Continuation Part Six: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

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She could have told them exactly what records she had already deposited. If she kept the extensive records you assume she kept, then it would have been a trivial matter of a few moments.

Then she will simply have to deposit records (that should already have been deposited and are alledged to have been deposited already) twice. If she HAD already deposited them, then a simple "Here are the records you asked for, and additional files are available at Case Knox, ident 08/10/2007 Stefanoni" (or however chancellery/depository files their cases) would have been adequate and logical.

Tough titties what Stefanoni 'wants'. She was asked for all files related to the testing. Until she identifies and hands over the files, no-one outside of her lab can be expected to make an explicit per-file request in the way Stefanoni wants.

She could have easily recorded all this information without anyone making an explicit request.

Example:

V: "Give us the files related to testing in the Knox case"
S: "Sure! The files related to testing are Knox 1 through to Knox 367, with machine controls DGE051107 through to DGE111107. I have attached them for your convenience. The others are under deposition reference Case Knox, Ident Stefanoni"

When I give people a requested file, it is MY legal, professional, contractual, logical and moral duty to be the one that includes the explicit information. Case number, assessor name, client ID, location. None of this has to be explicitly requested for me to release the files or know which one they're on about as long as I'm reasonably sure they; have permission to received the report, the report is the one they're asking for.


A very weak objection. Stefanoni could easily have sent named files in the way you suggest at absoultely zero additional cost to herself.

One way you've shot yourself in the foot : if Stefanoni was as thorough as you allege she was, it would have been trivial and habitual for her to be thorough in her replies to V and include information about the documents supposedly in deposition.

Utterly trivial.

There's no way could Stefanoni have been following the case and not know C=V were going to review her work. If she didn;t submit it all for review, then it's tough luck for her when they turn around and point out that they didn;t have it all for review.


I completely agree.

It's a ludicrous notion that Stefanoni would have been morally and ethically justified in playing this sort of cat-and-mouse game with Vecchiotti. Like you say, the very least that Stefanoni should have responded to Vecchiotti was something like: "Much of the stuff you need can be found in the court records, but here's the additional stuff that you need."

Frankly, though, the professional (and ethically-correct) thing to do would have been for Stefanoni to provide Vecchiotti with a "bundle" containing copies of every single piece of information that she (Stefanoni) had in her archives related to the testing of the knife and bra clasp -regardless of what might or might not already exist within the court record.

And, equally frankly, the way in which Stefanoni appears to have actually responded to Vecchiotti's repeated requests tends to suggest that Stefanoni might have known that she had something to hide......
 
They'd gone missing. They remained missing through the summer recess, when lo and behold Stefanoni found them in her garage.

Near as I can tell, Mach's transcript is merely the prelude to a drama that went on for months. In the final act, we learned that if Vechiotti had wanted the negative controls, she would have had to have searched Stefanoni's garage.

What would official public records be doing in Stefanoni's garage? That alone would get this evidence thrown out in most American courts. It would also almost assuredly result in an investigation into the procedures of Stefanoni and her lab and its practices.
 
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I believe the child killer Huntley and his wife (U.K crime) left absolutely no trace of anything once they had cleaned their house.


Huntley did leave small traces of one of the girls' blood in or around his bath, IIRC, and claimed that the girls had come to his house and one of them had had a nosebleed. And since there was no reason for either of the girls to have ever innocently visited his house at any time, and no evidence that either of them had ever been in his house before, and given the very unlikely coincidence of one of them having a nosebleed on the one and only short occasion that she'd been inside the house (let alone the upstairs bathroom), this was quite strong evidence against Huntley in its own regard.

(And BTW his partner, Maxine Carr, was never linked in any way to the murder itself, and was never charged with murder. She was, however, convicted of perverting the course of justice for providing a false alibi for Huntley - although it was accepted by the courts (IIRC) that she did so because she believed Huntley to be innocent).

But make no mistake, it's not difficult to remove incriminating forensic evidence from a crime scene and/or non-ballistics weapon (i.e. not a gun) if you are in any way methodical and know which general areas you need to clean. Even a mild bleach solution, if applied with any sort of care and accuracy, will destroy all blood and denature all DNA, leaving only a bleach residue. And it's likely that a perp could explain a bleach residue by claiming it was the simple product of regular domestic cleaning. Even a decent surfectant/disinfectant would have the same effect, but bleach would all but guarantee complete trace removal.

Similarly, latent prints are extremely easy to remove with as little as a quick wipe with a cloth - and in any case they're actually quite difficult to deposit in the first place unless the part making the print is wet with some medium such as blood.

If Knox and Sollecito HAD been conducting a post-crime clean up, it would have been trivially easy for them to have filled a bucket with a good solution of surfectant/disinfactant and/or ordinary household bleach in warm water,then mopped/wiped every surface and floor that they wanted to clean up. They would have then disposed of the dirty water down a drain, washed out the sinks/bidet/shower with hot water (and/or bleach or surfectant/disinfectant), and sat down with a cup of tea.

But anyhow, in my opinion, the very presence of visible blood drips in the bidet and sink of the small bathroom in and of itself puts paid to any notion of a post-murder clean up. Not even a deranged and panicking first-time killer would conduct the sort of clean-up alleged by prosecutors, then either neglect or forget to clean down the sinks and bidets where there were immediately-visible blood traces. And Knox and Sollecito were supposed to have had most of the night and all the next morning to check for such blindingly-obvious things.

There was no crime scene clean-up of any description in my opinion - outside of a clear and clumsy attempt to mop up some of the blood within Meredith's room. Which was done by Guede, in my opinion. Unfortunately, we'll never have even the possibility of knowing who might have done this in-room blood mopping, since the expert Patrizia Stefanoni left the towels in question in a wet heap, causing them to mould and become useless for forensic analysis. Well done Ms Stefanoni!
 
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What would official public records be doing in Stefanoni's garage? That alone would get this evidence thrown out in most American courts. It would also almost assuredly result in an investigation into the procedures of Stefanoni and her lab and its practices.


Yes - if all of this is even remotely accurate, then it casts even more light on Stefanoni's sloppiness and mishandling of critical forensic data, in a MURDER TRIAL no less!!

Thanks to Wildhorses for supplying this additional information.
 
What would official public records be doing in Stefanoni's garage? That alone would get this evidence thrown out in most American courts. It would also almost assuredly result in an investigation into the procedures of Stefanoni and her lab and its practices.

Don't you remember this incident? Of course, public data shouldn't be in a garage. It shouldn't be lost by the woman who did the DNA analysis either.

I just googled "Comodi garage" and got this blog post by Doug Bremner. But I'm sure I have half dozen news articles on file with Comodi quotes about finding the data in the garage.

http://www.beforeyoutakethatpill.com/index.php/2011/09/06/court-resumes-in-amanda-knox-trial/

"Stefanoni claimed she had the control data all along, and tried to present it in court. Prosecutor Comodi said they found it in a garage."
 
Mach wrote 20 pages about Vecchiotti neglecting to check the case file...

It's a ridiculous claim. The court, itself, didn't find the negative controls in the case file. And no wonder, Stefanoni TOLD THE COURT she didn't file the negative controls.
 
This bomb threat coincidence is amazing. Has Machiavelli ever commented on it and if so what did he say about it? Has Machiavelli ever made an attempt to learn more about it? Can Machiavelli confirm that the tape of the call reporting the bomb threat has never been released?

In the midst of making this post I went off looking for information about the bomb threat. and I remembered reading through a discussion of it here. The consensus here as I recall was that it really was just an amazing coincidence. I took a rough shot at trying to figure out how unlikely the coincidence was but I found somebody that had done a more credible job here:
http://www.injusticeanywhereforum.o...&p=23071&sid=db79714ec4bb31ac8db915986d97b2d9

What the author of the post came up with was this:



Pretty darnn unlikely assuming Perugia has a similar rate of hoax bomb threats to that of British Columbia. Unfortunately, I continued reading through the thread and now my mind is awash with conspiracy theories about the bomb threat and the discarding and finding of the phones. One common theme to a lot of the conspiracy theories was that Guede was a police informant. I notice a poster by the name of Charlie Wilkes said he thought that a kid in Rome that had been making prank calls was the likely answer and that the bomb threat was probably a coincidence. That wasn't the only coincidence discussed in the thread, the parked car was also mentioned. Also a strange coincidence. I suppose that the people that are very familiar with this case have been aware of these unexplained coincidences for awhile. Do they think there is much chance that these unexplained coincidences have some kind of significant connection to this case beyond the coincidence of their occurence?

I think the parked car turned out to be someone who was a friend of the people with the broken down car.

The bomb threat doesn't map to anything else. You have to create a wild scenario with no other evidence, like Machiavelli's sliding towel theory to make the luminol fit.

This falls into the realm of statistical theory, which I read about somewhere long ago and remember only the gist of it. It's the inverse of the cluster/causation problem, where a normal distribution over a large area will include random clusters. If 100 people have some connection to an event, what are the chances one or two of them report an unusual experience around the same time?

I run across red herrings in lots of crime stories. The Scott Peterson case has a couple... the burglary across the street, the pawned watch. I also see cases where the cops are thinking "this has to be the guy" with good reason but it doesn't pan out. The Green River case had a couple of red herring suspects, the cab driver and the trapper.

Here are some interesting facts:

Amanda Knox and OJ Simpson were born on the same date.

They were both acquitted on the same date.
 
Don't you remember this incident? Of course, public data shouldn't be in a garage. It shouldn't be lost by the woman who did the DNA analysis either.

I just googled "Comodi garage" and got this blog post by Doug Bremner. But I'm sure I have half dozen news articles on file with Comodi quotes about finding the data in the garage.

http://www.beforeyoutakethatpill.com/index.php/2011/09/06/court-resumes-in-amanda-knox-trial/

"Stefanoni claimed she had the control data all along, and tried to present it in court. Prosecutor Comodi said they found it in a garage."

I do remember the incident and I asked this question then. I just noticed it again in your post...so I decided it could use repeating. There is nothing about Stefanoni's procedures that leads one to believe she is a professional. Machiavelli will of course come to her defense and either deny the incident or downplay it with a morass of incomprehensible logic.
 
I think the parked car turned out to be someone who was a friend of the people with the broken down car.

The bomb threat doesn't map to anything else. You have to create a wild scenario with no other evidence, like Machiavelli's sliding towel theory to make the luminol fit.

This falls into the realm of statistical theory, which I read about somewhere long ago and remember only the gist of it. It's the inverse of the cluster/causation problem, where a normal distribution over a large area will include random clusters. If 100 people have some connection to an event, what are the chances one or two of them report an unusual experience around the same time?

I run across red herrings in lots of crime stories. The Scott Peterson case has a couple... the burglary across the street, the pawned watch. I also see cases where the cops are thinking "this has to be the guy" with good reason but it doesn't pan out. The Green River case had a couple of red herring suspects, the cab driver and the trapper.

Here are some interesting facts:

Amanda Knox and OJ Simpson were born on the same date.

They were both acquitted on the same date.


Exactly. What we perceive as amazing coincidences are often nothing of the sort, mainly owing to the way our brains have evolved to perceive the world around us.

A classic and often-cited example is that if you pick 23 people at random, there is a greater than 50% chance that two of them will share the same birthday. "AMAZING!", you might think. But if you work through the maths, it's absolutely true. And if you test it experimentally, it's true. I remember that someone in the UK tested it with every football (soccer) fixture in the English league of one particular weekend (around 45 matches), finding out the birthdays of all 22 staring players plus the referee (giving the required 23),and found that indeed in almost exactly half of the matches, two of the players (or the referee) shared a birthday.

(Part of the answer in this case is that you are specifying neither a given player nor a given birthday for the match,meaning that there are a large number of possible permutations, which brings the overall probability down to just over 50%. Many people still cannot believe this statistic to be true though...)
 
[highlight]Huntley did leave small traces of one of the girls' blood in or around his bath, IIRC, and claimed that the girls had come to his house and one of them had had a nosebleed.[/highlight] And since there was no reason for either of the girls to have ever innocently visited his house at any time, and no evidence that either of them had ever been in his house before, and given the very unlikely coincidence of one of them having a nosebleed on the one and only short occasion that she'd been inside the house (let alone the upstairs bathroom), this was quite strong evidence against Huntley in its own regard.

(And BTW his partner, Maxine Carr, was never linked in any way to the murder itself, and was never charged with murder. She was, however, convicted of perverting the course of justice for providing a false alibi for Huntley - although it was accepted by the courts (IIRC) that she did so because she believed Huntley to be innocent).

But make no mistake, it's not difficult to remove incriminating forensic evidence from a crime scene and/or non-ballistics weapon (i.e. not a gun) if you are in any way methodical and know which general areas you need to clean. Even a mild bleach solution, if applied with any sort of care and accuracy, will destroy all blood and denature all DNA, leaving only a bleach residue. And it's likely that a perp could explain a bleach residue by claiming it was the simple product of regular domestic cleaning. Even a decent surfectant/disinfectant would have the same effect, but bleach would all but guarantee complete trace removal.

Similarly, latent prints are extremely easy to remove with as little as a quick wipe with a cloth - and in any case they're actually quite difficult to deposit in the first place unless the part making the print is wet with some medium such as blood.

If Knox and Sollecito HAD been conducting a post-crime clean up, it would have been trivially easy for them to have filled a bucket with a good solution of surfectant/disinfactant and/or ordinary household bleach in warm water,then mopped/wiped every surface and floor that they wanted to clean up. They would have then disposed of the dirty water down a drain, washed out the sinks/bidet/shower with hot water (and/or bleach or surfectant/disinfectant), and sat down with a cup of tea.

But anyhow, in my opinion, the very presence of visible blood drips in the bidet and sink of the small bathroom in and of itself puts paid to any notion of a post-murder clean up. Not even a deranged and panicking first-time killer would conduct the sort of clean-up alleged by prosecutors, then either neglect or forget to clean down the sinks and bidets where there were immediately-visible blood traces. And Knox and Sollecito were supposed to have had most of the night and all the next morning to check for such blindingly-obvious things.

There was no crime scene clean-up of any description in my opinion - outside of a clear and clumsy attempt to mop up some of the blood within Meredith's room. Which was done by Guede, in my opinion. Unfortunately, we'll never have even the possibility of knowing who might have done this in-room blood mopping, since the expert Patrizia Stefanoni left the towels in question in a wet heap, causing them to mould and become useless for forensic analysis. Well done Ms Stefanoni!

I stand corrected! The news made a fuss at the time at the cleanliness of the house and that's what I picked up on. And Maxine Carr was his partner not his wife as you say. I suppose that makes the point that even if you try your best you can still be careless, but not with one object like a knife, I agree. You would clean it absolutely thoroughly. The Huntley example was that even a relatively dim person like Huntley realised the importance of getting rid of DNA evidence.
 
This falls into the realm of statistical theory, which I read about somewhere long ago and remember only the gist of it. It's the inverse of the cluster/causation problem, where a normal distribution over a large area will include random clusters. If 100 people have some connection to an event, what are the chances one or two of them report an unusual experience around the same time?

I run across red herrings in lots of crime stories. The Scott Peterson case has a couple... the burglary across the street, the pawned watch. I also see cases where the cops are thinking "this has to be the guy" with good reason but it doesn't pan out. The Green River case had a couple of red herring suspects, the cab driver and the trapper.

Here are some interesting facts:

Amanda Knox and OJ Simpson were born on the same date.

They were both acquitted on the same date.


I experience this a lot with the alternative medicine mob. People recover from illness all the time of course, and it's not that uncommon for them to recover more quickly than expected, or even for someone to recover from something they weren't expected to recover from. People also use homoeopathy and other alternative medicines quite often. Nevertheless when the two come together, "how can you say that was a coincidence??!!"

There are two quite stunning coincidences in the Lockerbie evidence, which combine to produce an extraordinarily convincing red herring. I have a great deal of sympathy for the investigators who discovered this, then became convinced it had to be significant. The trouble is, there is irrefutable evidence (which they missed) pointing elsewhere. Unfortunately, human nature being what it is, even when the irrefutable evidence is presented, people still turn to the coincidence and say, "but what about that?"

Exactly. What we perceive as amazing coincidences are often nothing of the sort, mainly owing to the way our brains have evolved to perceive the world around us.


Exactly as you say. The way our brains are wired makes it extremely difficult to recognise an apparently significant coincidence for what it is - simply a coincidence. I think rather a lot of miscarriages of justice can be traced to that one.

Rolfe.
 
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Don't you remember this incident? Of course, public data shouldn't be in a garage. It shouldn't be lost by the woman who did the DNA analysis either.

I just googled "Comodi garage" and got this blog post by Doug Bremner. But I'm sure I have half dozen news articles on file with Comodi quotes about finding the data in the garage.

http://www.beforeyoutakethatpill.com/index.php/2011/09/06/court-resumes-in-amanda-knox-trial/

"Stefanoni claimed she had the control data all along, and tried to present it in court. Prosecutor Comodi said they found it in a garage."

But I wonder why she would have to go to this garage, or whatever, to retrieve control results. The data should exist on Stefanoni's computer or on a disk, in electronic form, and she should be able to push a few buttons on her computer and generate a report showing the control data.
 
Exactly. What we perceive as amazing coincidences are often nothing of the sort, mainly owing to the way our brains have evolved to perceive the world around us.

A classic and often-cited example is that if you pick 23 people at random, there is a greater than 50% chance that two of them will share the same birthday. "AMAZING!", you might think. But if you work through the maths, it's absolutely true. And if you test it experimentally, it's true. I remember that someone in the UK tested it with every football (soccer) fixture in the English league of one particular weekend (around 45 matches), finding out the birthdays of all 22 staring players plus the referee (giving the required 23),and found that indeed in almost exactly half of the matches, two of the players (or the referee) shared a birthday.

(Part of the answer in this case is that you are specifying neither a given player nor a given birthday for the match,meaning that there are a large number of possible permutations, which brings the overall probability down to just over 50%. Many people still cannot believe this statistic to be true though...)

Hehe, this is interesting but note that there is probably a huge bias for the birthdays of football players to be concentrated in the first half of the year to start with.
 
But no it's quite the contrary. Vecchiotti says she did not specifically request them. She states instead that she asked repeatedly... the files related to the testings.
NOT the negative controls.
Vecchiotti says "no". She has a contorted way of saying no, instead of saying that explicitly, she just talks about what she requested. Which, she admits, was not specifically the negative controls.

She never made a specific mention about the negative controls in her e-mails.
It is also clear from her subsequent answer "I don't see why they should not be included".

So you say she asked for "the files related to the testings," but Stefanoni suppressed the controls?

Since the controls are "files related to the testings," then Stefanoni has failed to provide the requested material.

You can make any argument you want about how "specific" the request should have been, but the fact remains that the controls are within the scope of the request that was made (i.e., files related to the testings), and Stefanoni neither produced the controls nor made any argument about insufficient specificity of the request.

Anyway, an argument that the request was insufficiently specific would be BS, since everyone knows that the controls should be in the files related to the tests, and of all the paperwork related to the tests, the controls are among the most important and obviously would be included in a proper disclosure.

This is deceit by Italian law enforcement, plain and simple. A system that allows the prosecution to have complete control over test data, to unilaterally limit the scope of a defendant's discovery requests, to decide what data the defendant should be able to access, and to use the absence of suppressed data to the defendant's disadvantage is neither a fair nor a legitimate system. It's also an illegal system as it has deprived the defendant of equality of arms.

A shameful pit of lying snakes if ever there was one.
 
Hehe, this is interesting but note that there is probably a huge bias for the birthdays of football players to be concentrated in the first half of the year to start with.


I think the point is that coincidences happen all the time. If there's no obvious association and it's clear that is is indeed just a coincidence (like two people finding out they have the same birthday, or in my case finding out that my colleague's two sons have the same birthdays as myself and my mother), we just say "oh my what a coincidence" and let it go.

However, if there's an apparent causative link there, our brains are wired to regard it as significant. Once we see such a link, it's extraordinarily difficult to dismiss it with "oh my what a coincidence" and move on.

Rolfe.
 
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