General Holocaust Denial Discussion Part II

[Matthew Ellard]

I don't think so. The Wizard of Oz came out in 1939 and was famous for its use of color film. However, for still photography, Kodak had Kodachrome 35mm film available in 1938. German color film was also introduced in 1936. However, color would be inconsistent if you assumed the image came from typical aerial reconnaissance. The images from recon in 1944 are in black and white don't show the presence of a camp.

That was my fault. I didn't explain myself very well. The "photo" would need to have been taken from above. I was thinking of an air reconnaissance photo and thought it should be black & white. I was wrong for just only mentioning colour as a problem.

 

[Matthew Ellard]

So everybody agrees that there has never been another mass grave that held as many bodies and was packed as densely as the mass graves at Treblinka.

That wasn't the claim being discussed. The claim being discussed is this.

I consulted standard reference sources on the death camps, Belzec, Sobibor, Treblinka: The Operation Reinhard Death Camps, for the dimensions of the mass graves..........When Arad says that Treblinka had five mass graves that were 50 meters by 25 meters by 10 meters, I believe him........I will now do the math. Seven hundred thousand people buried in five mass graves. Each mass grave is 50 meters by 25 meters by 10 meters. 5 X 50 X 25 X 10=62,500 cubic meters. 700,000/62,500=11.2 bodies per cubic meter.

I had already established that a living adult male can fit inside 0.06922 cubic metres. Therefore your maths, using your own parameters clearly indicates that 11.2 bodies x 0.06922 cubic metres equals 0.775 cubic metres. Therefore there was more than enough room.

Are you now satisfied through using your own mathematics that 700,000 bodies of men, women and children could have been buried at Treblinka II?

Franz Stangl / Commanding Officer of Treblinka II/ Quote
"I remember Wirth standing there, next to the pits full of black-blue corpses. It had nothing to do with humanity — it could not have. It was a mass — a mass of rotting flesh"

 

[Matthew Ellard]

There do seem to be inconsistent reports with the function and operation of Treblinka II. However, I am particularly struck by one bold statement on this website:

"credible reports of deportations of Jews from Treblinka refute the allegation that all Jews sent there were destined for extermination, and indicate instead that the camp functioned as a transit center.

May I ask for your citation and evidence for this claim. I believe you are simply quoting the holocaust denier Mark Weber from the IHR holocaust denial website.

Several thousand Jews (at least) were transferred by German authorities from Treblinka to other camps, a postwar German court determined.

Again, may I see your citation for this claim? In addition., what accommodation were these thousands of Jews kept in at Treblinka? Can you point out the barracks for several thousand people on your previous "photo" of Treblinka II?

because if the suggestion is that Treblinka was nothing more than a transit center it will be necessary to track movements from each location to figure out where the populations should have ended up.

May I suggest you first point out where you think these thousands of Jews were accommodated at Treblinka if you are going to claim Treblinka was a transit camp and all the related questions. For example, what food for several thousand people was sent for their consumption at Treblinka II? You should then read the Treblinka station master, Franciszek Zabecki's evidence on train movements and explain how a single line, away from the main line, without accommodation, works for a "transit" camp.

 

[Nessie]

........ One source for this line of reasoning would be here: Institute for Historical Review

In fact, many of the things that you've said were quite similar to what appears there. There do seem to be inconsistent reports with the function and operation of Treblinka II. However, I am particularly struck by one bold statement on this website:

"credible reports of deportations of Jews from Treblinka refute the allegation that all Jews sent there were destined for extermination, and indicate instead that the camp functioned as a transit center.

...........

I would like to know what the IHR's "credible reports" refers to. The "credible reports" are not cited. If such is witness testimony, how does the IRH determine such is credible and other witness testimony is not?

Furthermore, they refer to Treblinka. So what is to say that means Treblinka I and not T II?

 

[CaptainHowdy]

That wasn't the claim being discussed. The claim being discussed is this.

The discussion is about direct and circumstantial evidence for the mass graves at the death camps. What we were discussing is the unprecedented size and density of the mass graves at the death camps. Nobody has provided a citation to a source for a mass grave or set of mass graves that held hundreds of thousands of bodies. I have been unable to find any on my own so I was stating the conclusion: everybody agrees that there has never been another mass grave that held as many bodies and was packed as densely as the mass graves at Treblinka.

I originally was under the impression that the number of mass graves at the death camps was known. Criminal trials had established the number of graves more than forty years ago and we had known their locations well enough to be able to build memorials over them. After having done further studying, I now know that the latest research by Dr. Colls and previous work by Kola reveals that we really don't known how many graves there are or how big or how deep they are. All we know is that our previous assumptions are not correct.

Because of this knowledge gap, we can't figure out with any degree of accuracy the density of the mass graves. But we can all agree at least that the mass graves at the death camp Treblinka held hundreds of thousands of bodies at one time and that no other mass grave or collection of mass graves constituting a single unit has ever been discovered that has held the remains of so many people.

We can also agree--not that a living adult male can fit inside 0.06922 cubic metres--but that there has never been a mass grave discovered where bodies were packed to a density of one per .06922 cubic meters.

 

[Matthew Ellard]

If these are photographs that have been published in books and are not available for viewing on the web, please tell me where I can find them. I will attempt to track them down.

Łukaszkiewicz Zdzisław
Obóz straceń w Treblince

PIW, Warszawa 1946

 

[CaptainHowdy]

Łukaszkiewicz Zdzisław
Obóz straceń w Treblince

PIW, Warszawa 1946

There aren't any photographs of mass graves in that book.

 

[Matthew Ellard]

There aren't any photographs of mass graves in that book.

Łukaszkiewicz had photos taken of the human ash. What does Łukaszkiewicz say about forensic evidence and amounts of human ash in the book? The exact quotes please.

 

[Matthew Ellard]

The discussion is about direct and circumstantial evidence for the mass graves at the death camps. What we were discussing is the unprecedented size and density of the mass graves at the death camps.

No. It was directly about whether the Treblinka could hold the bodies. That's why you did the maths to prove it possible. Why else would you do the maths you did?

I originally was under the impression that the number of mass graves at the death camps was known.

I informed you that Caroline Colls found more graves but you "hand waved" that information. You said you were only going to believe Arad because Colls had not published.

We can also agree--not that a living adult male can fit inside 0.06922 cubic metres--

Why not? Are you denying that a living breathing man can fit himself into 0.06922 cubic metres

 

[CaptainHowdy]

No. It was directly about whether the Treblinka could hold the bodies. That's why you did the maths to prove it possible. Why else would you do the maths you did?

I informed you that Caroline Colls found more graves but you "hand waved" that information. You said you were only going to believe Arad because Colls had not published.

We cannot have a conversation if we don't agree on some basic parameters. Arad is a highly respected historian. I had assumed that what he has written about the Treblinka camp was based on accurate, well-established facts. I don't "believe" Arad because of some irrational faith in his awesomeness. I assumed that as the head of Yad Vashem he knew something about the Holocaust. I'm willing to dismiss his research and go forward on the basis that it's not possible to calculate the density of the mass graves at this point because we don't know how big they were or how many there were. If we're going to insist on density of the grave calculations, however, we must use Arad. That is because his is the only research that provides the information necessary for that calculation

Why not? Are you denying that a living breathing man can fit himself into 0.06922 cubic metres

No. You have shown that extremely flexible living breathing men can fit himself into a .06922 cubic meter sized box. But that man is an extreme example of flexibility and I doubt most Jews from the ghetto were able to replicate that specific accomplishment. Besides, the point is that there has never been a mass grave discovered that packed bodies to the density of one per .06922 cubic meters.

 

[zooterkin]

No. You have shown that extremely flexible living breathing men can fit himself into a .06922 cubic meter sized box. But that man is an extreme example of flexibility and I doubt most Jews from the ghetto were able to replicate that specific accomplishment. Besides, the point is that there has never been a mass grave discovered that packed bodies to the density of one per .06922 cubic meters.

The flexibility is irrelevant; it's just a convenient way of showing the volume of the body, which is relevant as one bound when considering the possible capacity of mass graves.

 

[CaptainHowdy]

Łukaszkiewicz had photos taken of the human ash. What does Łukaszkiewicz say about forensic evidence and amounts of human ash in the book? The exact quotes please.

I asked to see photographs of human ash. If Lukaszkiewicz had photographs taken of the ash, let's see them. If you cannot produce photographs of human ash we can assume they don't exist. As I said earlier, I have seen the quality of the photographs you have produced in the past. Please do better then those.

 

[Matthew Ellard]

No. You have shown that extremely flexible living breathing men can fit himself into a .06922 cubic meter sized box.

Are you suggesting that dead people, who do not need to breath, are less flexible? Can you explain how you reached this conclusion? I suggest that forensic criminal evidence concerning dead bodies hidden in small spaces might not support your current assertion. (ie complete bodies in suitcases, drainpipes, etc.)

But that man is an extreme example of flexibility and I doubt most Jews from the ghetto were able to replicate that specific accomplishment.

Well I agree. The dead Jewish people didn't need to breathe, nor did they have to pull themselves out of their .06922 cubic meter sized boxes. In addition, considering the majority of dead Jews would be women and children, they would be too small to even fill the males sized box for the show.

What volume do you claim as your minimum size now you have completed your research? Please supply a citation.

Besides, the point is that there has never been a mass grave discovered that packed bodies to the density of one per .06922 cubic meters.

The battle of Kursk had 2518 tanks fighting in the tiny area around Prokhorovka. This never happened before or since. Are you saying it never happened as it never happened before? Can you flesh out how this logical rule works for you in detail using non holocaust examples? Your logical rule makes no sense to me at all.

 

[Nessie]

I asked to see photographs of human ash. If Lukaszkiewicz had photographs taken of the ash, let's see them. If you cannot produce photographs of human ash we can assume they don't exist. As I said earlier, I have seen the quality of the photographs you have produced in the past. Please do better then those.

Do you mean you will assume the photos of the ash, or the ash itself does not exist?

 

[000063]

...
No. You have shown that extremely flexible living breathing men can fit himself into a .06922 cubic meter sized box. But that man is an extreme example of flexibility and I doubt most Jews from the ghetto were able to replicate that specific accomplishment. Besides, the point is that there has never been a mass grave discovered that packed bodies to the density of one per .06922 cubic meters.

You mean you don't know of another mass grave with that density. And this sounds an awful lot like the "first time in history" argument I mentioned earlier.

 

[Matthew Ellard]

Do you mean you will assume the photos of the ash, or the ash itself does not exist?

Captain Howdy is already aware that some of the photos of piles of human ash were taken by Jacob Byck who was a member of the Polish investigation commission headed by examining judge Lukaszkiewicz. Captain Howdy is already aware that forensics confirmed the ash was human.

I believe that Captain Howdy wishes to assert that the 20,000 square metres of human ash were only 1 millimetre in depth and for this reason he needs to discredit the photos taken during the Polish investigation that show human ash piles that are metres in height. Oddly he ignores that Lukaszkiewicz already identified human ash in a mass grave as 7.5 metres deep.

The soil consists of ashes interspersed with sand, is of a dark gray color and granulous in form. During the excavations, the soil gave off an intense odor of burning and decay. At a depth of 7.5 meters the bottom was reached, which consisted of layers of unmixed sand

 

[marcus777]

Sorry to sidetrack.

Has this well known picture 'crowded bunks' been explained as to why the man was added into the picture leaning against the pillar?

I'm interested to know the reason behind manipulating the picture.

 

[Dcdrac]

That picture has been explained

 

[Nick Terry]

We cannot have a conversation if we don't agree on some basic parameters. Arad is a highly respected historian. I had assumed that what he has written about the Treblinka camp was based on accurate, well-established facts. I don't "believe" Arad because of some irrational faith in his awesomeness. I assumed that as the head of Yad Vashem he knew something about the Holocaust. I'm willing to dismiss his research and go forward on the basis that it's not possible to calculate the density of the mass graves at this point because we don't know how big they were or how many there were. If we're going to insist on density of the grave calculations, however, we must use Arad. That is because his is the only research that provides the information necessary for that calculation

This is utter nonsense. It's also the exact same tactic tried on by Dogzilla a year or so ago on this or the other HD discussion thread: creating an argument to authority even though that authority has clearly been superseded by the work of others.

Arad wrote his book on the Reinhard camps more than a quarter of a century ago. His discussion of the mass graves and cremation relies on a number of eyewitness testimonies some of which he may well quote to indicate various dimensions; and implicitly (but not really very explicitly) on the 1945 Polish investigation, whose results won't allow for any calculation of grave size/density.

After Arad published his book more than a quarter of a century ago, air photos of the Treblinka camp site became available. This new evidence is discussed in some detail by Alex Bay in his study on the Holocaust History Project website, and by Roberto Muehlenkamp in the white paper linked in my sig; in both cases using computer modelling techniques such as AutoCAD to calculate more precise dimensions of the 'inner camp' and also showing using visual evidence things about the condition of the site.

If you want further dimensions quoted from eyewitnesses (which is what resorting to Arad amounts to) then Sara Berger's new book Experten der Vernichtung adds a considerable amount of detail and is more comprehensive than Arad; it should be considered the currently definitive study of all three Reinhard camps. Berger cites Roberto's section of the white paper on precisely this issue of mass graves.

 

[Nick Terry]

Sorry to sidetrack.

Has this well known picture 'crowded bunks' been explained as to why the man was added into the picture leaning against the pillar?

I'm interested to know the reason behind manipulating the picture.

Actually the other way around. Newspapers airbrushed out the man by the pillar to make for what they thought was a better shot when cropped.