Continuation Part Six: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[Strozzi]

You raise a good point. Stefanoni claims the matter she tested from the knife blade which she alleges was the victim's DNA was a very small amount - so small in fact that it was consumed in one test. That means that the test could not be repeated which is a scientific requirement for the test to be regarded as valid and the results to be regarded as accurate.

I must ask if Stefanoni did not want others to be able to replicate her test because it might show her methods or conclusions to be faulty. Stefanoni withheld data generated during the test prep and testing procedure. Was the sample really consumed in her one test? Did she process the sample in such a way that it was only sufficient for one test? Was any more sample material available except for the amount consumed in her test?

 

[Strozzi]

By the way - where is Machiavelli with his spin on today's events? Apparently he was tweeting from the courtroom and stopped tweeting when the Ris Carabinieri was testifying.

Machiavelli seems to be an advisor to the prosecution. I think they are his priority right now. I look forward to reading his comments and perspective when he is able to return to this discussion board.

 

[LondonJohn]

I have been lurking in this discussion for a few weeks. The high quality of the discussion (Go-effrey aside) prompted me to sign up for JREF. This is only my second post, so please bear with me if I make some mistakes.

With the physical evidence pretty thoroughly and publicly debunked, the Florence court and the SC are likely looking for any way to get out of this mess with a shred of dignity intact. Since the SC stated that 36i would be critical, both courts may see this as an open door and walk through it. I hope that it is all over except for the face-saving.

Welcome! Don't worry about making mistakes - participation in any endeavour is bound to involve numerous mistakes (and occasional embarrassments) along the way, but as long as one is emotionally and intellectually honest, open-minded and rational, that's all that really matters

To be fair, I think there's still plenty of physical evidence to be overcome in order for the appeal court to acquit - I referred to it several posts ago (which is probably 2 or 3 pages back now, after the recent flurry of posts!). But I think that each and every of these obstacles can realistically be overcome by the defence teams, provided they don't take their eyes off the ball.

 

[RWVBWL]

Machiavelli seems to be an advisor to the prosecution. I think they are his priority right now. I look forward to reading his comments and perspective when he is able to return to this discussion board.

I don't know where Mach is, BUT another Italian writer is back!

Frank Sfarzo. Yea!

Link:
http://wrongfulconvictionnews.com/raffaele-sollecito-those-illusions-they-built-against-us/

 

[LondonJohn]

I don't know where Mach is, BUT another Italian writer is back!

Frank Sfarzo. Yea!

Link:
http://wrongfulconvictionnews.com/raffaele-sollecito-those-illusions-they-built-against-us/

Yes - decent article.

(I hope it doesn't need to be reiterated that Sfarzo's alleged domestic issues have zero relevance to his commentary/reporting on the Kercher case, and that his alleged defamation of Mignini will only be relevant if it is ever proven that such defamation actually occurred, and even then it will only be relevant on the narrow points proven).

By the way, just for everyone's info - whether pro-acquittal or pro-guilt - the Carabinieri RIS experts did indeed provide the court with the full set of source data for their DNA tests, including the EDFs with negative controls. As did Vecchiotti. And they all changed their gloves properly where required.

 

[andreajo]

Welcome! Don't worry about making mistakes - participation in any endeavour is bound to involve numerous mistakes (and occasional embarrassments) along the way, but as long as one is emotionally and intellectually honest, open-minded and rational, that's all that really matters

Thank-you for the welcome and encouragement, kind sir!

To be fair, I think there's still plenty of physical evidence to be overcome in order for the appeal court to acquit - I referred to it several posts ago (which is probably 2 or 3 pages back now, after the recent flurry of posts!). But I think that each and every of these obstacles can realistically be overcome by the defence teams, provided they don't take their eyes off the ball.

I don't think it's game over for the case as a whole at all. The appeal court needs to be convinced of a number of other very important things before it can acquit. These include the following:

- clear demonstration that the evidence is totally compatible with the murder having been committed by just one person (Guede)

- a convincing argument for the clear plausibility - and high possibility - of contamination on the bra clasp, thereby rendering Sollecito's DNA match on the clasp unreliable

- clear and unequivocal decoupling of Sollecito from the bathmat partial print (and simultaneous demonstration of Guede's compatibility)

- clear demonstration that the evidence points to the break-in having been real, rather than staged

- comprehensive and irreversible demolition of the testimony of Curatolo and Quintavalle

- Clear demonstration that the ToD (per gastro-intestinal contents) is completely incompatible with the earwitness testimony of Capezzali and Monacchia, and that these witnesses are either mistaken, lying, or heard an event which was not the murder

- Demolition of the crime scene evidence collection, with reference to the videos and C/V's expert report (particularly in regard to the mixed DNA in the bathroom, and the so-called footprints in the hallway)

Agreed. It was unfair to characterize the Nencini court as indifferent to evidence and logic alongside the SC, since we have yet to see what it will do. The points that you have enumerated remain.

That being said, one of the few new pieces of evidence accepted by the court, indeed ordered by the court, is this test of sample 36i which the SC sees as pivotal. If the appeals court rules for acquittal, they will need to frame the motivations report in terms that are palatable to the SC. Face-saving will be a fundamental part of any SC finalization of an acquittal. IMO the 36i test results are very important because they provide the SC with a reasonable face-saving way to finalize an acquittal following their scathing rejection of Hellman.

 

[Diocletus]

Granted, it was large compared to the quantity of DNA on 36I, but that's only because the quantity on 36I was minuscule even by low-template standards. The DNA present on Stefanoni's 36B was extremely low-template DNA ("too low", anyone...?).

Wait a minute. We don't know that 36i had less DNA than 36b. In fact, I think that 36b had less DNA than 36i.

36i had about 80 picograms of DNA in the entire remaining sample.

 

[Dan O.]

I have always been of the opinion that, given the prevailing climate of leaking and non-privacy, the defendants' attorneys advised them to keep the diaries and told them what to write. The lawyers knew the diaries would eventually make their ways into the press or court, and thus were means of the defendants defending themselves. That, I believe, is partly the reason Raffaele tried to explain how the DNA could have gotten on the knife.

You do realize that both Amanda and Raffaele started their writings on November 7th, a day beforer they would first meet their lawyers in court on the 8th.

 

[Diocletus]

You do realize that both Amanda and Raffaele started their writings on November 7th, a day beforer they would first meet their lawyers in court on the 8th.

Gee. I wonder who gave them the paper and pen while they were in solitary confinement and were denied counsel.

 

[Bill Williams]

Thank-you for the welcome and encouragement, kind sir!





Agreed. It was unfair to characterize the Nencini court as indifferent to evidence and logic alongside the SC, since we have yet to see what it will do. The points that you have enumerated remain.

That being said, one of the few new pieces of evidence accepted by the court, indeed ordered by the court, is this test of sample 36i which the SC sees as pivotal. If the appeals court rules for acquittal, they will need to frame the motivations report in terms that are palatable to the SC. Face-saving will be a fundamental part of any SC finalization of an acquittal. IMO the 36i test results are very important because they provide the SC with a reasonable face-saving way to finalize an acquittal following their scathing rejection of Hellman.

If I go for this thread of thinking at all....

.... perhaps the SC is looking to sign off on something that says, "The PLE were right to suspect Knox and Sollecito before the evidence came in, and the Massei Court was right to convict them, but the latest scientific equipment acquits them."

And maybe the ISC just wants the acquitting court to sluttify the thing once more, just for old times' sake, before it too can acquit.

That's what this has been about, and that, in my mind, is the ISC's version of "saving face" in this. It needs to sign off on something that implies that the 4 years in prison did not require the suspension of disbelief too much.

 

[Bill Williams]

Yes - decent article.

(I hope it doesn't need to be reiterated that Sfarzo's alleged domestic issues have zero relevance to his commentary/reporting on the Kercher case, and that his alleged defamation of Mignini will only be relevant if it is ever proven that such defamation actually occurred, and even then it will only be relevant on the narrow points proven).

By the way, just for everyone's info - whether pro-acquittal or pro-guilt - the Carabinieri RIS experts did indeed provide the court with the full set of source data for their DNA tests, including the EDFs with negative controls. As did Vecchiotti. And they all changed their gloves properly where required.

As opposed to Patrizia Stefanoni, seen here grasping the bra-clasp just before replacing it on the floor, for photographs of where it was "found", and then bagged so that it would not get contaminated.

 

[Grinder]

(I hope it doesn't need to be reiterated that Sfarzo's alleged domestic issues have zero relevance to his commentary/reporting on the Kercher case, and that his alleged defamation of Mignini will only be relevant if it is ever proven that such defamation actually occurred, and even then it will only be relevant on the narrow points proven).

Well if it turns out to be true that he lied about the nature of his run-in with the police in Perugia then this

"They have seen those things happen, after all. How to forget, for instance, Amanda’s statements in the police station, that the Supreme Court in April 2008 declared inadmissible? The Supreme Court said they couldn’t be used, but they used them anyway. That’s the law baby, they can do anything they want."
​

may be questioned. While I appreciate your comment I do think that Frank's alleged behavior doesn't help his or CD's credibility in that he was a main source for her.

Pity his stories aren't on a more legitimate site.

By the way, just for everyone's info - whether pro-acquittal or pro-guilt - the Carabinieri RIS experts did indeed provide the court with the full set of source data for their DNA tests, including the EDFs with negative controls. As did Vecchiotti. And they all changed their gloves properly where required.

Once again it would appear that the Carabinieri are not worried about making Stefi and the municipal police look bad, which is a good thing.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

a writer writes

Gee. I wonder who gave them the paper and pen while they were in solitary confinement and were denied counsel.

IIRC Candace wrote that some prison guard told Amanda, you are a writer, you should write. No page number handy, sorry.

 

[Bill Williams]

Well if it turns out to be true that he lied about the nature of his run-in with the police in Perugia then this

"They have seen those things happen, after all. How to forget, for instance, Amanda’s statements in the police station, that the Supreme Court in April 2008 declared inadmissible? The Supreme Court said they couldn’t be used, but they used them anyway. That’s the law baby, they can do anything they want."
​

may be questioned. While I appreciate your comment I do think that Frank's alleged behavior doesn't help his or CD's credibility in that he was a main source for her.

Pity his stories aren't on a more legitimate site.




Once again it would appear that the Carabinieri are not worried about making Stefi and the municipal police look bad, which is a good thing.

LOL on the highlighted part. Yes, we get it... you don't like Dempsey!

I still think she once cut you off in traffic.....

 

[Bill Williams]

IIRC Candace wrote that some prison guard told Amanda, you are a writer, you should write. No page number handy, sorry.

I believe that was one of the nuns, was it not?

 

[Grinder]

LOL on the highlighted part. Yes, we get it... you don't like Dempsey!

I still think she once cut you off in traffic.....

you get very little. Frank was a big source for CD in that she was only in Perugia on a very limited basis, couldn't translate by herself and needed something for her blog.

why don't just stick to satanic rants and dissing Vogt and Mach.

Frank alleged that the police came to his place and harassed him for no reason at the behest of Mignini, if that turns out not be true but that it really involved his mother and sister then that brings his objectivity into play.

 

[GreyFox]

Bulls Eye !!!

First day back on the job and Franks knocking them outta the park !

"old people who judge the customs of young people that they read through the lenses of their imagination. And in their imagination a joint may be evil, and young –in truth inexperienced– kids engage themselves in orgies or rape each other… There’s nothing more tasteless, to use a euphemism, than old people talking about the sex of young people".


Welcome back Frank.

 

[Bill Williams]

you get very little. Frank was a big source for CD in that she was only in Perugia on a very limited basis, couldn't translate by herself and needed something for her blog.

why don't just stick to satanic rants and dissing Vogt and Mach.

Frank alleged that the police came to his place and harassed him for no reason at the behest of Mignini, if that turns out not be true but that it really involved his mother and sister then that brings his objectivity into play.

At least they never cut me off in traffic!

 

[Bill Williams]

If this had been the reporting in the U.K. in 2007-'08, then justice would have arrived a lot sooner for the Kerchers, and Knox and Sollecito would not have been wrongfully prosecuted - as much as they have been....

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/justice-but-not-as-we-know-it-meredith-kercher-retrial-marches-on-without-amanda-knox-8927032.html

It’s Hamlet without the Prince. And the fact that the re-trial of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito for the murder of English exchange student Meredith Kercher is taking place in the absence of Ms Knox – it began in earnest yesterday – paradoxically makes it more likely that justice will be done.

Yet, as the first day of the retrial yesterday indicated, imagination – the diseased imagination of the profoundly buttoned-up – was all there was to it. At the original trial the prosecution claimed to have found the murder weapon: a kitchen knife removed by police from Raffaele Sollecito’s kitchen. Forensic experts testified that Sollecito’s and Knox’s traces were on the handle – hardly surprising as they used it for slicing bread – while the DNA of murder victim Meredith Kercher was on the tip of the blade. But as was revealed in court this week, a fresh examination for the re-trial found no trace of Ms Kercher anywhere on the knife. What remains is an ordinary kitchen knife, chosen, as the cop at the first trial explained disarmingly, by his “investigator’s intuition”.

And as there is no other evidence linking either Amanda or Raffaele to the murder scene, the judges are face to face with the perverted imaginations of the people who put these modern innocents in the dock in the first place, and then in jail. A hideous wrong has been done. It is high time it was undone.

"(T)he diseased imagination of the profoundly buttoned-up". Machiavelli - this is who you and Vogt are defending.....

 

[Bill Williams]

First day back on the job and Franks knocking them outta the park !

"old people who judge the customs of young people that they read through the lenses of their imagination. And in their imagination a joint may be evil, and young –in truth inexperienced– kids engage themselves in orgies or rape each other… There’s nothing more tasteless, to use a euphemism, than old people talking about the sex of young people".


Welcome back Frank.

Frank unleashed is a force to be reckoned with. No wonder people hate him, and try their best to bring peripheral things to play to undermine him! He's the original - as KayPea says - junk yard dog.