, and possible ones to Philippians, Titus, and 1 Timothy.

Don't run away, now.

You still have to show us the distinct references to other passages of Galatians, Ephesians, Colossians, Philippians, Titus, and 1 Timothy.

I eagerly await.

So far, you presented a known forgery [2 Thessalonian] and a distinct reference to the Gospels [the Memoirs of the Apostles]

 

[Craig B]

You are the one who promoted that Justin's writings have distinct references to Romans, 1 Corinthians, Galatians, Ephesians, Colossians, and 2 Thessalonians, and possible ones to Philippians, Titus, and 1 Timothy.

Don't run away, now.

You still have to show us the distinct references to other passages of Galatians, Ephesians, Colossians, Philippians, Titus, and 1 Timothy.

I eagerly await.

So far, you presented a known forgery [2 Thessalonian] and a distinct reference to the Gospels [the Memoirs of the Apostles]

You do go on! Take it up with the Encyclopaedia Britannica. I'm in the pub.

 

[Brainache]

The Man Of Apostasy.
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/justinmartyr-dialoguetrypho.html

in which He shall come from heaven with glory, when the man of apostasy, who speaks strange things against the Most High, shall venture to do unlawful deeds on the earth against us the Christians,

The Wicked Priest.
http://www.preteristarchive.com/BibleStudies/DeadSeaScrolls/1QpHab_pesher_habakkuk.html

Column 10 - "the city is Jerusalem"

And as for that which he said, "because of the blood of the city and the violence done to the land":

Interpreted, the city is Jerusalem where the Wicked Priest committed abominable deeds and defiled the Temple of God. The violence done to the land: these are the cities of Judah where he robbed the poor of their possessions.

It looks promising to me, but I suppose there was more than one famous Apostate in that place.

 

[dejudge]

I'd thought the absolute upper limit for composition of the Pauline Epistles was 144, when, Marcion was excommunicated.
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/marcion.html

I'd be interested in learning why that limit should be pushed to 180.

Who said Marcion was excommunicated c 144 CE?

The same persons who did not know when their OWN Paul really lived, what he wrote, and when he died!!

The same persons who made claims about Marcion did not know who wrote their OWN Gospels, when they wrote and their contents.

Just imagine that Irenaeus made all sorts of claims about Marcion but argued that Jesus was crucified about 20 years after the 15th year of Tiberius or about c 49 CE and under Claudius.

Irenaeus who supposedly wrote so much about Marcion did NOT even realize that if Jesus was crucified c 49 CE then the Gospels, Acts of the Apostles and the Pauline Corpus are historical garbage.

What a disaster!!

The very first writer to mention the four Gospels, Acts of the Apostles and the Pauline Corpus did NOT know that it was taught in the Churches that Jesus was crucified under Pilate in the reign of Tiberius.

Scholars have rejected almost everything that Irenaeus wrote about the authorship, and dating of the Gospels, Acts of the Apostles and the Pauline Corpus.

It is quite evident that claims that Marcion knew of the Pauline Corpus are late inventions. If forgeries were not manufactured then we would have had NO trace of the Pauline Corpus in 2nd century Apologetics.

It would have been obvious that the Pauline Corpus was unknown by 2nd century writers.

1. Hippolytus contradicts all claims that Marcion used the Pauline Corpus.

2. Justin Martyr claimed Marcion preached another God and another Son.

3. Ephraem the Syrian wrote three books Against Marcion and there is virtually nothing about the Pauline Corpus.

 

[pakeha]

Thanks for the reply, dejudge.
I see I have a lot of reading ahead of me on the subject of Marcion.

 

[Craig B]

It is quite evident that claims that Marcion knew of the Pauline Corpus are late inventions. If forgeries were not manufactured then we would have had NO trace of the Pauline Corpus in 2nd century Apologetics.

No doubt. But in case anyone is unaware of how non-mainstream your views are, here's wiki on Marcion.

Marcion's canon consisted of eleven books: A gospel consisting of ten sections from the Gospel of Luke edited by Marcion; and ten of Paul's epistles. All other epistles and gospels of the 27 book New Testament canon were rejected. Paul's epistles enjoy a prominent position in the Marcionite canon, since Paul is credited with correctly transmitting the universality of Jesus' message.

Well he would have been if Marcion had ever known anything about him.

 

[Brainache]

No doubt. But in case anyone is unaware of how non-mainstream your views are, here's wiki on Marcion. Well he would have been if Marcion had ever known anything about him.

Guys, do you think we can try to stick to the topic here and not let dejudge derail this thread?

Please?