• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Continuation Part Six: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

Status
Not open for further replies.
I have mixed feelings here. If he was a sock puppet then the rules require banning and I understand that. If he was serious (I wasn't sure of that) then I didn't see anything else that he did that required banning . Allowing people to post here that have contrary positions to the JREF standardized poster seems kind of like the point of the place to me.

LondonJohn posted a great answer to one of his posts that seems moot now that he has left us, but I thought I'd cut and paste it anyway for one more play. It didn't seem likely that Goefrey was going to make his way all the way through it though. LJ failed to mention buying panties or anything at all about Knox's sex life so I didn't expect Goefrey to jump on it right away.

As an aside, I notice that Goefrey as we knew him has been wiped from the face of the earth. Wow, when they ban you now they're serious. All that remains of Geofry is in the posts where people have quoted him.

I'm not a fan of the banning, this is what the folks did to anyone who was pro innocence on the forum I began following the case at, so it ended up being totally one sided echo chamber.

Seems to me the same thing could have been accomplished by simply ignoring him but I'm sure you guys will wax poetically on all the reasons why I am mistaken
 
It's all about the forum rules. The mods don't give people a special pass just because they're Knox guilters and we don't want to stoop to the level of PMF. He was banned because he broke forum rules.

Banned posters aren't allowed to come back with new names. No matter who they are. It's not really up to anyone on this thread what happens to him.

Rolfe.
 
Thank you Tesla. I get a bit confused. Is this considered a completely new trial? If so , why is evidence being disallowed? Or is this a new appeal trial ? This is why I asked if they were reverted back to the original guilty verdict. They were still in prison during the first appeal, so there current status seems blurred to me.

You're not alone being confused..so is everyone else. The questions you are asking have been asked by all of us. You're just a little late coming to the party. I think you must be like me. An American. We keep expecting a "new" trial from scratch. But this process doesn't seem anything like that. Does it?

Well remember Poppy, they were in prison even before the first trial. So it stands to reason they would be in jail after their conviction.

It's weird, but there are people accused of crimes in Italy that don't see a prison until the SC rules. Consider Mignini. He was tried and convicted in his first trial and he didn't go to jail.

But the thing to remember..(I believe) They are presently only accused of murder...they are guilty of nothing....well that's not true. Presently Amanda is consider guilty of Callunia..but technically, she served that sentence.
 
Thank you Tesla. I get a bit confused. Is this considered a completely new trial? If so , why is evidence being disallowed? Or is this a new appeal trial ? This is why I asked if they were reverted back to the original guilty verdict. They were still in prison during the first appeal, so there current status seems blurred to me.

It is the appeal trial following the original conviction rendered in 2009. In this appeal, from my understanding, all evidence and testimony from Hellmann stands and the presiding judge decides what evidence he allows(apart from SC suggestions), just as Hellmann decided back in 2010.
 
Last edited:
Seems to me the same thing could have been accomplished by simply ignoring him but I'm sure you guys will wax poetically on all the reasons why I am mistaken

Once upon a midnight dreary, yimyammer pondered, weak and weary,...
 
A Google search shows there are some white ones with a black swath on the side but these are the newer models of course.

The problem is Outbreaks are not that popular anymore and it's hard to find old models, there are not alot of new ones too. Outbreaks are considerably cheapier that Dunks or Air Force 1s.

For me the black thing on the side cannot be identified, it's kind of too big to be Nike Outbreak, but at the same time, the resolution of the picture is poor, the lightning is even worse. I think it's completely impossible to determine what kind of shoes the person is wearing, apart from the fact that they are, most probably white, sneakers.
Typical Nike Outbreak, model from 2010-2011.
 

Attachments

  • pol_pm_Meskie-Sportowe-Buty-Do-Biegania-Nike-Outbreak-316593-102-7473_1.jpg
    pol_pm_Meskie-Sportowe-Buty-Do-Biegania-Nike-Outbreak-316593-102-7473_1.jpg
    10.2 KB · Views: 2
Last edited:
You're right Grinder, this isn't football. If it was my quarterback would have been running for his life. (But we would still somehow win the game)

With all due respect Grinder, the argument that the TMB test produced a false negative just doesn't hold up to scrutiny. There is a reason that this test is performed and it has little to do with sensitivity. It has to do with specificity. It is a highly sensitive test itself and given how brightly the Luminol reacted showing the shoe prints suggests that it wasn't highly diluted blood but another substance entirely.

The "gap" between a highly diluted blood sample reacting positively to Luminol and reacting negatively is extremely small and VERY UNLIKELY. While still possible dismissing the NEGATIVE TMB test without a positive confirmatory test is NEVER called for.

So really it's more like
Luminol 7
TMB 67

You seem to know a lot about this. How narrow is the sensitivity window?

What does the following say about being a a different substance it is reacting to?

Like the presumptive chemical color tests phenolphthalin (PT)
(9) and tetramethylbenzidine (TMB) (10), the luminol reaction is
driven by the peroxidase-like activity of heme.
 
I know Charlie, but it bothers me that Grinder or anyone takes this tack of dismissing the negative TMB test. The fact is that scientists including Stefanoni (I guess I'm using this term loosely today) respect the TMB test and that is why they perform it.

If Stefanoni thought for any reason that the TMB produced a false negative it would be incumbent upon her to do the necessary testing to make that conclusion.

Instead, Stefanoni proved herself to be a shill and a whore. She sold herself and her integrity as a scientist. Grinder makes me angry because he is playing games. He is allowing the prosecution the right to argue that it is blood with highly doubtful evidence. I expect that from Machiavelli, I don't expect it from Grinder.

I don't dismiss the TMB test it just doesn't prove it wasn't blood even if you shout it over and over. It just doesn't.

I have said over and over that it was the job of the prosecution to prove it was blood and they didn't do that, therefore it isn't evidence.'

This is like CD's speck turning out to be starch when no one credible has ever said that.

You make me mad because you spout stuff as fact that you can't back up.

Do you have any proof that Rudy had no luck with the ladies? One example.
 
I don't dismiss the TMB test it just doesn't prove it wasn't blood even if you shout it over and over. It just doesn't.

I have said over and over that it was the job of the prosecution to prove it was blood and they didn't do that, therefore it isn't evidence.'

This is like CD's speck turning out to be starch when no one credible has ever said that.

You make me mad because you spout stuff as fact that you can't back up.

Do you have any proof that Rudy had no luck with the ladies? One example.

I seem to remember something from an interview with one of the downstairs boys. I will try to track down when I get a chance.
 
I'm not a fan of the banning, this is what the folks did to anyone who was pro innocence on the forum I began following the case at, so it ended up being totally one sided echo chamber.

Seems to me the same thing could have been accomplished by simply ignoring him but I'm sure you guys will wax poetically on all the reasons why I am mistaken

I agree with you and I'm glad you said it. It was pitiful to watch. This clown was pitching arguments like "it was a sex crime so therefore Amanda's sex life is relevant." And people were responding in detail, giving him exactly what he wanted. Naturally he teed up more of the same drivel, sat back, and enjoyed the show.

It reminds me of Lucy yanking away the football so Charlie Brown lands on his ass. After the hundredth time, who is to blame?
 
I am pretty certain that Rafaelle should not be compared to the Westboro Baptist church. If I were just acquitted of a murder I did not commit I think I might, if a friend had offered me the choice and if I was in the country, go and pay my respects to the victim. I think I would even do it if I thought I might be put into prison again later. It would be a closure of some sort. Perhaps though Amanda Knox may be advised not to until she has the blessing of the Kercher family, even though the PGP community will surely make much of the fact that one does and the other doesn't. I think Amanda Knox put it well when she expressed the desire to mourn Meredith together with the family, though she was pilloried for it (Nick Pisa calling it a "bizarre request" which seems about the most unfair comment you could possibly make, except for all the others that are made).

First of all the example was in context of people having some moral right to ask people to respect the grave of a loved one not to compare Westborg with Raf.

After a final acquittal things change. Even Edda said they would wait until then to approach the Kerchers.

They just acquitted as they are still on trial. I don't know when Raf visited but Amanda made her comment after the SC ruled.
 
The thing about the TMB tests is this. I have posted cites sfrom forensic manuals where they test a Luminol positive with another presumptive test. If that is negative, the assumption is it is not blood and nothing further is done. The reason for this is because of Luminols high sensitivity to a lot of things and they want to make sure it is blood it is reacting to. In Stefi's case, instead of making the assumption it was not blood, she made the assumption it was. This makes no sense to me. The SOP is do a confirmatory test after two positive presumptive tests. I can't imagine an assumption of blood after the negative TMB test without even attempting a confirmatory test. My guess is that she did test them and that they were negative, yet again.
 
The problem is Outbreaks are not that popular anymore and it's hard to find old models, there are not alot of new ones too. Outbreaks are considerably cheapier that Dunks or Air Force 1s.

For me the black thing on the side cannot be identified, it's kind of too big to be Nike Outbreak, but at the same time, the resolution of the picture is poor, the lightning is even worse. I think it's completely impossible to determine what kind of shoes the person is wearing, apart from the fact that they are, most probably white, sneakers.
Typical Nike Outbreak, model from 2010-2011.

Thanks, snook1. I will keep looking for a description (color) of Rudy's shoes.
 
She is not alone in that; she has company.
Halides1

Am I missing something, if sample 36B is confirmed as Amanda’s DNA how does this change anything?

Isn’t the pivotal DNA issue how will the court deal with the independent report findings (V & C) from the annulled appeal?
 
Halides1

Am I missing something, if sample 36B is confirmed as Amanda’s DNA how does this change anything?

Isn’t the pivotal DNA issue how will the court deal with the independent report findings (V & C) from the annulled appeal?

The strange thing is that even if Nencini dials back science to Stefanoni, Nencini still has the option of ruling differently than Massei on what Stefanoni presented about Meredith and the knife.

Remember, Stefanoni reported that the trace was so small that only one test was possible. So instead of the destructive test to determine vomposition, she chose the destructive test to determine whose it was. It was Massei who punted that one, really. Once again one would need to explain why such a trace sample would be there? Esp. When the claim is that such a small amount is because it had been cleaned? Which leads to the most likely explanation IF some future release of the EDFs confirms Stefanoni's work.

That most likely explanation is contamination. Even if rejecting C&V, Nencini still has plenty of room to overrule Massei's ridiculous ruling about Stef's work.
 
You seem to know a lot about this. How narrow is the sensitivity window?

What does the following say about being a a different substance it is reacting to?

Like the presumptive chemical color tests phenolphthalin (PT)
(9) and tetramethylbenzidine (TMB) (10), the luminol reaction is
driven by the peroxidase-like activity of heme.

A multiple presumptive test protocol is administered so false positives may be filtered out. Virtually all of the literature warns of false positive reactions with little mentioned about false negatives.
The process From the Biological Crime Scene SJSU
The Forensic Analysis of Blood.
1. Visual Examination of Evidence
2. Presumptive screening test (Is it blood?)
a. Perform at least two of the presumptive tests Benzidine, Phenolphthalein, O-Tolidine, Tetramethylbenzidine, Luminol, Fluorescein, etc.
3. Confirmation test (Seriously, is it blood?)
Due to the possibility of false positives with the presumptive tests, Confirmatory tests are necessary they involve making crystals that detect the presence of hemoglobin. ie: Teichmann or Takayama Test
4. Determine species origin (human blood?)
5. Identify the blood (whose blood is it?)

According to pretty much everything I have read Grinder the real problem facing forensic scientists are not false negatives, but false positives. Thus, the multiple step process. While false negatives can happen, usually the result of aged or degraded test solutions, determining that a negative test is false should not be done lightly, only conclusively.
 
The thing about the TMB tests is this. I have posted cites sfrom forensic manuals where they test a Luminol positive with another presumptive test. If that is negative, the assumption is it is not blood and nothing further is done. The reason for this is because of Luminols high sensitivity to a lot of things and they want to make sure it is blood it is reacting to. In Stefi's case, instead of making the assumption it was not blood, she made the assumption it was. This makes no sense to me. The SOP is do a confirmatory test after two positive presumptive tests. I can't imagine an assumption of blood after the negative TMB test without even attempting a confirmatory test. My guess is that she did test them and that they were negative, yet again.


As I've written quite a few times in the recent past, there is a primary reason why the proper 2-step TMB test has much higher specificity for blood than Luminol (i.e. it returns far fewer false positives than Luminol).

The reason is this: TMB and Luminol both react to oxidants that may be present in the substance being tested. TMB reacts by changing colour, and Luminol reacts by luminescing for a short time.

However, blood is not an oxidant.

That's why both tests - Luminol and TMB - also require the presence of peroxide (usually hydrogen peroxide, H2O2). In the presence of the heme ions within red blood cells, the peroxide is subjected to a peroxidase reaction which releases an oxygen ion that then oxidises the heme ion, and produces water (H2O) as a byproduct.

This oxidised heme ion then can act as the oxidant in the reaction with either TMB or Luminol.

So the first important thing is this: neither Luminol or TMB will react to blood without the additional presence of peroxide

Still with me?! (Hope so!)

Now, the reason why this above point is so important is that both Luminol and TMB will react to ANY oxidant - it's only if that oxidant is the oxidised heme ion that's the product of the peroxidase process on the peroxide that it will react to the presence of blood.

And this leads to important point number two: Luminol testing applies the Luminol and the peroxide at the same time - it's therefore impossible to tell whether any luminescence reaction is the result of oxidised heme ions (via the interaction with the peroxide) or whether it's the result of direct oxidation by another oxidant.

In other words, if your Luminol glows, you're unable to distinguish whether you're looking at blood or an oxidant (examples of oxidants include many acids, bleach, and a variety of common household cleaning products).

But in the two-step TMB test, you're able to screen for oxidants because the application of the TMB alone forms part one of the test. Remember that blood does not oxidise TMB unless peroxide is also present. Therefore, if the application of TMB alone produces a colour change, this clearly shows that an oxidant (i.e. NOT BLOOD) is present.

Now, if the TMB does not change colour in the first step (i.e. the application of the TMB alone), this is good news if you're looking for blood. It's good news because what you do then is apply part two of the test: you apply peroxide on top of the TMB. If the TMB now changes colour, it tells you that you very likely have blood, since the colour change is almost certain to have occurred as a result of the peroxide oxidating the heme ion, which in turn oxidised the TMB.

So the final important point is this: the two-step TMB test gives the ability to screen out all latent oxidants (in a way that the Luminol test cannot do), and if it shows negative to step one then positive to step two, then the substance under test almost certainly contains blood.


The scientific definition of the above point is that the two-stepTMB test has extremely high specificity for blood. The Luminol test has low specificity for blood - owing to its inability to distinguish between blood and any oxidants present. And this is EXACTLY why forensic scientists follow up a positive Luminol test with a 2-step TMB test: positive to Luminol tells them that blood might be present (but equally a whole variety of different oxidants might be present instead), and a 2-step TMB test then tells them with far higher confidence whether or not blood is present.

So if a sample tests positive for Luminol, it should then be subjected to the 2-step TMB test. If this 2-step test gives a positive in the first step, then it's likely that the substance causing the Luminol positive was not blood, but was instead an oxidant of some sort. If the first step gives a negative, but the second step gives a positive, then it's very likely that the substance being tested is blood. The tester should then move on to a confirmatory test for blood, and potential DNA analysis if possible.
 
Last edited:
Unfortunately this is true. Ever look into Global warming? Oil companies hire lots of people to say just what they want them to say.


And those who sing the praises of now-thoroughly-discredited-and-struck-off Dr Andrew Wakefield could do worse than check up who was helping sponsor his research into the link between the MMR vaccine and autism/IBD (hint: these sponsors had a commercial interest in Wakefield finding a link...)
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Back
Top Bottom