Continuation Part Six: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

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I forget whether it's Seattle or Portland OR that lays claim to "inventing" grunge rock music......

I'd say Seattle..but you might say it is shared. Most of those Grunge bands are from the Seattle area, but the two cities are close enough that the bands played in both places a lot. Kurt Cobain and Krist Novoselic or Nirvana are from Aberdeen, WA which is a lot closer to Portland than Seattle.
Wikipedia gives the credit to Seattle.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grunge
 
I agree, Supernaut. I like all our new posters -- kwill, andreajo, Strozzi, just to name a few. They are insightful and have the JREF "in a friendly and lively way ethos" down pat. GreyFox and NancyS, too, although they have been around awhile.

I hope it's a new dawn, not a false one!
 
They don't actually grow cocoa beans in Italy. Unfortunately cocoa beans are only grown in South America, Mexico, Africa and Indonesia. The sad thing is that cocoa only grows in very select regions and that is why it's price is skyrocketing. For all the bragging that some places, like Switzerland, Italy, Belgium, Hershey, PA, the fact is all they do is refine the beans which is essentially roasting and grinding the beans.

Italy, Belgium Switzerland, Italy etc do not necessarily makes better chocolate than the others, since they all import their cocoa from the same places. However, some places do use more cocoa beans in their chocolate. (One of my closest friends is a chocolatier and baker. He was the head chocolatier at Dilletante in Seattle and he started Costco's Kirkland brand chocolates. What Perugia probably has is some excellent chocolatiers that make fabulous truffles, etc.

Damn, how I do love chocolate..you guys got me thinking about it.


I am *ahem* aware that they don't grow cocoa beans in Italy :p

Getting good beans (i.e. well-grown, well-fermented and well-dried Criollo or Trinitario beans) is an art in itself: all the good producers have people on the ground in the tropics all the time to monitor quality. Your suggestion that "all beans are the same" is incorrect, I can assure you. As I said before, the mass-market* producers use cheaper, blander Forastero beans almost exclusively (yes, there are different varietals of cocoa bean!), and tend to buy them on the open commodities markets. The top producers, on the other hand, deal direct with individual plantations that harvest the best beans in the best conditions, and who would never dream of selling to the mass-market producers. These artisan beans cost an awful lot more at the plantation gate than the vast homogenous lorry-loads that the mass-market producers receive each day.

But even aside from getting the best beans, there's an extraordinary art to roasting, crushing, rolling, blending, conching, tempering and setting them - all of which takes place on the producer's premises rather than in or near the growing plantations. The roasting and conching processes are especially critical to the quality of the finished product.

All chocolate requires extra fat to be added to the crushed bean in order to produce the correct emulsion, and of course sugar is required to offset the bitterness of the bean. Cheaper producers (including Perugina) add vegetable fats and a high proportion of sugar - resulting in a chocolate that, while shiny and with a good "crack", has a particular sticky mouth-feel and a bland, sweet taste.

In contrast, the best producers add additional cocoa butter to the crushed beans (when cocoa beans are crushed, they produce cocoa butter and cocoa solids), and a much smaller ratio of sugar. The resulting product is true high-quality chocolate: a rich, buttery, smooth mouth-feel, and the full flavour of cacao with only a small contribution of balancing sweetness.

Ooops, I'm off-piste again! No more chocolate diversions, I promise


* By the way, "mass-market" refers to pretty much every single high-volume chocolate producer in the world. Including the "higher-end-mass-market" producers such as Suchard or Lindt. What I'm talking about when I refer to top-end chocolate producers is a tiny number of very small producers around the world, who produce in comparatively tiny volumes and are therefore never seen in supermarkets or advertising anywhere. I would guess that most people have never heard of ANY of the true high-end chocolate producers. There are probably no more than two dozen in all, based across the world. Perhaps the one that people are most likely to have heard of is the French producer Valrhona.
 
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I wonder if there is a confusion between Italian and Anglo-Saxon meanings of honour? In the UK honours just means the number of credits in your degree course. I do not really understand the US system with sophomores and summa cum laude etc. but I guess it is similar. Historical digression; originally degrees were 3 years with a fourth honours year (they still are in Scotland), in England the narrow but deep A level syllabus gave exemption from the first university year giving rise to the three year honours degree. In the final year one does a research project which with luck might wind in to your doctorate. Medicine technically is not an honours degree, you pass or fail but don't get first or second class honours etc. In the UK medicine is an undergraduate course, you get a bachelor of medicine degree. Thus my mum is a 'proper' doctor despite having no doctorate and I am not a 'proper' doctor despite having a PhD. FWIW my mother actually qualified as a doctor with no degree at all but as an apothecary - LMSSA - although she did get her degree on retakes! I don't know if you still can but in her day there were three options to qualify medically, as an apothecary, via the college of physicians and surgeons exam LRCP MRCS, and with a university degree. So I do think discussions about whether someone is entitled to be called a doctor or not is silly. Even sillier in the UK is when 'proper' doctors qualify as surgeons they revert to being called Mr. (or Miss) as a historical hangover from when surgeons were not medically qualified (and I guess if you were female and a surgeon you wouldn't be married).
 
Point of order, Mr Speaker:

Perugia categorically does NOT produce world-class chocolate. It is famous as the home of the Perugina company (now owned by Nestle), which produces mass-market chocolate. Perugina's chocolate is of decent but unspectacular quality - in much the same way as Cadbury chocolate in the UK or even Hershey in the US.

But "world-class" it most certainly is not. For world-class chocolate in Italy, one has to look to the mighty Amedei in Pontedera, Tuscany. Amedei sources its cacao from individual highly-vetted estates across the world, and almost exclusively uses only Trinitario or Criollo beans - rather than the far blander (but higher-yield) Forastero variety used by virtually every mass-market chocolate manufacturer (including Perugina).

I've visited Amedei and and met Cecilia Tessieri (the founder and master-chocolatier of the company) - as well as several other of the most prestigious chocolate conchers/manufacturers in the world. Perugina is not one of them.

As you might tell, I'm quite interested in high-quality chocolate :D

I will defer to your interest and expertise.

My taste in chocolate runs to generic Swiss Miss from Costco. It's cheap.

I have never actually eaten chocolate manufactured in Perugia.

I should have said, "a reputation for world-class chocolate."

The tunnels are fascinating, though. That I can confirm.
 
You got a PhD, you're a proper doctor. It's the medical upstarts who are the fraudsters!

Rolfe.
 
On the second night the club stopped the music and asked everyone to pause for a moment of silence in memory of Meredith. Everyone stopped but Rudy, who conspicuously remained on the dance floor dancing by himself.


I assume this is a joke?
 
I am *ahem* aware that they don't grow cocoa beans in Italy :p

Getting good beans (i.e. well-grown, well-fermented and well-dried Criollo or Trinitario beans) is an art in itself: all the good producers have people on the ground in the tropics all the time to monitor quality. Your suggestion that "all beans are the same" is incorrect, I can assure you. As I said before, the mass-market producers use cheaper, blander Forastero beans almost exclusively (yes, there are different varietals of cocoa bean!), and tend to buy them on the open commodities markets. The top producers, on the other hand, deal direct with individual plantations that harvest the best beans in the best conditions.

But even aside from getting the best beans, there's an extraordinary art to roasting, crushing, rolling, blending, conching, tempering and setting them - all of which takes place on the producer's premises rather than in or near the growing plantations. The roasting and conching processes are especially critical to the quality of the finished product.

All chocolate requires extra fat to be added to the crushed bean in order to produce the correct emulsion, and of course sugar is required to offset the bitterness of the bean. Cheaper producers (including Perugina) add vegetable fats and a high proportion of sugar - resulting in a chocolate that, while shiny and with a good "crack", has a particular sticky mouth-feel and a bland, sweet taste.

In contrast, the best producers add additional cocoa butter to the crushed beans (when cocoa beans are crushed, they produce cocoa butter and cocoa solids), and a much smaller ratio of sugar. The resulting product is true high-quality chocolate: a rich, buttery, smooth mouth-feel, and the full flavour of cacao with only a small contribution of balancing sweetness.

Ooops, I'm off-piste again! No more chocolate diversions, I promise!

Your taste buds must be more refined than mine. And maybe I haven't tasted these special Criollo or Trinitario beans. I absolutely loved the fantastic truffles my buddy made. I do know that the "raw" bulk chocolate he bought for Costco was Belgium which he said was very spendy.

A little article about what is happening in the chocolate industry and how two big companies are cornering the market.

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2013/11/11/the_rise_of_big_chocolate
 
I wonder if there is a confusion between Italian and Anglo-Saxon meanings of honour? In the UK honours just means the number of credits in your degree course. I do not really understand the US system with sophomores and summa cum laude etc. but I guess it is similar. Historical digression; originally degrees were 3 years with a fourth honours year (they still are in Scotland), in England the narrow but deep A level syllabus gave exemption from the first university year giving rise to the three year honours degree. In the final year one does a research project which with luck might wind in to your doctorate. Medicine technically is not an honours degree, you pass or fail but don't get first or second class honours etc. In the UK medicine is an undergraduate course, you get a bachelor of medicine degree. Thus my mum is a 'proper' doctor despite having no doctorate and I am not a 'proper' doctor despite having a PhD. FWIW my mother actually qualified as a doctor with no degree at all but as an apothecary - LMSSA - although she did get her degree on retakes! I don't know if you still can but in her day there were three options to qualify medically, as an apothecary, via the college of physicians and surgeons exam LRCP MRCS, and with a university degree. So I do think discussions about whether someone is entitled to be called a doctor or not is silly. Even sillier in the UK is when 'proper' doctors qualify as surgeons they revert to being called Mr. (or Miss) as a historical hangover from when surgeons were not medically qualified (and I guess if you were female and a surgeon you wouldn't be married).

That's very interesting & it seems there are similarities and differences between what you describe and the USA system.

Here, "honor student" refers only to one who maintains a specific grade point average (GPA) over time. It has nothing to do with the course of study. I can be an honor student in physics, or in dance, or in foreign languages.

The lowest GPA required to claim the title of honor student is 3.5 (B+/A-) on a scale of 0-4. When graduates march down the aisle in commencement ceremonies to be handed their degrees, their honors status is displayed by the color of sash they're given. No sash = no honors, but of course they still have the degree. The levels of honor (reflecting only overall GPA, remember) are cum laude, magna cum laude, and summa cum laude. I forget what the cutoff is between the first two, but the last one means that every single report card for every single credit in every single class over four years of study was nothing but As.

As you might guess, it's quite hard to achieve that level of discipline.

When we say that Amanda Knox was an honor student, we're simply saying that she had a very high GPA. You can't maintain a 3.5 unless every 3 (B) is matched by a 4 (A). And I can tell you from experience that earning 4s at the UW is evidence that you're either very bright, very hard-working, very lucky, or all three, depending on the level of difficulty of the degree you're trying to earn.

Foreign language degrees are seen as difficult here in the USA, where most people speak only English and write it not very well at all.

---

@ Supernaut. Thank you! Long time lurker, but by now I've read all the books published about this case and become familiar with many of the people who have expertise but only write in these forums. I really think this Machiavelli character's intelligence is overrated.
 
No, Yimyammer, it is no joke. Rudy danced by himself on the dance floor while everyone else stopped for a moment of silence in memory of the slain girl. One could assume all eyes were on him.


Wow! The case that keeps on giving..where did this story source from?

thx
 
Wow! The case that keeps on giving..where did this story source from?

thx

Well now - in 2013 this is almost apocryphal.

It's was "reported" years back, contemporaneously, i.e. c.2008, and now someone will have to dig deep for 'cites'.
 
Well now - in 2013 this is almost apocryphal.

It's was "reported" years back, contemporaneously, i.e. c.2008, and now someone will have to dig deep for 'cites'.

It's in Candace Dempsey's book "Murder in Italy".

"But that night Rudy once again headed to the Domus. When the disk jockey asked for a moment of silence to honor Meredith, Rudy kept dancing. Meridith's friend said the extroverted young man was dancing alone.

People kept their distance from him because he smelled liked hadn't washed."
 
Point of order, Mr Speaker:

Perugia categorically does NOT produce world-class chocolate. It is famous as the home of the Perugina company (now owned by Nestle), which produces mass-market chocolate. Perugina's chocolate is of decent but unspectacular quality - in much the same way as Cadbury chocolate in the UK or even Hershey in the US.

But "world-class" it most certainly is not. For world-class chocolate in Italy, one has to look to the mighty Amedei in Pontedera, Tuscany. Amedei sources its cacao from individual highly-vetted estates across the world, and almost exclusively uses only Trinitario or Criollo beans - rather than the far blander (but higher-yield) Forastero variety used by virtually every mass-market chocolate manufacturer (including Perugina).

I've visited Amedei and and met Cecilia Tessieri (the founder and master-chocolatier of the company) - as well as several other of the most prestigious chocolate conchers/manufacturers in the world. Perugina is not one of them.

As you might tell, I'm quite interested in high-quality chocolate :D

With all due respect, you can't possibly be a chocolate connoisseur, or you wouldn't consider Hershey's chocolate to be decent. I, on the other hand, am a real chocolate snob!
 
I am *ahem* aware that they don't grow cocoa beans in Italy :p

Getting good beans (i.e. well-grown, well-fermented and well-dried Criollo or Trinitario beans) is an art in itself: all the good producers have people on the ground in the tropics all the time to monitor quality. Your suggestion that "all beans are the same" is incorrect, I can assure you. As I said before, the mass-market* producers use cheaper, blander Forastero beans almost exclusively (yes, there are different varietals of cocoa bean!), and tend to buy them on the open commodities markets. The top producers, on the other hand, deal direct with individual plantations that harvest the best beans in the best conditions, and who would never dream of selling to the mass-market producers. These artisan beans cost an awful lot more at the plantation gate than the vast homogenous lorry-loads that the mass-market producers receive each day.

But even aside from getting the best beans, there's an extraordinary art to roasting, crushing, rolling, blending, conching, tempering and setting them - all of which takes place on the producer's premises rather than in or near the growing plantations. The roasting and conching processes are especially critical to the quality of the finished product.

All chocolate requires extra fat to be added to the crushed bean in order to produce the correct emulsion, and of course sugar is required to offset the bitterness of the bean. Cheaper producers (including Perugina) add vegetable fats and a high proportion of sugar - resulting in a chocolate that, while shiny and with a good "crack", has a particular sticky mouth-feel and a bland, sweet taste.

In contrast, the best producers add additional cocoa butter to the crushed beans (when cocoa beans are crushed, they produce cocoa butter and cocoa solids), and a much smaller ratio of sugar. The resulting product is true high-quality chocolate: a rich, buttery, smooth mouth-feel, and the full flavour of cacao with only a small contribution of balancing sweetness.

Ooops, I'm off-piste again! No more chocolate diversions, I promise


* By the way, "mass-market" refers to pretty much every single high-volume chocolate producer in the world. Including the "higher-end-mass-market" producers such as Suchard or Lindt. What I'm talking about when I refer to top-end chocolate producers is a tiny number of very small producers around the world, who produce in comparatively tiny volumes and are therefore never seen in supermarkets or advertising anywhere. I would guess that most people have never heard of ANY of the true high-end chocolate producers. There are probably no more than two dozen in all, based across the world. Perhaps the one that people are most likely to have heard of is the French producer Valrhona.

Never mind. Maybe I didn't know as much about chocolate as I thought. :o
 
It's in Candace Dempsey's book "Murder in Italy".

Dempsey isn't going to convince anyone who doesn't already get it.

Where did she get this info?

Did Burleigh mention it, given she "went deep"?

Not that it's credible that someone just made up an arbitrary story about Guede "smelling bad".

As I've already said, it makes perfect sense:

Guede probably had only one pair of "smart" shoes - one just happened to have been soaked in a mixture of blood and water, he'd been wearing this damp shoe for over a day, so it stank to high-heaven by Friday evening.
 
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Mary_H said:
You may not have a moral judgment about it, but that doesn't stop you from using Amanda's personal history to smear her, just as Mignini did. Without making everything about Amanda's personality look bad, he had no case. (...)

To me it's not "bad", it's only compatible with a scenario of her involvement in a crime based on a contact/relation between her and Rudy Guede.

It's been 20 hours since Machiavelli's last post.
 
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