Continuation Part Six: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[Bill Williams]

No, actually I claimed that I had the impression Barbie Nadeau was an approximate reporter on this case compared to Vogt, but this independently from the gossp that you attribute to her, what you reported her saying about Comodi and Satanic rites.

You are now building a logical connection between my judgement of Nadeau and the particular detail that you attribute to Nadeau: but if I recall correctly this is a misreporting of my words; actually in my words such logical connection doesn't exist. I had the feeling of Nadeau as an approximate reporter on this case, but not because she talked about Satanic rites.



Absolutely not.
On the contrary: I clearly stated that I have never read Nadeau's book.
I think I said that clearly.
How can I talk about something which I didn't read?



You say she says that. Which is quite different.



I may talk about the RIS report. I may talk about the content of Vogt's article if you quote it.
But I am not going to talk about "the thing that Bill Williams says Vogt says about what the RIS report says about what C&V report says".

I have never doubted that last sentence. Yet you talk about all sorts of other stuff in similar circumstances. At length!

Yet when it comes to Andrea Vogt and the RIS Carabinieri report, you go all squirrelly.... why?

 

[moodstream]

,,,

Hi Machiavelli, I have the feeling that I am on a list of people you would prefer not to converse with, in part for the correct reason that I am not as knowledgeable as many if not most of the posters here.

Nevertheless, I am hoping to grab a moment of your time. In trying to catch up on the conversation about luminol and TMB I went back to Massei, and was surprised to conclude that if the TMB tests were made at all, they were made after the samples were tested for DNA.

I base this on the following quote from Dr Massei : Dr. Sarah Gino testified With respect to the Luminol-positive traces found in Romanelli's room, in Knox's room and in the corridor, she stated that by analysing the SAL cards "we learn,in contradiction to what was presented in the technical report deposited by the (257) Scientific Police, and also to what was said in Court, that not only was the Luminol test performed on these traces, but also the generic diagnosis for the presence of blood, using tetramethylbenzidine...and this test...gave a negative result on all the items of evidence from which it was possible to obtain a genetic profile"

Furthermore: The negative result was also partly a consequence of Dr. Stefanoni's choice to use most of the DNA to determine the individual profiles and only the remainder to attempt to determine the nature of the trace.

An explanation for this is found here: Speaking of the traces called footprints in the corridor/ rooms: Analysing the quantification data, Dr Gino added, "we see that the quantity of DNA obtained from the major part of these traces is compatible with low copy number DNA; therefore DNA is present in very small quantities.and it did not appear that the analysis had been repeated to validate the results.

This passage says to me that the technical report deposited by the Scientific Police does not mention a TMB test, and Stefanoni''s testimony did not mention a TMB test. Also, the DNA tested was LCN, so small a sample that the test could not be repeated. But to make the best use of this small sample, most of it was used for the DNA analysis, and only a small portion was reserved for TMB analysis.

Perhaps you can correct me, but I do not see how Stefanoni could determine in the field that all the samples would be low copy number, especially as the luminol glowed with such intensity that it was obvious to her it was blood. The technical report makes no mention of the TMB test, and I suggest that's because it was not done.

What I speculate from this is that people with sources, like Vogt and Nadeau and of course Massei himself, are being told in confidence not to worry about the negative TMB, because there never was a TMB test. (It's negative because if it were positive someone might want to see more documentation.)

Is there any proof from the cottage that TMB tests were made there?
Thanks.

 

[Poppy1016]

Actually she does do that, in my opinion. She does that over the hearings between August and September 2011. But the problem is, you are not putting a corrupt judge into the equation.

Indeed Comodi brought the negative controls, and the chanhellery records; but the judge (Pratillo Helmann) simply declined to accept them, on the ground that "the contamination could have occurred outside the laboratory" (I'm not joking, that was the reason given by Hellmann-Zanetti's court).

On the other hand, Vcchiotti basically refused to read them, saying she couldn't understand them, she would need time to read them, the photocopies were bad, she needed glasses, didn't understand reference pages and so on.

Comodi belied Vecchiotti but the problem is Vecchiotti is only a court's ploy. It's not Vecchiotti cheating alone, it looks like a team game lining up Vecchiotti and the judge.

You accuse a court appointed expert of being a criminal, and now a judge of being corrupt and you say someone is a criminal for saying that Stephony is not a doctor? Hilarious. You should be tried for your more serious crimes.

 

[Dan O.]

Is there any proof from the cottage that TMB tests were made there?
Thanks.

There is the video of all the swabbing that was done on the bloody footprints. We're there SAL cards for those traces showing TMB tests? I think I would have remembered seeing something like a TMB test being performed for the camera.

The statement you quoted of Sarah Gino may be incorrect. One trace of where there was both a visible shoe print and a luminol detected blob showed a positive result for TMB and produced a genetic result of Amanda + Meredith.

This has been discussed at length here and I believe it is Massie that is misquoting Sarah's testimony. Sarah says this only of the bare footprints detected by luminol so as to exclude the shoe print in the hall.


To answer your question directly, there should be dates indicated on the SAL cards that shoe when the TMB tests were done. These dates are necessary to cooralate the TMB tests with the negative and positive TMB control tests. You see, the TMB solution is very unstable in that it can loose ten fold of sensitivity in just one day after it is mixed. Without the controls, a whole run of tests could return false negative or false positive results due to contamination or degradation of the reagent. Just ask any doctor that does forensic testing, they will tell you how important these controls are and how important it is to keep accurate notes.

 

[acbytesla]

There is the video of all the swabbing that was done on the bloody footprints. We're there SAL cards for those traces showing TMB tests? I think I would have remembered seeing something like a TMB test being performed for the camera.

The statement you quoted of Sarah Gino may be incorrect. One trace of where there was both a visible shoe print and a luminol detected blob showed a positive result for TMB and produced a genetic result of Amanda + Meredith.

This has been discussed at length here and I believe it is Massie that is misquoting Sarah's testimony. Sarah says this only of the bare footprints detected by luminol so as to exclude the shoe print in the hall.


To answer your question directly, there should be dates indicated on the SAL cards that shoe when the TMB tests were done. These dates are necessary to cooralate the TMB tests with the negative and positive TMB control tests. You see, the TMB solution is very unstable in that it can loose ten fold of sensitivity in just one day after it is mixed. Without the controls, a whole run of tests could return false negative or false positive results due to contamination or degradation of the reagent. Just ask any doctor that does forensic testing, they will tell you how important these controls are and how important it is to keep accurate notes.

Can you explain what a SAL card is Dan? I've looked it up on Google and found nothing. I'm assuming it is a TLA (three letter acronym).

 

[Dan O.]

SAL is a TLA for the Italian name on the reports which I can't remember off hand. The PDF of the entire stack of SAL reports was linked here not long ago. The SALs show the history and results for each test on each sample. Or at least that is the idea. They seem to be incomplete.

ETA: a google search for [Amanda Knox SAL report] returns in the first result "Work Status Report cards (SAL)". My Google-fu doesn't let me down.

 

[codyjuneau]

Look I'm ONLY saying that it is a weak argument to say killers would never take a weapon, specifically a knife to another location and then bring it back. I'll bet people have taken an axe to kill someone certainly guns .
....

.
For a premeditated murder, sure, but she was convicted of NON premeditated murder.

Anyway, besides the amazing coincidence that Amanda just happened to be carrying in her purse a large kitchen knife from Raffaele's apartment with which to perform a NON premeditated murder, there were two other rather remarkable coincidences that night. Most of you know this already, but for the benefit of newer people:

1) Sometime around 10 pm the night Meredith was murdered, a lady named Lana received a bomb threat phone call to her house. She telephoned the police and they investigated that night. They reported finding nothing. The next morning the lady found both of Meredith's cell phones in her yard. The police say it was a boy's prank. It would appear that the only evidence it was a boy's prank is the word of the police. I don't believe the telephone record of the bomb threat phone call has ever been produced.

2) Sometime around 10:30 pm the night Meredith was murdered, A car broke down directly opposite the entrance to the cottage where Meredith was murdered.

.

 

[acbytesla]

SAL is a TLA for the Italian name on the reports which I can't remember off hand. The PDF of the entire stack of SAL reports was linked here not long ago. The SALs show the history and results for each test on each sample. Or at least that is the idea. They seem to be incomplete.

ETA: a google search for [Amanda Knox SAL report] returns in the first result "Work Status Report cards (SAL)". My Google-fu doesn't let me down.

Thanks Dan, I figured it was something like that from the context.
I only looked up SAL reports....that got me nothing.. I appreciate it. I hate it when I read something over and over and I only have an inkling as to what it means.

 

[Dan O.]

Thanks Dan, I figured it was something like that from the context.
I only looked up SAL reports....that got me nothing.. I appreciate it. I hate it when I read something over and over and I only have an inkling as to what it means.

That's better than being a "Doctor" in Italy that is charged with doing this stuff over and over and only having an inkling as to what it means.

 

[acbytesla]

That's better than being a "Doctor" in Italy that is charged with doing this stuff over and over and only having an inkling as to what it means.

I'll be honest with you Dan. I think all this about her being a Doctor is nonsense. Stefanoni isn't stupid. And she's educated. I don't think it makes a bit of difference if she has only a BS vs a PHD.

What she is, is a shill. Steff damn well knows what she is doing. She is "playing" the game to get ahead in Italy. She did what she was "told" to do. FIND THE EVIDENCE that will lock up Amanda and Raffaele, because we damn well know she did it. I'm confident that those were instructions. I'd also bet that that they didn't tell her to fraudulent create the evidence. But I KNOW she did that on the knife for sure and probably the bra clasp as well.

Both were handled very very differently than all the other evidence. So you have to ask why? Everything Stefanoni has done in regards to the DNA evidence stinks to HIGH HEAVEN. It is VERY CLEAR that Stefanoni is hiding her wrongdoing. Otherwise, it would be, "sure, here are the EDFs", sure, here are the "actual negative control documents".

I think particularly with the knife, Stefanoni never meant that to be real evidence. Just enough so they could keep Raffaele in jail. So it was equivocal. But then Stefanoni was over her head...in for a penny, in for a pound. She really tried to put Raffaele's DNA on the bra clasp.

I am thoroughly convinced of this.

 

[Ampulla of Vater]

Can you explain what a SAL card is Dan? I've looked it up on Google and found nothing. I'm assuming it is a TLA (three letter acronym).

See post #3250.

 

[acbytesla]

See post #3250.

Thank you, figured it was something like that.

 

[moodstream]

I am thinking of this quote from Massei The negative result was also partly a consequence of Dr. Stefanoni's choice to use most of the DNA to determine the individual profiles and only the remainder to attempt to determine the nature of the trace.

How could she choose to use most of the DNA to determine the profile and the remainder...... if the TMB test came first?

 

[Dan O.]

I'll be honest with you Dan. I think all this about her being a Doctor is nonsense. Stefanoni isn't stupid. And she's educated. I don't think it makes a bit of difference if she has only a BS vs a PHD.

...

I am thoroughly convinced of this.

If she was really smart she would have been able to produce whatever result was needed without looking like a fool. You could put a bow on that gift wrapped mop and it wouldn't make Stef look any smarter.

 

[davefoc]

This bomb threat coincidence is amazing. Has Machiavelli ever commented on it and if so what did he say about it? Has Machiavelli ever made an attempt to learn more about it? Can Machiavelli confirm that the tape of the call reporting the bomb threat has never been released?

In the midst of making this post I went off looking for information about the bomb threat. and I remembered reading through a discussion of it here. The consensus here as I recall was that it really was just an amazing coincidence. I took a rough shot at trying to figure out how unlikely the coincidence was but I found somebody that had done a more credible job here:
http://www.injusticeanywhereforum.o...&p=23071&sid=db79714ec4bb31ac8db915986d97b2d9

What the author of the post came up with was this:

That means there is 1 chance in 16 million of a specific location in BC receiving a threat within a specific 12 hour period. Since most bomb threats target public places, not residences it would probably be 1 chance in more than 30 million for a residence.

Pretty darnn unlikely assuming Perugia has a similar rate of hoax bomb threats to that of British Columbia. Unfortunately, I continued reading through the thread and now my mind is awash with conspiracy theories about the bomb threat and the discarding and finding of the phones. One common theme to a lot of the conspiracy theories was that Guede was a police informant. I notice a poster by the name of Charlie Wilkes said he thought that a kid in Rome that had been making prank calls was the likely answer and that the bomb threat was probably a coincidence. That wasn't the only coincidence discussed in the thread, the parked car was also mentioned. Also a strange coincidence. I suppose that the people that are very familiar with this case have been aware of these unexplained coincidences for awhile. Do they think there is much chance that these unexplained coincidences have some kind of significant connection to this case beyond the coincidence of their occurence?

 

[acbytesla]

If she was really smart she would have been able to produce whatever result was needed without looking like a fool. You could put a bow on that gift wrapped mop and it wouldn't make Stef look any smarter.

This may be true...but I don't think a PHD would change that.

 

[toto]

Because, the weren't worried about being considered a suspect for a murder that they didn't commit and weren't soaking the cooking knife after every use.

Believe me, when you murder someone you clean the murder weapon.

I believe the child killer Huntley and his wife (U.K crime) left absolutely no trace of anything once they had cleaned their house.

 

[charlatan]

Mach's assertion that controls aren't part of the corpus of Stefanoni's work, and thus must be specifically requested, boggles the mind. One wonders what he makes of the fact that both the RIS report and the C&V report include control data without anyone having specifically asked for it.

 

[LondonJohn]

My personal belief is that the whole thing was made up.

I disagree as regards the accusations of police abuse, simply because no matter how bitter and/or fired up Lumumba may have been, there's no way he couldn't have understood the potential consequences to him of falsely accusing the police of such extreme acts.

On the other hand, I strongly suspect he felt he had a free hand to lay into Knox with all guns blazing: he would have nothing to fear from her as a private citizen who was sitting in a prison cell. In addition, since he obviously believed her to be guilty of participating in Meredith's murder, he would have felt few qualms about "embellishing" his recollections about such a vicious murderer....

 

[Wildhorses]

If my memory serves correctly, isn't what happened something along the following lines:

In Hellmann's court, Vechiotti said she had never received the negative controls. Comodi butted in to say that this was all ridiculous because the negative controls were in fact deposited with the courts during one of the very early preliminary hearings.

Hellmann said something like "OK, fine, we'll get someone to pull the relevant document out from the file dating from that time period". Someone looked, but couldn't in fact find any such negative controls in the court file from that time period or any other time.

Comodi said something like "Well, we DID lodge them with the court, but here's a copy anyhow if you can't manage to find them", and handed over a smudgy photocopy that - under closer examination - did not appear to be a genuine negative control run from the right overall experimental run.

Is this anything near an accurate recollection?

Thank you. I have posted questions about ACT II of the negative control drama twice, hoping Mach would admit the TRUE story was more complicated than his claim that Vechiotti failed to examine the court documentation.

My memory is somewhat different from yours. I agree:
-- Vechiotti said she was never given negative controls.
-- Comodi claimed they had been sitting in the case file since 2008.
-- Hellman ordered a search of court documents.
-- The search came up empty. The negative controls were NOT in the case file.

I believe this was followed by a brief period in which Stefanoni said she did NOT deposit the negative controls in the court file. She said it was not customary to file negative controls, so she didn't do it.

I agree at that point:
-- Stefanoni produced blurry photocopies, which she claimed were copies of the negative controls for the crucial knife DNA.
-- Upon examination, the negative controls she offered the court had the wrong date and identification number.

But it didn't end there. After her attempt to palm off false negative controls, Stefanoni told the court she couldn't FIND the negative controls. They'd gone missing. They remained missing through the summer recess, when lo and behold Stefanoni found them in her garage.

Near as I can tell, Mach's transcript is merely the prelude to a drama that went on for months. In the final act, we learned that if Vechiotti had wanted the negative controls, she would have had to have searched Stefanoni's garage.