Continuation Part Six: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[kwill]

Her whole diary was photocopied, and put into the investigation file.

The investigation file is not public, and it is not even only one, not in one place - there are things deposited at the investigating judge's office, and things which are elsewhere. I think the diary was deposited with the investigating judge.

But even if it's not public, there is still an alarming number of people who have a right to access it. All the defendants attorneys, first of all. This includes attorneys of Sollecito, Lumumba and Guede. And also civil parties plaintiffs, which means Maresca, Fabiani, Perna, possibly also Tattanelli's attorney (if she had one already).
Theoretically any of these people could leak anything.

Nice passive voice. Someone photocopied her whole diary and then it went into any of a variety of places, but you think probably this one went to a file being held by the investigating judge. Who could have taken the diary and photocopied it? To what end?

And then, how does anyone on the list you mentioned find out that the file exists? Does the investigating judge have to send out notices to each of those attorneys every time something appears in the file s/he keeps?

 

[Kaosium]

That's it??!! That's supposed to be the reference that people think refers to her first meeting with the murderer Guede??

Holy hell.

Let's see . .we have a young woman on a big adventure, writing to her online friends that she's excited and happy. She's saying in five different ways that the people she's talked to so far are friendly, diverse, and interesting.

I have a few friends who are in their early twenties -- some former students, some who became family friends after getting close to our daughters. Three of them are currently in foreign countries doing various jobs and working on various degrees. That myspace post is something any of them could have written, though now of course they don't use myspace. They have their own silly blogs, which are sometimes transparently written to reassure both themselves and their loved ones back home that they're doing fine.

That's how I read this. How terribly weird to keep repeating that "beautiful black man" phrase as if it's some kind of ominous sign of depravity to come.

What makes it even more ridiculous is that when Amanda does meet Rudy Guede and is introduced, Rudy spends the night with the toilet, despite the fact Rudy had asked the boys about Amanda's availability and was apparently interested. The other time they met in a social setting (again with the boys downstairs) Amanda spends the night with Daniel De Luca.

So no, Rudy was not the guy she referred to as the 'most beautiful black man' and the evidence suggests she had no interest in him at all.

 

[Machiavelli]

This, of course, is because it is one of the more imbecilic assumptions ever posted on the topic of this entire imbroglio.

Guede was a high school dropout, a hanger on - a person who at best had insinuated himself into the student life of Perugia, whilst possessing no legitimate standing. AK was a good student, a person with a solid family life, supportive friends and personal ambitions. She came to Italy for a semester abroad, and had enrolled in a structured course of study. In short order, she glommed onto RS, a person of similar class, standing and ambitions.

Guede was a robber and a shiftless loser, and did not fit the profiles of her background or friendships. For those who are not interested in trumping up preposterous, groundless fantasies about Knox's predilections, it's really not that complicated.

The quote above is exactly a paradigm example of what I consider the "anthropological prejudice" that I find so obnoxious and repulsive. An egregious falsehood, and what essentially blinds the Knox-supporters.

Look the statement "Guede not fit the profiles of her background or friendships" (reality check 1: she had contacts with a cocaine dealer and they had each other's phone numbers; reality check 2: who is Federico? What's his job?; reality check 3: Guede and Knox (and Meredith) attended the same parties and the same bars and shared the same friends).

I find your concepts of "legitimate standing" and "class" utterly disgusting, as well as the most vague idea "personal ambitions", probably unattached to reality (we know how Sollecito described Knox).
But they are also false. "Solid family life", "supportive": Sollecito: a suicide mother, a person collecting knifes and sadistic porn, no relations, his father tells him what to do and calls him every evening, he deployed a command of Italian and school education so lower compared to Guede (his last appeareance this month, an embasassing performance: he kind of plaid the ethnicity card with the judges "I'm Italian, as you are", but the problem is, I was thinking, you wouldn't guess his nationality from his command of grammar).
Guede actually had a proper way of expressing himself, his speaking in court appeared well-educated, almost elegant.

 

[Machiavelli]

Nice passive voice. Someone photocopied her whole diary and then it went into any of a variety of places, but you think probably this one went to a file being held by the investigating judge. Who could have taken the diary and photocopied it? To what end?

It was photocopied because the original always formally belonged to Amanda Knox. It was brought to the prosecution's office, photocopied so investigators would have copies and to put a photocopy into to the investigation file.
It is absolutely possible that some copy that the police had was the one that was leaked. But there is no way to prove it. It might well be a leak from a lawyer.

And then, how does anyone on the list you mentioned find out that the file exists? Does the investigating judge have to send out notices to each of those attorneys every time something appears in the file s/he keeps?

The Italian lawyers call themselves "dominus" (domini, the plural) because lawfirmas have a kind personal 'armies' of assistants who queque up every early morning at various court offices, to search the files for/ or to retrieve documents in their cases. They are like locusts. It's unbelievable.

 

[Mary_H]

The quote above is exactly a paradigm example of what I consider the "anthropological prejudice" that I find so obnoxious and repulsive. An egregious falsehood, and what essentially blinds the Knox-supporters.

Have you considered applying that standard to your view of women?

Look the statement "Guede not fit the profiles of her background or friendships" (reality check 1: she had contacts with a cocaine dealer and they had each other's phone numbers; reality check 2: who is Federico? What's his job?; reality check 3: Guede and Knox (and Meredith) attended the same parties and the same bars and shared the same friends).

These are external, structural considerations. Most of us are looking at Amanda's choices from a cultural-emotional point of view.

I find your concepts of "legitimate standing" and "class" utterly disgusting, as well as the most vague idea "personal ambitions", probably unattached to reality (we know how Sollecito described Knox).
But they are also false. "Solid family life", "supportive": Sollecito: a suicide mother, a person collecting knifes and sadistic porn, no relations, his father tells him what to do and calls him every evening, he deployed a command of Italian and school education so lower compared to Guede (his last appeareance this month, an embasassing performance: he kind of plaid the ethnicity card with the judges "I'm Italian, as you are", but the problem is, I was thinking, you wouldn't guess his nationality from his command of grammar).
Guede actually had a proper way of expressing himself, his speaking in court appeared well-educated, almost elegant.

Also consider applying the "anthropological prejudice" standard to your view of Southern Italians like Raffaele.

What did Rudy say when he spoke in court? I know in "his" letter, he said something about, "as usual in this great country of ours...."

 

[Machiavelli]

That is another bald lie, Machiavelli. There is no record that the diary was ever entered into the case file. It was stollen and photocopied, yes. But the copies were sold straight to the press by the lying scum of the ILE.

Not the case file. The investigation file.

 

[Machiavelli]

What did Rudy say when he spoke in court? I know in "his" letter, he said something about, "as usual in this great country of ours...."

No, he wrote "...in this beautiful country of ours..."

 

[Mary_H]

It was photocopied because the original always formally belonged to Amanda Knox.<snip>

Prison inmates have no right to the expectation of privacy, but they have the right to ownership of what they produce in prison? How does that work?

 

[yimyammer]

This about sums up a very reasonable description of a "conspiracy theory".... one that I don't buy, really, but would be hard pressed to argue against.

It can only be repeated that when Stefanoni was under oath, she could neither confirm nor deny that she, herself, had contaminated the bra-hook with her dirty glove. If there was a conspiracy to convict, it went well beyond these points listed above.

The sexual vilification of Knox went a long way to biasing the original jury. That's my belief, anyway. It's why, regardless of the origin of the "Satanic Rite theory", or Machiavelli's denials that he'd ever floated a "pimp" theory, I go with acbytesla... (I think it was acbytesla).... the issue is that these became memes in the popular mind, enough for Nadeau to write about it, enough for John Kercher to write in his book about Meredith, that the prosecution had this as a "controversial theory".

Machiavelli's arguments here provide the key... it's part of the construction of "compatible theories" which all start with an assumption of guilt... which Machiavelli starts with, as he's admitted. From that point on it's not a matter of using these theories to prove guilt, that is already assumed.

The "conspiracy" up to January 11, 2008, is simply not enough to explain why we are here in Nov 2013.... It really took the Hellmann court to see that the king had no clothes, and then the ISC threw it back....

..... and what's happened since is nothing but a vindication of the Hellmann court. This is now not about Napoleoni, Mignini, or Stefanoni, even as much as I hope they all get a stay in Capanne prison their troubles.

I am less inclined to believe a coordinated conspiracy took place and think it was more likely a series of people more interested in self preservation than truth and justice. It reminds me of the cultures that existed in Nazi Germany and post WW2 countries behind the iron curtain. Self preservation caused people to silently agree to things they would never do in a free world without fear, throw in some righteous indignation and one can justify about anything. I'm in no way comparing Italy to those times/places, I'm just saying that self preservation can rear it's ugly head in the same way, even in free countries across the world today and wreak havoc on the truth.

Seems to me it would be more likely she just falsified a report or tested a known sample of Rafs DNA and said it came from the bra clasp and then put the clasp in a container she knew would destroy it making it useless for further testing or verification. How would anyone know what she did? Was her work filmed, were other people with her through all stages of the testing?

I'm not saying that's what happened, I don't know and find the bra clasp the most troubling piece of evidence to explain away. Despite the method and length of time it took to collect it, I wouldn't expect Amanda's place to be littered with Rafs DNA that could contaminate it, so how it got there is perplexing to me.

The only thing that seems possible is if Rafs DNA was on the doorknob and it got transferred from the Knob to the clasp by one of the techs but how do you prove that? I am still not clear on whether DNA can easily be transferred in this way as I've heard it argued that it can't but I don't know enough about the science to say one way or the other.

 

[Mary_H]

No, he wrote "...in this beautiful country of ours..."

Doesn't it embarrass you that he played the ethnicity card with the judges?

 

[yimyammer]

Which would indicate that:

a: she can't remember it or have a hope of saying it right
b: she didn't know it
c: it was Rudy Guede and she was protecting him from a police investigation about a murder that hadn't even occurred yet.

.

d. It was such an insignificant event she forgot all about whoever it was (she's been kind of preoccupied since that encounter)

 

[Kaosium]

Look the statement "Guede not fit the profiles of her background or friendships" (reality check 1: she had contacts with a cocaine dealer
(snip)

What evidence is there the person who reportedly had Amanda's phone number was a cocaine dealer in 2007? It was 2011 that report was published meaning that three or four years later the guy had been busted for something, but that certainly doesn't mean that when Amanda knew him he was drug dealer, or even if he was that Amanda ever knew it. At this point you're condemning Amanda for guilt by past association, that because she knew someone who later was busted that he was the same kind of guy when she knew him three-four years previous.

Is there even proof that report published in that little paper with such a poor track record in this case was accurate?

 

[kwill]

It was photocopied because the original always formally belonged to Amanda Knox.

But my question was about who photocopied it. You made a categorical statement that police never leaked anything to the press. How can you possibly know that?

It was brought to the prosecution's office, photocopied so investigators would have copies and to put a photocopy into to the investigation file.

Again with the passive voice . . . who brought it? Are you certain they didn't leak it?

It is absolutely possible that some copy that the police had was the one that was leaked. But there is no way to prove it. It might well be a leak from a lawyer.

I'm not asking for proof . . . I'm just finding it interesting that now you're saying the police could have leaked it, when before you were saying they absolutely did not.

The Italian lawyers call themselves "dominus" (domini, the plural) because lawfirmas have a kind personal 'armies' of assistants who queque up every early morning at various court offices, to search the files for/ or to retrieve documents in their cases. They are like locusts. It's unbelievable.

How strange. So there's no orderly process to make sure that everyone involved sees the relevant material?

 

[Machiavelli]

Have you considered applying that standard to your view of women?

Had this murder taken place in a male homosexual environment with a male gay victim, and if Amanda Knox was the name of a drag queen, I may be considering various possibilitines of homosexual frequentations; I bet you would be accusing me of being an omophobic and you would be asking to reconsider my view of homosexuals.

These are external, structural considerations. Most of us are looking at Amanda's choices from a cultural-emotional point of view.

I don't know what that means, I suspect it means you may admit my consderations belong to reality rather than to an... emotional universe?

"Cultural-emotional point of view". Intriguing term. "True from a cultural-emotional point of view". I really don't know what you mean, it's a fascinating definition anyway.

Also consider applying the "anthropological prejudice" standard to your view of Southern Italians like Raffaele.

Or like me. I am half-Calabrian (the other half is from the very North).

 

[js202]

The quote above is exactly a paradigm example of what I consider the "anthropological prejudice" that I find so obnoxious and repulsive. An egregious falsehood, and what essentially blinds the Knox-supporters.

Look the statement "Guede not fit the profiles of her background or friendships" (reality check 1: she had contacts with a cocaine dealer and they had each other's phone numbers; reality check 2: who is Federico? What's his job?; reality check 3: Guede and Knox (and Meredith) attended the same parties and the same bars and shared the same friends).

I find your concepts of "legitimate standing" and "class" utterly disgusting, as well as the most vague idea "personal ambitions", probably unattached to reality (we know how Sollecito described Knox).
But they are also false. "Solid family life", "supportive": Sollecito: a suicide mother, a person collecting knifes and sadistic porn, no relations, his father tells him what to do and calls him every evening, he deployed a command of Italian and school education so lower compared to Guede (his last appeareance this month, an embasassing performance: he kind of plaid the ethnicity card with the judges "I'm Italian, as you are", but the problem is, I was thinking, you wouldn't guess his nationality from his command of grammar).
Guede actually had a proper way of expressing himself, his speaking in court appeared well-educated, almost elegant.

Couldn't care less what you do or do not find disgusting. It is patently clear that you are anti-American, so for you to make any judgment whatsoever about prejudice is like Chaucer's Pardoner giving a disquisition on modesty and honesty.

You have persistently fitted bizarre and obtuse personality assessments to an absurd conclusion about a very serious crime. You have cheered on the ruination of innocent persons - and their families - trapped in the machinations of clueless scoundrels. You blather on about the seriousness of calumny even as you make up sheer crap from whole cloth about complete strangers.

Moreover, because your crazy theories would otherwise completely collapse under their own weight, you have contributed to a hagiography of the lowlife scumbag who actually committed the crime.

 

[yimyammer]

Ehm, no there is no number but... this is another strange element in fact. If she really liked him (as she writes in her page, and there is no particular reason to believe she lies on her MySpace) in a situation like this, you would expect that they would probably exchange their phone numbers. The fact they didn't do that despite they liked each other, is itself not what you would expect. Unless they were both shy people (they were not). But what if the man didn't have a cell phone?

Hey Mach, do you know if the drug dealer that had Amanda's number in his phone was black?

 

[Strozzi]

Here's the thing. Amanda had "met" Rudy two weeks before Meredith's murder. He was a basketball friend of the guys downstairs. Even they hardly knew him really outside of the court at Piazza Grimana although I think he slept on their floor one time.

Most of the guys downstairs who played basketball did not even know Rudy's name. He used a nickname on the basketball court and that is how they know him.

But Mignini knows his name. He knows him as "Poor Rudy".

 

[acbytesla]

Most of the guys downstairs who played basketball did not even know Rudy's name. He used a nickname on the basketball court and that is how they know him.

But Mignini knows his name. He knows him as "Poor Rudy".

Wasn't it Count or Duke or something like that?

 

[Mary_H]

Had this murder taken place in a male homosexual environment with a male gay victim, and if Amanda Knox was the name of a drag queen, I may be considering various possibilitines of homosexual frequentations; I bet you would be accusing me of being an omophobic and you would be asking to reconsider my view of homosexuals.

I would be asking you to reconsider your false views, regardless of what they might be. That's all I am doing here.

I don't know what that means, I suspect it means you may admit my consderations belong to reality rather than to an... emotional universe?

"Cultural-emotional point of view". Intriguing term. "True from a cultural-emotional point of view". I really don't know what you mean, it's a fascinating definition anyway.

It means we understand (and can predict) Amanda's behavior better than you.

Or like me. I am half-Calabrian (the other half is from the very North).

Okay, then, you're just a grammar snob? (I confess, I am, too, although I hope I wouldn't convict anyone of murder because of it.)

And now I understand why you won't say Rudy played the ethnicity card with the judges -- he's not an ethnic Italian. Is that right?

Where is the answer to my question about how an inmate can both simultaneously own a document and have it stolen from them without the theft being a crime?

 

[Machiavelli]

But my question was about who photocopied it. You made a categorical statement that police never leaked anything to the press. How can you possibly know that?

I don't know who photocopied, how many people and how many times. It's impossible to know: how could I?

I'm not asking for proof . . . I'm just finding it interesting that now you're saying the police could have leaked it, when before you were saying they absolutely did not.

Maybe you misunderstood, I just don't believe "they" (the detectives) leaked it. It is impossible to rule out that no police officer at all leaked the diary to a journalist, but I don't believe the people involved in the investigation did.
They probably sent a copy to another office for the translation so it's really dificult for me to guess how many side persons picked it up.
Anyway: this is a diary. It's not HIV information or sexual information. It's something written by Amanda Knox. She is the one who decided the contents not the leakers, whoever the leaker was. I also believe it is evident that she wrote it as an artifact, for defensive purpose, expecting that the investigators would read it and that it would have publicity.
So we can't say "that the police leaked a list of sexual partners", no, what was leaked was the photocopy of a diary, but such diary was not to be considered private information: it's just a writing of Knox, at a time when she had no right to private communications. It's an artifact created by Knox.

How strange. So there's no orderly process to make sure that everyone involved sees the relevant material?

No. Basically all parties involved need to recover everything on their own. There is an advice that everything is "ready" (the investigation closed) at some moment, but that will be very late.