Continuation Part Six: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

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Those who make unsupported defamatory allegations about people, are criminals (as for the Italian penal code, art 595, § 2, 3, aggravated defamation).

Machiavelli, I do wish you had a clearer sense of how horrifying this sort of thing sounds to educated observers of your country's legal processes from other liberal democracies. I'm from Australia, and while there are a few criminal defamation statutes on the books here, they are essentially dead letters. I don't think any convictions have been recorded since the 1980s. Mignini's penchant for instigating criminal libel actions against those who criticise him is fascistic in the truest sense of the word, and indicative of a profoundly diseased system - another example of which is the manner in which you personally squander your talents by zealously pursuing a cause whose flaws are obvious to any clear-headed rational thinker.
 
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let's just get this straight;

there's nothing "mysterious" about the foot-print Guede left on the mat in the bathroom.

After he'd slaughtered Meredith, he sat on her bed, putting his knife down to his left (where it left the bloody imprint), took off his right shoe and then went into the (adjacent) bathroom to clean up.

He rinsed the shoe that he'd carried there, and his blood-soaked pant-leg under the shower, but didn't take enough time to get the water from the pant-leg to run clear, hence the foot-print.

In doing all this, he left no other tracks.

This, apparently, is such uniquely brilliant deduction that I seem to be the only one on the planet to have figgered it out.

(Shakes head).
I agree with the term slaughtered because it is a good counterbalance to the "poor Rudy" meme.
 
Tesla I believe you suffer from confirmation bias. You so stronger are sure that Amanda had nothing to do with the crime that you can't look at anything without that overwhelming you.

It is totally idiotic to use Massei as touchstone. I really don't care what he thought about anything. I use his report for "facts" presented during the trial but not for his opinion.

Of course, Amanda didn't carry it for protection. You are unable to focus on whether that is a strong argument that they would never have taken a knife over and returned it.

Now what you must do is imagine that they killed Meredith, tried to set-up Patrick, continue to lie about their involvement, harbored hatred for Meredith, stole her money most likely for drugs and staged the beak-in. Now, if all that were true would you say that the knife is just too weird? Would you argue that it couldn't have been part of the crime because Amanda would never carry it?
I do not in any way agree that if they were part of this crazy crime, which it would be if they took part, that the knife would be the craziest part.

Now if you are saying that what you put forward as an argument is stupid, we are in agreement.
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So outrageous accusations make other outrageous accusations plausible. And repeat recursively.

I think I finally understand what the Italian Supreme Court meant by osmotic reasoning.
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Thanks Bill. I do think Grinder is unfair attributing my dismissal of the knife as "confirmation bias".

If anything, I think it is a bias for logic. Just because something is possible as "anything is possible" doesn't really mean that it should be seriously entertained.

I see no logic with this knife. None at all. And I've seriously looked at it from every angle. I shake my head that it was even pulled from Raffaele's flat. That is confirmation bias. That is the police going after a specific suspect as opposed to trying to solve a crime.


I agree with you, but I also agree with the overarching tenor of Grinder's point: IF Knox/Sollecito were indeed guilty of having used that knife in the murder, then it's reasonable to suggest that they might have opted to clean it, replace it, and bluff it out - rather than dispose of it and risk being caught in a lie.

Of course, it's preposterous to suggest that they would have elected to use this knife in the commission of the murder in any case - even IF they were indeed involved in the murder in some way (which, in my view, they were not). And the knife is - in my opinion - now totally divorced from any reliable connection whatsoever to the murder, so in fact all of this is entirely moot now anyhow.

But I think there's another interesting side point to raise here (remembering all the while that the whole issue is moot anyhow): if Knox and Sollecito HAD used the knife in the murder, and if they HAD decided to clean it and replace it, it would have been extraordinarily easy for them to have cleaned the knife sufficiently to remove every single forensic trace from it.

People tend to have a misguided opinion that, once deposited, biological forensic traces are extremely difficult - if not practically impossible - to remove. And that's simply nonsense. Especially in the case of this particular knife.

With a generally smooth, non-porous, metallic surface such as the knife blade (and the smooth, non-porous surface of the plastic handle), even a soaking and good rinsing in hot water should be enough to sluice all biological material from the knife.

If a surfectant/disinfectant such as washing-up liquid was used (and if you're trying to clean a knife after a murder, then I just suspect you might at least use washing-up liquid on it...), it's incredibly likely that anything other than a casual cleaning will remove all biological material. And again, if you were trying to clean a knife after using it for a murder, I'd think you would give it a vigorous scrubbing for quite some time, dontcha think...?

Add in even a weak solution of household bleach, and you're virtually guaranteed to have removed all biological material from the knife - even if, by some massively remote chance, there were still some DNA-containing cells remaining on the knife, even a weak bleach solution would break open these cells and denature the DNA beyond all recognition.

In short, the very proposition that Knox and Sollecito might have taken care to clean this knife - especially if it's claimed they used bleach on it as part of the cleaning process - means that it's verging on ridiculous to claim to have found biological material related to the murder upon the knife at sme point after this cleaning process. Instead, the only plausible proposition would be that Knox and Sollecito - after having used the knife in the murder and deciding to replace it in Sollecito's apartment - gave the knife only a very cursory cleaning or wiping before replacing it in the drawer (and remember that they would have been in no rush whatsoever to clean the knife). And that proposition is quite clearly ridiculous on its very face.


As another example of how water and soap gets rid of biological material, witness the shower in the small bathroom of the cottage. The prosecution claim that either Knox or Sollecito (or both) used the shower in the process of cleaning themselves after the crime. The defence would claim that Guede likely used the shower to wash blood from himself. But how much blood or other biological material was found anywhere inside the shower stall? That's right: none whatsoever. A short shower in warm water with the use of soap and shampoo would have ensured that all biological material was sluiced right down the plughole and away into the sewage system.
 
Machiavelli, I do wish you had a clearer sense of how horrifying this sort of thing sounds to educated observers of your country's legal processes from other liberal democracies. I'm from Australia, and while there are a few criminal defamation statutes on the books here, they are essentially dead letters. I don't think any convictions have been recorded since the 1980s. Mignini's penchant for instigating criminal libel actions against those who criticise him is fascistic in the truest sense of the word, and indicative of a profoundly diseased system - another example of which is the manner in which you personally squander your talents by zealously pursuing a cause whose flaws are obvious to any clear-headed rational thinker.


Suffice it to say that I'm not exactly quaking in my boots.......

All Machiavelli has done with this threat is to give everyone else instruction as to his misplaced anger and passion on this trivial issue, and also to draw attention once more to the hideous vestiges of fascism that somehow still exist within the Italian penal code. That laws like this still sit on the statute book of a westernised democracy is a very real disgrace.
 
I agree with you, but I also agree with the overarching tenor of Grinder's point: IF Knox/Sollecito were indeed guilty of having used that knife in the murder, then it's reasonable to suggest that they might have opted to clean it, replace it, and bluff it out - rather than dispose of it and risk being caught in a lie.

Of course, it's preposterous to suggest that they would have elected to use this knife in the commission of the murder in any case - even IF they were indeed involved in the murder in some way (which, in my view, they were not). And the knife is - in my opinion - now totally divorced from any reliable connection whatsoever to the murder, so in fact all of this is entirely moot now anyhow.

But I think there's another interesting side point to raise here (remembering all the while that the whole issue is moot anyhow): if Knox and Sollecito HAD used the knife in the murder, and if they HAD decided to clean it and replace it, it would have been extraordinarily easy for them to have cleaned the knife sufficiently to remove every single forensic trace from it.

People tend to have a misguided opinion that, once deposited, biological forensic traces are extremely difficult - if not practically impossible - to remove. And that's simply nonsense. Especially in the case of this particular knife.

With a generally smooth, non-porous, metallic surface such as the knife blade (and the smooth, non-porous surface of the plastic handle), even a soaking and good rinsing in hot water should be enough to sluice all biological material from the knife.

If a surfectant/disinfectant such as washing-up liquid was used (and if you're trying to clean a knife after a murder, then I just suspect you might at least use washing-up liquid on it...), it's incredibly likely that anything other than a casual cleaning will remove all biological material. And again, if you were trying to clean a knife after using it for a murder, I'd think you would give it a vigorous scrubbing for quite some time, dontcha think...?

Add in even a weak solution of household bleach, and you're virtually guaranteed to have removed all biological material from the knife - even if, by some massively remote chance, there were still some DNA-containing cells remaining on the knife, even a weak bleach solution would break open these cells and denature the DNA beyond all recognition.

In short, the very proposition that Knox and Sollecito might have taken care to clean this knife - especially if it's claimed they used bleach on it as part of the cleaning process - means that it's verging on ridiculous to claim to have found biological material related to the murder upon the knife at sme point after this cleaning process. Instead, the only plausible proposition would be that Knox and Sollecito - after having used the knife in the murder and deciding to replace it in Sollecito's apartment - gave the knife only a very cursory cleaning or wiping before replacing it in the drawer (and remember that they would have been in no rush whatsoever to clean the knife). And that proposition is quite clearly ridiculous on its very face.


As another example of how water and soap gets rid of biological material, witness the shower in the small bathroom of the cottage. The prosecution claim that either Knox or Sollecito (or both) used the shower in the process of cleaning themselves after the crime. The defence would claim that Guede likely used the shower to wash blood from himself. But how much blood or other biological material was found anywhere inside the shower stall? That's right: none whatsoever. A short shower in warm water with the use of soap and shampoo would have ensured that all biological material was sluiced right down the plughole and away into the sewage system.

Well, exactly. There was bleach at Raffaele's apartment. Not that it was opened. And using bleach is not suspicious. Millions of people use it all the time to wash clothes and disinfect. I frequently soak rags in bleach. Here is a two people that were acused of doing this incredible job of wiping every trace of themselves from the murder room and supposedly brought the very knife that killed Meredith and they aren't going to bring it back to the apartment and thoroughly clean it?? And it's not like they wouldn't have had the time. This knife wasn't seized for days after the murder.

But then again, logic doesn't have to go so far as they wouldn't have brought the knife back to the apartment, or they wouldn't have thoroughly cleaned the knife, there is no way in hell that knife would have ever left Raffaele's flat in the first place.

I do disagree with you on one point LJ. The prosecution is STILL going to argue that this was the murder weapon. They are going to argue, that it matters little that 36I was not a match to Meredith Kercher. They are going to argue that 36B was and always was a match for Meredith Kercher. They are even going to argue that RIS proved that a full profile of LCN DNA can be provide legitimate profiles and this proves that Stefanoni found the profile of MK on that knife.

I'm not sure the jury is going to accept this argument, but you can be assured it is not the last we will hear about this silly knife.
 
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Holy cow. It appears that one of the more prominent pro-guilt commentators (the messianic one who flew to Italy for the SC ruling) actually telephoned a US local TV news reporter (based in St Louis) at her place of work to challenge her on her views on the Kercher case (it appears that she tweeted something related to Knox at some point, triggering a pile-on by pro-guilt commentators).

We really are living in a strange and troubled world now, if this sort of thing is going on. And I don't think it's too much to suggest that if this type of contact (telephoning people at their place of work) has provably taken place in this instance, it has almost certainly taken place in other instances too.

In my opinion, this sort of activity oversteps the line by some considerable margin. It deserves to be pointed out as one of the more unpleasant and unbalanced activities linked to the citizen-commentator debate about this case. I am at least confident that the relevant authorities are keeping a low-level watching brief on certain individuals.
 
Prove it.
Those who make unsupported defamatory allegations about people, are criminals (as for the Italian penal code, art 595, § 2, 3, aggravated defamation).

Like say falsely accusing two clearly innocent persons of a crime that you and your rat friends have no proof of? That is a crime in most civilized countries...
So is hitting someone during an interrogation like Rita Ficurra did to AK when questioning her...according to AK Rita later apologized for hitting her. What a generous but lying broad.

Id say you and Mignini and Stefanoni and Vogt have all lied about the accused in this case. Lied and withheld evidence...not you perhaps but certainly Mignini and Stefanoni.

We read above the Sara Gino discovery of the TMB tests...Massei claims that she made her discovery quite differently from the way you describe it. Stefanoni didn't testify correctly about it nor did she submit the proper data about the TMB results. This makes her a liar and cheat. No matter how much you wish to redeem her you can never do it. And trying to redeem her results is even worse. You are beating a dead horse...she will not run faster or look better for doing that. Stefanoni has no creditability. The proof is in the pudding....ever heard of that? In short her work stinks. And there are multiple examples of her stinky work...so much poor work that rational people understand that they can never trust anything she does or ever has done.

No one cares if she is a PHD or a Super PHD or whatever. We already know she is a sloppy liar who will likely say and do anything at the request of her boss and or Mignini. She has prostituted herself and the proof is readily available for all to see. She doesn't need to feel too terrible...Noveli is the same type of prostitute...dirty little liars whose faults are so grossly overblown so as to mark them as the authors...with all the subtly of face tattoos.

You can fool relative new followers like Dave but most know you quite well...I am never surprised by anything you say. In fact nothing has changed from you in 4 years. Sure you occasionally lose it and start ranting about Al Qaeda and other odd arguments but in the end you are simply someone who wishes to defame and slander AK and RS. Personally I hope they both track you down and sue the pants off you.

I doubt however that you have anything to worry about. Because like Pervert Quinell, Piggy Ganong, and Michael Fuikenelli none are worth the trouble...and between all of you the pockets are relatively shallow I suspect.

So tell me...how well do you know Paul Russell? As good as you know Vogt?
 
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Holy cow. It appears that one of the more prominent pro-guilt commentators (the messianic one who flew to Italy for the SC ruling) actually telephoned a US local TV news reporter (based in St Louis) at her place of work to challenge her on her views on the Kercher case (it appears that she tweeted something related to Knox at some point, triggering a pile-on by pro-guilt commentators).

We really are living in a strange and troubled world now, if this sort of thing is going on. And I don't think it's too much to suggest that if this type of contact (telephoning people at their place of work) has provably taken place in this instance, it has almost certainly taken place in other instances too.

In my opinion, this sort of activity oversteps the line by some considerable margin. It deserves to be pointed out as one of the more unpleasant and unbalanced activities linked to the citizen-commentator debate about this case. I am at least confident that the relevant authorities are keeping a low-level watching brief on certain individuals.


Well not if you consider yourself to be God. Then you can say and do whatever you want...I would think you, like the rest of us mere mortals, might understand these special "crazy" rules that apply only to deity.
 
Holy cow. It appears that one of the more prominent pro-guilt commentators (the messianic one who flew to Italy for the SC ruling) actually telephoned a US local TV news reporter (based in St Louis) at her place of work to challenge her on her views on the Kercher case (it appears that she tweeted something related to Knox at some point, triggering a pile-on by pro-guilt commentators).<snip>

How about providing some links?
 
How about providing some links?


https://twitter.com/Gman_Moore

Click "view conversation" on Moore's tweets from 7 November tagged @Moon_Melanie. The ones beginning "OMG. Be careful." and "Couldn't have summed it up better myself" will show you the combined picture.

The reporter in question is Melanie Moon - she's an anchor for the Fox local affiliate in St Louis. It doesn't even appear that she has said anything on air about Knox/Sollecito - she merely appears to have tweeted something rather throwaway related to Knox at some point.


ETA: Here are the relevant tweets from Melanie Moon to Steve Moore:

Melanie Moon ‏@Moon_Melanie 7 Nov

@Gman_Moore some tweeter from Toronto actually called me at work because he didn't like my tweets & was trying to debate w/me on phone!


Melanie Moon ‏@Moon_Melanie 7 Nov

@NJusticAnywhere @Gman_Moore That's the one who called me! Loved him trying to explain how you can selectively wipe away DNA. LOL!
 
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https://twitter.com/Gman_Moore

Click "view conversation" on Moore's tweets from 7 November tagged @Moon_Melanie. The ones beginning "OMG. Be careful." and "Couldn't have summed it up better myself" will show you the combined picture.

The reporter in question is Melanie Moon - she's an anchor for the Fox local affiliate in St Louis. It doesn't even appear that she has said anything on air about Knox/Sollecito - she merely appears to have tweeted something rather throwaway related to Knox at some point.

ETA: Here are the relevant tweets from Melanie Moon to Steve Moore:

Thanks, LJ. Jeeze, Twitter is like a high school yearbook. BTW, people call reporters at work all the time.
 
Thanks, LJ. Jeeze, Twitter is like a high school yearbook. BTW, people call reporters at work all the time.


Yes - when they have reported on a particular topic, it's reasonable to suggest that people with a point of view on that topic might call them. That's part of their professional lives, and one could argue that they actually have a responsibility to have an open door (within limits) to this sort of communication.

However, in this instance, it appears clear that whatever Melanie Moon said about Knox or the Kercher case in general, it most definitely was not in her professional capacity as a news anchor/reporter, and it most definitely was not broadcast on TV. In my opinion, if people put something out on twitter in a personal capacity, they can reasonably expect people to respond via the same medium. But I don't think they can reasonably expect people to call them at their place of work to try to debate the argument.

If a fireman, a bank clerk or a road digger tweeted something about the Kercher case, they could likewise reasonably expect people to respond to it on twitter. What they could not reasonably expect would be for people to find their work contact details and telephone them at work about it. There's no difference in Melanie Moon's case - the fact that she happens to be a broadcast journalist is irrelevant in that her Kercher-case-related comments were made in a personal capacity.
 
You know Stefanonis mother?

Statement Analysis, my friend. It's even better than googluminol for opening new vistas of insight. I have the power to become an expert on anything, instantly.

I can also use words to change facts so they are 180 degrees from what they really mean. It takes a hell of a lot of boring-ass words, though, so usually I don't bother.

All I have to do now is join a cult on the Internet, so I can apply my talents.
 
Yes - when they have reported on a particular topic, it's reasonable to suggest that people with a point of view on that topic might call them. That's part of their professional lives, and one could argue that they actually have a responsibility to have an open door (within limits) to this sort of communication.

However, in this instance, it appears clear that whatever Melanie Moon said about Knox or the Kercher case in general, it most definitely was not in her professional capacity as a news anchor/reporter, and it most definitely was not broadcast on TV. In my opinion, if people put something out on twitter in a personal capacity, they can reasonably expect people to respond via the same medium. But I don't think they can reasonably expect people to call them at their place of work to try to debate the argument.

If a fireman, a bank clerk or a road digger tweeted something about the Kercher case, they could likewise reasonably expect people to respond to it on twitter. What they could not reasonably expect would be for people to find their work contact details and telephone them at work about it. There's no difference in Melanie Moon's case - the fact that she happens to be a broadcast journalist is irrelevant in that her Kercher-case-related comments were made in a personal capacity.

Okay, I misunderstood; I thought she had reported on the case.
 
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