Continuation Part Six: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[Dan O.]

Someone somewhere floated a story that the landlord had inventoried the knives and unless they returned it the landlord would notice it was missing.

I'm actually afraid to check if this is Massei's reasoning. No matter. ... it's probably Mach's reasoning.

There was an inventory and it listed all of the knives that came with the appartment. There was the big kitchen knife, 6 steak knives and I believe a bread knife. This has been seen in the video of Raffaele's place.

ETA: Why would someone take a knife to use in a murder that was listed on the inventory that they signed?

LIST OF FURNITURE AND THESE ITEMS IN THE APARTMENT SITE
PERUGIA, CORSO GARIBALDI N.110 GROUND FLOOR

KITCHEN:
- Gas boiler wall
- Dark wood kitchen with appliances ... 2.55 linear meters
- Wooden table
- No. 2 wooden chairs
- Ranked # 1 cabinet with two doors and bottle of dark wood
- Portaposale from plastic sink
- Portaposaie from plastic drawer
- Plastic Juicer
- Service for 4 plates ceramic plates + loose
- N. 6 glasses blue glass
- Service from 6 tea cups ceramic
- Service from 6 coffee cups ceramic
- Set 3 plates plastic flow
...
- 6 stainless forks
- 6 tablespoons steel
- 6 teaspoons steel
- 6 blue plastic handle knives
- 1 plastic colander
- 1 plastic trivet
- 1 plastic ashtray
- 2 cm steel pots with lids. 18 cm and 20
- 1 wooden cutting board
- 2 large knives
- Drying garbage
- 1 bucket cleaning
- 1 broom​

 

[LondonJohn]

From my perspective it is irrelevant if Stefanoni is a Doctor or not. The question in my mind is she incompetent or not. And that she has proven in spades.

I absolutely agree - and have said so here before.

To my mind, the question of her qualification (or lack of) has more to do with the prosecution's attempts to bolster her credibility than any hard matter of technical skills etc. And by that I mean that Mignini and others have attempted to "big up" (in the vernacular!) Stefanoni by telling the courts and the media how high-powered and skilled she is.

I believe that Mignini and others have deliberately exploited the confusion over the word "Doctor" within Italy versus in nearly every country outside Italy, in order to try to implant in the minds of the international media the idea that Stefanoni is a "true Doctor" by international definitions.

That's why I think it's interesting and informative to look at this. But ultimately, I absolutely agree that what really matters is how Stefanoni actually acted in relation to the Kercher case.

 

[Skind]

Actually, I don't frankly care whether or not Machiavelli wants to prove this point (although he keeps telling me how easy it would be for me to prove it, so I can't really see why he wouldn't/couldn't do the same himself).

Mach then went on to state that Italians don't always use the full title of their Doctorate. This therefore means that absence of the full title on a document does not mean real-world absence of the title.

Mach has set it up so that he can casually dismiss any document not containing the title as merely being an artifact of cultural habit.

Mach therefore wants you to prove something even though they will not accept anything you offer in evidence. The refuse to do anything resembling effort to prove it.

Compare this to how easy it would be for Mach to find a source that details the awarding body and the exact PhD-equivilant, (he can easily phone or email her organisation in his primary language) and it's pretty obvious that he knows that she doesn't have a Doctorate.

He even quoted her exact ECTS/CAT course code to me quite recently, so it would be trivial for him to demonstrate how that is equivilant to a PhD.

 

[Wildhorses]

Based on what? On you fantasy?
Or on Bongiorno's word?

The Oct. 8. 2008 hearing documents that negative controls were deposited. Stefanoni deposited documentation on the Oct. 8. 2008 hearing declaring they were the knife negative controls.
How is it that Vecchiotti says she does not even know that this happened?

Is it possible that nobody here realizes the absurdity of things Vecchiotti is saying in her cross questioning?

Machiavelli, please help me understand.

If the negative controls were deposited in the file of the proceedings on October 8, 2008, WHY did Stefanoni present negative controls with the wrong date and serial number in 2011? WHY did she tell the court she had lost the negative controls and later report finding them in her garage?

You wonder why Vecchiotti didn't know the negative controls had been filed with court. I wonder why Stefanoni didn't simply tell her. It would have been easy enough to state that in a email. Why the cat and mouse game? Is it possible you don't realize how suspicious it looks?

 

[LondonJohn]

That malevolent weirdo "The Machine" has recently been directing people enthusiastically towards a blog article about the Vogt/BSU rejected FOI request re Hampikian, written by someone who's into trade secrets (this person seems to have some sort of crusade against trade secrets, so you can probably guess the slant that the blog piece is going to have...).

What "The Machine" fails to understand (the author of the blog piece does understand it, but then fails to contextualise it) is that Vogt's information request was refused on NUMEROUS grounds.

The most important grounds by some distance were those related to attorney-client privilege. Simply put, if Hampikian was contributing to the criminal defence of Knox - even if he never appeared in court in Italy, nor submitted a report directly to the court - his private communications in this regard are automatically protected by attorney-client privilege.

So, in every way, it's irrelevant to even have a discussion on whether BSU's additional "trade secrets" reason for refusing the request was appropriate or not. It's a bit like someone getting convicted on two counts of murder and attempted murder, being sentenced to life for the murder and 10years for the attempted murder (to run concurrently), then appealing against the attempted murder conviction/sentence alone.

In other words, let's just suppose - for the sake of argument - that BSU were totally incorrect to refuse Vogt's FOI request on "trade secrets" grounds. So what then? Well, actually, it makes a sum total of ZERO difference to the outcome, since the entire refusal is justified on attorney/client privilege grounds anyhow.

I suppose some people are either too stupid or too biased to see these sorts of things......

 

[acbytesla]

I absolutely agree - and have said so here before.

To my mind, the question of her qualification (or lack of) has more to do with the prosecution's attempts to bolster her credibility than any hard matter of technical skills etc. And by that I mean that Mignini and others have attempted to "big up" (in the vernacular!) Stefanoni by telling the courts and the media how high-powered and skilled she is.

I believe that Mignini and others have deliberately exploited the confusion over the word "Doctor" within Italy versus in nearly every country outside Italy, in order to try to implant in the minds of the international media the idea that Stefanoni is a "true Doctor" by international definitions.

That's why I think it's interesting and informative to look at this. But ultimately, I absolutely agree that what really matters is how Stefanoni actually acted in relation to the Kercher case.

Actually, maybe it's not fair to say that Stefanoni is incompetent. Maybe she's just corrupt? No...she's incompetent....because it is clear that she is also incompetent at being corrupt.

 

[LondonJohn]

Actually, maybe it's not fair to say that Stefanoni is incompetent. Maybe she's just corrupt? No...she's incompetent....because it is clear that she is also incompetent at being corrupt.

Not only intelligently wry and witty, but also essentially correct

 

[Dan O.]

Prove it.
Those who make unsupported defamatory allegations about people, are criminals (as for the Italian penal code, art 595, § 2, 3, aggravated defamation).

I debate whether to reply to that lier that claimed Stefanoni had a Ph.d or report the post for making legal threats against forum members.


My research has uncovered that as of October 2008: Patrizia Stefanoni, 40 years, BA in Biological Sciences and former researcher in genetics since 2000 and now in police biologist and technical director of the Section of Forensic Genetics-Scientific Rome. And from her own interview she claimed: I graduated in Biology at the Faculty of Science ' University of Naples Federico II in 1995. Currently functioning nario Technical State Police. She is listed as co-author on one publication: 2004-04-05 "A Novel Hyperekplexia-causing Mutation in the Pre-transmembrane Segment 1 of the Human Glycine Receptor α1 Subunit Reduces Membrane Expression and Impairs Gating by Agonists"

If anyone has any other hard references I will gladly extend her bio.

ETA: The 2011 publication referenced by christianahannah had been added. She also attended a conference where she was billed as "Dr" but I've misplaced that link. It's somewhere back in the early part of these threads.

 

[acbytesla]

Not only intelligently wry and witty, but also essentially correct

But seriously LJ. I have for a long time given Stefanoni the benefit of the doubt. That she just made mistakes.

But her actions really say far more than that. It really proves that she went way over the line. The exchange between the prosecutor and Vechiotti clearly shows that Stefanoni was hiding her own incompetence or her own corruption.

And given the strange way she performed the testing on 36B, I think it is very clear it was the latter. When she says that there are a couple of hundred picograms and the machine says something entirely different. When she tests 36B differently than every single test she made it clearly shows that something wasn't Kosher.When she "intreprets" peaks below 50 RFU and then says it is match....it all just makes you go hmmm...

 

[davefoc]

...

And given the strange way she performed the testing on 36B, I think it is very clear it was the latter. When she says that there are a couple of hundred picograms and the machine says something entirely different. When she tests 36B differently than every single test she made it clearly shows that something wasn't Kosher.When she "intreprets" peaks below 50 RFU and then says it is match....it all just makes you go hmmm...

Has anybody evaluated the material from Stefanoni made public about the test results for 36B to evaluate the possibility that conclusion that it was Kercher's DNA was based on routine test noise that was selectively interpreted as a match for Kercher's DNA? My uninformed opinion before I started following this thread was that this was the case. However there was at least one post that discounted this possibility and there has been a lot more discussion about the possibility of contamination. But discussions about interpretation of peaks below 50 RFU make it seem like over fitting is what is being suggested.

 

[Strozzi]

Prove it.
Those who make unsupported defamatory allegations about people, are criminals (as for the Italian penal code, art 595, § 2, 3, aggravated defamation).

Machiavelli, I agree with you. Dr. Stefanoni has fulfilled the university requirements and earned the title of Dr. in her country. I also understand she did another year of molecular biology studies at the graduate level at a leading university in Italy. She also worked 8 years as a researcher in her field at a research institute before joining the Ministry of Interior police forensic lab.

Dr. in Italy is a different degree than what we know to be a Dr. (Ph.D) in some other countries including mine (U.S.).

Let's put this one to rest. I hope we can focus on the scientific and other facts in the case and well thought out beliefs and conclusions.

 

[RoseMontague]

I debate whether to reply to that lier that claimed Stefanoni had a Ph.d or report the post for making legal threats against forum members.


My research has uncovered that as of October 2008: Patrizia Stefanoni, 40 years, BA in Biological Sciences and former researcher in genetics since 2000 and now in police biologist and technical director of the Section of Forensic Genetics-Scientific Rome. And from her own interview she claimed: I graduated in Biology at the Faculty of Science ' University of Naples Federico II in 1995. Currently functioning nario Technical State Police. She is listed as co-author on one publication: 2004-04-05 "A Novel Hyperekplexia-causing Mutation in the Pre-transmembrane Segment 1 of the Human Glycine Receptor α1 Subunit Reduces Membrane Expression and Impairs Gating by Agonists"

If anyone has any other hard references I will gladly extend her bio.

ETA: The 2011 publication referenced by christianahannah had been added. She also attended a conference where she was billed as "Dr" but I've misplaced that link. It's somewhere back in the early part of these threads.

When I was looking around earlier I found this one. The interesting thing about this is it was just a few days before the murder and it was about evidence gathering and processing at the crime scene. No Dr in this one.

http://www.bed-and-breakfast.it/festval_scienza_2007/festival_scienza_incontri_conferenze.pdf

 

[Wildhorses]

Machiavelli, I agree with you. Dr. Stefanoni has fulfilled the university requirements and earned the title of Dr. in her country. I also understand she did another year of molecular biology studies at the graduate level at a leading university in Italy. She also worked 8 years as a researcher in her field at a research institute before joining the Ministry of Interior police forensic lab.

Dr. in Italy is a different degree than what we know to be a Dr. (Ph.D) in some other countries including mine (U.S.).

Let's put this one to rest. I hope we can focus on the scientific and other facts in the case and well thought out beliefs and conclusions.

I second the motion.

 

[Wildhorses]

There was an inventory and it listed all of the knives that came with the appartment. There was the big kitchen knife, 6 steak knives and I believe a bread knife. This has been seen in the video of Raffaele's place.

ETA: Why would someone take a knife to use in a murder that was listed on the inventory that they signed?

LIST OF FURNITURE AND THESE ITEMS IN THE APARTMENT SITE
PERUGIA, CORSO GARIBALDI N.110 GROUND FLOOR

KITCHEN:
- Gas boiler wall
- Dark wood kitchen with appliances ... 2.55 linear meters
- Wooden table
- No. 2 wooden chairs
- Ranked # 1 cabinet with two doors and bottle of dark wood
- Portaposale from plastic sink
- Portaposaie from plastic drawer
- Plastic Juicer
- Service for 4 plates ceramic plates + loose
- N. 6 glasses blue glass
- Service from 6 tea cups ceramic
- Service from 6 coffee cups ceramic
- Set 3 plates plastic flow
...
- 6 stainless forks
- 6 tablespoons steel
- 6 teaspoons steel
- 6 blue plastic handle knives
- 1 plastic colander
- 1 plastic trivet
- 1 plastic ashtray
- 2 cm steel pots with lids. 18 cm and 20
- 1 wooden cutting board
- 2 large knives
- Drying garbage
- 1 bucket cleaning
- 1 broom​

Meh, fear of landlord inventory scores high on my list of idiotic speculations about Knox/Solecito behavior.

Seriously, we are to believe they brutally raped and murdered a friend (within an hour of watching Amelie), boldly staged a burglary, strategically cleaned up the murder scene, and fearlessly called the police the next morning -- while cowering at the thought of a landlord dispute over an easily replaceable knife?

I guess it makes sense to some people. Makes no sense to me.

 

[christianahannah]

I debate whether to reply to that lier that claimed Stefanoni had a Ph.d or report the post for making legal threats against forum members.


My research has uncovered that as of October 2008: Patrizia Stefanoni, 40 years, BA in Biological Sciences and former researcher in genetics since 2000 and now in police biologist and technical director of the Section of Forensic Genetics-Scientific Rome. And from her own interview she claimed: I graduated in Biology at the Faculty of Science ' University of Naples Federico II in 1995. Currently functioning nario Technical State Police. She is listed as co-author on one publication: 2004-04-05 "A Novel Hyperekplexia-causing Mutation in the Pre-transmembrane Segment 1 of the Human Glycine Receptor α1 Subunit Reduces Membrane Expression and Impairs Gating by Agonists"

If anyone has any other hard references I will gladly extend her bio.

ETA: The 2011 publication referenced by christianahannah had been added. She also attended a conference where she was billed as "Dr" but I've misplaced that link. It's somewhere back in the early part of these threads.

The first three in this link (of which you have the first) are also by Stefanoni (if the link times out you can type P. Stefanoni in the author box).

http://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...18e949ddaa11c0427832e2b732834acd&searchtype=a

 

[Strozzi]

Can we talk about what should ideally be done in investigating a silimar (gruesome) murder in the future?

I have no experience or insight into crime scene investigations, but would like to suggest that if a similar crime scene is discovered anywhere (in any country) and there is doubt that it unfolded as it initially appears, that the leader of the investigation appoint specific investigators to examine it from different angles. In this case, when responding police doubted that the crime involved a real break-in, the officer in charge might have divided his senior detectives into two groups (teams) and charged one to investigate and make the case for it to be a real break-in and the other to investigate it and make thevcase for it to be a staged break-in

The team tasked to investigate it as a real break-in might have looked at it from that angle and done a more thorough forensic examination of the possible entry route. They might have better documented the exterior wall. For example, collected trace samples from colored marks on the exterior wall to see if they contained soil traces which would suggest that a shoe scuffed the wall during climb. They could have forensically examined glass fragments to determine if the glass was broken by force from outside or inside. They might have developed a physical profile of a type of person who could climb in the second story window. They might have concluded that it was probably a person of a certain build, physical ability, and age and gender profile and realized that they were looking for a slender, athletic male between the ages of X and Y. They might have asked if there were recent burglaries involving a rock and second story entry. They might have listened to Filomena's initial statement that she pulled her exterior shutters partially closed but not all the way, and incorporated that into their investigation.

Please feel free to continue with this direction.

 

[RoseMontague]

Meh, fear of landlord inventory scores high on my list of idiotic speculations about Knox/Solecito behavior.

Seriously, we are to believe they brutally raped and murdered a friend (within an hour of watching Amelie), boldly staged a burglary, strategically cleaned up the murder scene, and fearlessly called the police the next morning -- while cowering at the thought of a landlord dispute over an easily replaceable knife?

I guess it makes sense to some people. Makes no sense to me.

Yep, yep. I think some of those that pretend it makes sense are not being honest. Just my opinion.

 

[Supernaut]

Prove it, or you are a criminal. Simple.

It's easy to prove it. You make a phone call, write an e-mail...

If you do not, you are 1) a criminal, and 2) a liar.

To coin an over-used phrase;

comedy gold!!

 

[xinonix]

Stefanoni may have a Phd, but can you prove that between now and his graduation Steve did not have a stroke? Perhaps he did, that loss of brain could explain his opinion.

 

[moodstream]

Has anybody evaluated the material from Stefanoni made public about the test results for 36B to evaluate the possibility that conclusion that it was Kercher's DNA was based on routine test noise that was selectively interpreted as a match for Kercher's DNA? My uninformed opinion before I started following this thread was that this was the case. However there was at least one post that discounted this possibility and there has been a lot more discussion about the possibility of contamination. But discussions about interpretation of peaks below 50 RFU make it seem like over fitting is what is being suggested.

Check out this article here