Continuation Part Six: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[Chris_Halkides]

publishing the results of scientific studies

Dr. Hampikian's lab performed some DNA transfer experiments that have not yet been published. If Andrea's requests included her asking for information about those experiments or others in progress, such requests should be opposed. As someone who discusses experimental results prior to publishing them, I really would not want my comments about work in progress made public. There is a time to make scientific results public, and that is when both the experimenter and the reviewers of his or her manuscript are satisfied that the work is ready to be seen.

 

[Strozzi]

Just to add a little something on the sexual habits of 20 year old students, The Daily Hate (The Daily Mail!) printed a story today about a girl who won an online competition to find the UK's 'horniest student'. She says she's had sex with 2-3 people per week since she's been a student.

Tell her to stay out of Italy. She qualifies to be the next person charged with being the Monster of Florence.

 

[NancyS]

I'm not sure that evidence is available.

And although Nancy might be right on in her "diagnosis" of Rudy, I think we are in danger of doing the same things to Rudy that the guilters do to Amanda.

Yes, Rudy is guilty of this horrible crime. For that, there is no doubt. But speculation based on the very little that is known about Rudy, much of which may be specious exaggeration, may not be all that productive.

Definitely, I don't think you can really say much more than the most likely killer being a troubled young man - and Rudy would fit this picture.

I'm surprised that more isn't known about him, he really is the forgotten person - even more so than Raffaele.

 

[LondonJohn]

I'm not sure that evidence is available.

And although Nancy might be right on in her "diagnosis" of Rudy, I think we are in danger of doing the same things to Rudy that the guilters do to Amanda.

Yes, Rudy is guilty of this horrible crime. For that, there is no doubt. But speculation based on the very little that is known about Rudy, much of which may be specious exaggeration, may not be all that productive.

I agree.

Guede has been rightly convicted of the murder of Meredith Kercher for no other reason than that there is sufficient credible, reliable evidence directly relating to the murder to prove his guilt beyond all doubt based in reason.

He was incontrovertibly present at the crime scene at or very soon after the murder, as proven by his palm print in Meredith's blood on the pillow found under her body (and his shoe prints in Meredith's blood in the hallway). He was incontrovertibly sexually intimate with Meredith, as proven by the reliable discovery of his DNA inside her genitals. He incontrovertibly searched through her handbag (purse), as proven by the reliable discovery of his DNA on this item. He incontrovertibly went out dancing within a couple of hours of the murder. He incontrovertibly fled to Germany within 48 hours of the murder.

When all of the above is set aside Guede's pathetic "explanation" of merely coming across Meredith's body then panicking, the only reasonable conclusion is that Guede is lying. His presence in the discos of Perugia merely hours after the murder is more than enough in and of itself to condemn his version of events as a lie, before one even starts to consider why he didn't alert the authorities in any way.

And if Guede is lying about being merely an innocent bystander, then the evidence points in only one direction: that Guede was directly involved in the murder (and almost certainly the sexual assault) of Meredith Kercher. That's the only reasonable explanation for the evidence. And that's why Guede's conviction is safe and correct.

All the stuff about Guede's upbringing and alleged character is no more than peripheral to the question of his guilt in the murder. It helps explain it to a degree, and of course it all tends to support his guilt, but it's ultimately of very little worth in the narrow context of the murder itself.

 

[Strozzi]

Rudy Guede's Biography

Definitely, I don't think you can really say much more than the most likely killer being a troubled young man - and Rudy would fit this picture.

I'm surprised that more isn't known about him, he really is the forgotten person - even more so than Raffaele.

Nancy, you may have seen the article about Rudy whch I link below. It is by an American who had been a student in Perugia and was friends with Rudy while there. I cannot vouch for how accurate it is. http://www.gather.com/viewArticle.action?articleId=281474981070613

 

[LondonJohn]

Dr. Hampikian's lab performed some DNA transfer experiments that have not yet been published. If Andrea's requests included her asking for information about those experiments or others in progress, such requests should be opposed. As someone who discusses experimental results prior to publishing them, I really would not want my comments about work in progress made public. There is a time to make scientific results public, and that is when both the experimenter and the reviewers of his or her manuscript are satisfied that the work is ready to be seen.

Yes - the situation you describe is eminently possible.

But I think that Vogt (and various pro-guilt commentators) are being deliberately misleading in any case on this issue. I think that Vogt is being mendacious by simply focussing on one narrow reason given by BSU for refusal of her FOI request. The way she's arguing, it would appear that BSU only gave the "trade secrets" reason for refusal (or, at the very least, the "trade secrets" reason was the main one for refusal).

The truth, however, is that BSU gave FOUR separate reasons for refusal of her request, and the first (and most important/relevant of these) was attorney/client privilege. In fact, reading the BSU refusal letter, it's entirely possible that the "trade secrets" refusal only covered part of what Vogt was requesting - but by that point it was moot, since the entirely of Vogt's request was being refused on "attorney/client privilege" grounds already.

 

[Strozzi]

He is wildly off, doesn't have the first clue.

I cannot conceive of her showing off to get attention. That is the polar opposite of how she is. She comes across as a friendly, well-adjusted person, not shy but not at all flamboyant or pushy.

She can be a goof, and she definitely has a broad streak of candor that might not serve her well in certain situations or with certain people.

As for sex, why would she deprive herself of some adventure while she's young? She's not married, she's not religious, and she was on her junior year abroad. It's her damn business, and I don't think it's going to mess up Machiavelli's life. It obviously messes up his head to think about it, but that's not her fault.

Meredith got together with her circle of British girlfriends about 5 nights per week. Meredith's British friend Sophie, who Mignini featured as a witness to testify to friction between Amanda and Meredith and to diss Amanda in court, only met Amanda once before Meredith was killed. The second time Sophie met Amanda was at the police station when Sophie arrived later than some of the others and asked Amanda how Meredith was killed. Amanda gave Sophie a blunt answer and Sophie was offended.

I suspect that Meredith gossiped about Amanda to her British friends. "Guess what my American housemate has in her toilet bag?" Mignini played it.

 

[acbytesla]

I agree.
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All the stuff about Guede's upbringing and alleged character is no more than peripheral to the question of his guilt in the murder. It helps explain it to a degree, and of course it all tends to support his guilt, but it's ultimately of very little worth in the narrow context of the murder itself.

This nails it. Although I think my point actually is that we are not psychiatrists, we're at best amateur sleuths. We haven't interviewed Rudy, and given the fact that much of the information that denigrates Amanda unfairly and very often fictionally, can we really count on what we have heard about Rudy is not that backwards logic and creations in people's mind?

 

[Methos]

I think some of these stories come from witness statements during Rudy's fast track trial and are in the Micheli Report. I am not certain of the accuracy of what is mentioned in this thread with regards to the statements but will try to locate them in the report.

Maybe Machiavelli is familiar with these statements?

You are right, this is from page 24 of this version of the Micheli report:

Le studentesse americane SAVOY REBECCA e AVITAL BENEDEK, deponendo il 22 novembre, dichiaravano di conoscere il GUEDE da circa un mese, per avere frequentato lo stesso gruppo di amici presso i locali notturni di Perugia: in particolare, precisavano di averlo visto per l'ultima volta al "Domus" nella notte fra il 2 e il 3 novembre, quando era stato chiesto un minuto di silenzio per commemorare la ragazza uccisa la notte prima. Non avevano tuttavia un ricordo preciso sul comportamento del giovane in quella circostanza, anche perché avevano bevuto un po' tutti, trattandosi della festa di compleanno di un altro amico: le due statunitensi, alla domanda se avessero mai visto RUDI ubriaco, rispondevano comunque di sì.

Lo stesso giorno, DAVIS GIULIA, altra americana in Italia per motivi di studio, rendeva dichiarazioni in tutto conformi alle due connazionali, sostenendo però di non ricordare se avesse mai visto il GUEDE ubriaco e di essersi trovata proprio intenta a ballare con lui nel momento in cui era stato chiesto il raccoglimento per MEREDITH: a quel punto, mentre un'altra ragazza le si era avvicinata per spiegarle cosa stesse accadendo, la DAVIS aveva notato che RUDI era rimasto impassibile.

The source for the "cocaine dealer's number on Amanda Knox' phone" seems to be this article from the Giornale dell'Umbria dated Jan 14th, 2011:

 

[Grinder]

Nancy, you may have seen the article about Rudy whch I link below. It is by an American who had been a student in Perugia and was friends with Rudy while there. I cannot vouch for how accurate it is. http://www.gather.com/viewArticle.action?articleId=281474981070613

Patrick King was not a student in Perugia but rather is a FOA type. He has long been in the FOA camp.

Perhaps BW or some other posters here could give us more detail.

 

[Strozzi]

Patrick King was not a student in Perugia but rather is a FOA type. He has long been in the FOA camp.

Perhaps BW or some other posters here could give us more detail.

Grinder, thank you for correcting that. There is an American male who studied in Perugia and knew Rudy. I thought it is Patrick King. My mistake.

 

[Grinder]

Dr. Hampikian's lab performed some DNA transfer experiments that have not yet been published. If Andrea's requests included her asking for information about those experiments or others in progress, such requests should be opposed. As someone who discusses experimental results prior to publishing them, I really would not want my comments about work in progress made public. There is a time to make scientific results public, and that is when both the experimenter and the reviewers of his or her manuscript are satisfied that the work is ready to be seen.

Public disclosure requests generally require giving everything that doesn't meet an exception and listing documents that are excepted and a reason why they are not being disclosed.

The described "experiment" seemed more of a high school science project but could earn an exception.

Maybe you should keep your lips sealed if you want your work to stay secret. Btw, his work wasn't in progress as I read it.

I don't think that work that was publicly funded should allowed to be used by a defendant, if that work isn't publicly available. The public should know how their taxes are being spent and in a timely manner. If a college professor is hired to do outside work, he should compensate the institution for any use of their facilities beyond such basics as his office and phone. I know for a fact that public employee's cell phones provided to them are open for public disclosure including all numbers they connected with.

Is anybody aware of how Innocence Projects are funded? Generally they go after old cases and probably want their work to be publicized.

 

[Grinder]

Grinder, thank you for correcting that. There is an American male who studied in Perugia and knew Rudy. I thought it is Patrick King. My mistake.

Actually that guy is referenced in the story. Oleinikov.

My fault for being too strong - I just get frustrated at the circles of information on both sides.

Recently Candace was referenced as the source of information she would likely never have discovered from Seattle, where she spent the vast majority of time during this whole case.

Was it that Rudy didn't do well with the ladies? Now if the part about Rudy being a good dancer and finding partners easily as well as the Italian girlfriend aspects of King's story are accurate that would bring the label into question.

ETA - went back and checked and it was about Rudy dancing while a moment of silence or no movement was requested in a club. I have no idea if the poster here was correct that Candace was the one that reported it but if she did one would have to ask how she was the one to discover it.

ETA2 - Methos posted this above in Italian The American students SAVOY REBECCA and AVITAL BENEDEK , deposing November 22 , claimed to know the GUEDE for about a month , to have attended the same group of friends at the nightlife of Perugia : in particular , STATED I saw him for the last time at the " Domus " in the night between 2 and 3 November , when he was asked for a minute of silence to commemorate the murdered girl the night before . They had , however, a precise memory on the behavior of young in that circumstance , because they had drunk a bit 'all , being the birthday party of another friend: two Americans , when asked if they had ever seen RUDI drunk, however responded yes .

The same day, DAVIS GIULIA , another American in Italy for study , made ​​statements conform completely to the two compatriots , claiming , however, could not remember if he ever saw the GUEDE drunk and that he had found their intent to dance with him at the moment who had been asked by the recollection MEREDITH : at that point, while the other girl had approached him to explain what was happening, he had noticed that the DAVIS RUDI remained impassive .

The part of this story that is strange is that if it was a moment of silence what was he dancing to?

Very odd names for Americans I might add, not impossible for sure but odd.

So it would appear that Candace wasn't the source which makes sense.

 

[Methos]

[...]

Recently Candace was referenced as the source of information she would likely never have discovered from Seattle, where she spent the vast majority of time during this whole case.

Was it that Rudy didn't do well with the ladies? Now if the part about Rudy being a good dancer and finding partners easily as well as the Italian girlfriend aspects of King's story are accurate that would bring the label into question.

ETA - went back and checked and it was about Rudy dancing while a moment of silence or no movement was requested in a club. I have no idea if the poster here was correct that Candace was the one that reported it but if she did one would have to ask how she was the one to discover it.

See my post above. I think the reason for the "Rudy Guede danced during the moment of silence" story is the same as for many of the stories about Knox and Sollecito, first a bad translation and then the desire to add a little to spice up the story and give it some meaning...

ETA: on the bad translation thing:
Italian:

Non avevano tuttavia un ricordo preciso sul comportamento del giovane in quella circostanza, anche perché avevano bevuto un po' tutti, trattandosi della festa di compleanno di un altro amico:

google English:

They had , however, a precise memory on the behavior of young in that circumstance, because they had drunk a bit 'all, being the birthday party of another friend:

If the text fed to google translate isn't too long google translate offers alternative translation to phrases as for "Non avevano" "They had not" which in the sentence above would make more sense...

 

[Bill Williams]

Patrick King was not a student in Perugia but rather is a FOA type. He has long been in the FOA camp.

Perhaps BW or some other posters here could give us more detail.

I've double checked the secret Gogerty-Marriott FOA membership roll and he's not on it.

Yet it could that us middle level operatives don't get to see the "For Eyes Only" stuff. Sorry.

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

Ok, ok, I get it.... religious people in some countries make it seem that the sum total of theological inquiry is to control sexual behaviour.

It sometimes looks that way to spectators.

In any case, she was not moored to any particular belief system and she was experimenting. Over the course of several weeks she had a series of experiences that didn't cause any major problems, but didn't fulfill her hopes. Then she met a perfect gentleman who she could trust, just what she was looking for.

All of this makes perfect sense to me. I don't see it as the least bit unusual or indicative of a troubled personality. I also see it as none of my business. I met her through her family, and after getting to know her panic-stricken mother quite well. I am fated to view Amanda Knox as someone who is important to a whole lot of people for reasons that have nothing to do with her sex appeal.

 

[Supernaut]

He is wildly off, doesn't have the first clue.

I cannot conceive of her showing off to get attention. That is the polar opposite of how she is. She comes across as a friendly, well-adjusted person, not shy but not at all flamboyant or pushy.

She can be a goof, and she definitely has a broad streak of candor that might not serve her well in certain situations or with certain people.

As for sex, why would she deprive herself of some adventure while she's young? She's not married, she's not religious, and she was on her junior year abroad. It's her damn business, and I don't think it's going to mess up Machiavelli's life. It obviously messes up his head to think about it, but that's not her fault.

Lol - superb.

At least - he's trying REALLY hard to make it "mess up his head".

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

Grinder, thank you for correcting that. There is an American male who studied in Perugia and knew Rudy. I thought it is Patrick King. My mistake.

Back in 2008, a woman from New Zealand posted as Oceania on Candace's blog and on some other boards. Her son spent some time in Perugia and knew Guede. You might be thinking of him. Patrick King is well past his collegiate years.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

tertiary transfer

The described "experiment" seemed more of a high school science project but could earn an exception.

Maybe you should keep your lips sealed if you want your work to stay secret. Btw, his work wasn't in progress as I read it.

IIUC the experiment described would indicate tertiary transfer of DNA. I have only found one reference to tertiary transfer in the published literature, and some have implied that it is unimportant forensically. Therefore, it is anything but a high school science project. MOO.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

Vroom

I've double checked the secret Gogerty-Marriott FOA membership roll and he's not on it.

Yet it could that us middle level operatives don't get to see the "For Eyes Only" stuff. Sorry.

Let's put it this way. Bruce Fisher drives a Ferrari thanks to the supertanker; Patrick King drives a '67 Rambler. Seriously, what is an
"FOA type?" This is getting ridiculous.