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Continuation Part Six: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

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And, just because no discussion of Stefanoni and her band of idiots would be complete without it: behold the notorious "mop-wrapping" incident from that same second collection run in December 2007 (from between 1:00 and 2:10 in the video):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ySCwcZD5Dk

I particularly like the theatrical "show" of the inside of the giftwrap paper to the camera at 1:37 - as if this was some sort of magic trick being performed....

Note also that even once the mop has been wrapped in the giftwrap, it's then carried around aimlessly for a further number of minutes, as if nobody knows quite what to do with it. Clearly a bunch of highly professional and experienced investigators......
 
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LondonJohn said:
You urgently need to get in touch with both the Illinois Supreme Court and Dr Karl Reich of the UCLA and Harvard, to tell them they're wrong!

http://www.state.il.us/court/Opinions/SupremeCourt/2009/September/104443.pdf

Here's an interesting passage from that appeal (my highlighting and parentheses):




The parallels between the TMB issues this case and the Kercher case are extremely illuminating and somewhat chilling. The police forensic scientist (Camp) had tested a print with TMB. The test came back negative for blood. Camp decided a) that this was a false negative, and b) that the negative TMB test need not be volunteered to the defence. Camp testified in the trial that the substance tested was blood, without mentioning the negative TMB test at all; she only admitted to the existence of the negative TMB test (which she then continued to maintain was a "false negative") under direct questioning during the trial itself. Sound familiar yet?

The Illinois Supreme Court found that this mendacity and obfuscation by the forensic scientist constituted in itself grounds to reverse the conviction and request a retrial (there were other grounds too, but the ruling makes it clear that the TMB issue alone necessitated a reversal).

Food for thought.......
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Awesome post, LJ. Can't wait for Mach's reply.
 
Matthew Best said:
From LondonJohn's link:

"Dr. Karl Reich, who holds a degree in molecular biology from the University of California, Los Angeles and Harvard University, was prepared to testify that ... a negative TMB test strongly suggests that there is no blood in the area tested."
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Damn! I of course intended to include that clause in my original quote, but forgot to do so in the course of having to retype the passage (since cut and paste from that .pdf turned out to be a nightmare!).

Thanks for highlighting it though - it's central to the argument.

ETA: I've now edited my original post to append it to the quote there, for the sake of clarity and completion.
 
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Matthew Best said:
That was very interesting, thanks for the link. I am relieved to read that Lovejoy was eventually convicted in a retrial.
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Yes - there was clearly sufficient other evidence to prove his guilt beyond all reasonable doubt.

And of course that's where the parallels with the Knox/Sollecito trials come to a shuddering halt........
 
when the information is made available too late, the trial has become unfair

The opinion on Lovejoy also stated, "Further, if defendant were made aware of Camp’s conclusion that the TMB test produced a false negative because the LCV used all the hemoglobin in the blood, he could have called an expert to refute this contention during his case in chief, or could have chosen to pursue a different line of defense altogether. Defendant was prejudiced when Camp’s conclusions were revealed for the first time at trial." link. One take-home message from the Lovejoy case is that when something like this is revealed sufficiently late into the trial, the whole process has become compromised. The defense's tactics might change, for example.
 
Planigale said:
Laboratories tend to be quite introspective. Their nature is that they accumulate 'occult' knowledge, they have their own ways of doing things. This can be good, but also bad. For research labs, your rivals will validate your research by replicating your results, but for commercial / service labs this does not happen. I imagine that being a state lab there were financial pressures, one would try to be economical with reagents, cut corners. A phrase I learned recently is 'normalisation of deviancy'. Ideally the lab is part of some form of external quality review process. External experts come into your lab, review your SOP, protocols, check your maintenance logs look at your QC. This stops the drift into bad habits, idiosyncratic practice.

I suspect that corners were cut, why do controls every run, just do them at the beginning of the day. If you are careful to avoid contamination, they are not really necessary. This is all fine until someone asks to see them. I think Steph was well intentioned, but things had slipped. She pulled out all stops to get the results to get the evidence needed for a conviction. Now they have a mess. If they admit they have cut corners and results are not certain in this case, lawyers may start questioning other results for other cases.
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Thank you for the reply, there was one positive contribution made by the Return of Dr. Tesla (The Zombie Redux) and that was this picture he dug up of Dr. Stefanoni:



Does this lady look like she has something to hide?​
 
LondonJohn said:
You urgently need to get in touch with both the Illinois Supreme Court and Dr Karl Reich of the UCLA and Harvard, to tell them they're wrong!

http://www.state.il.us/court/Opinions/SupremeCourt/2009/September/104443.pdf

Here's an interesting passage from that appeal (my highlighting and parentheses):




The parallels between the TMB issues this case and the Kercher case are extremely illuminating and somewhat chilling. The police forensic scientist (Camp) had tested a print with TMB. The test came back negative for blood. Camp decided a) that this was a false negative, and b) that the negative TMB test need not be volunteered to the defence. Camp testified in the trial that the substance tested was blood, without mentioning the negative TMB test at all; she only admitted to the existence of the negative TMB test (which she then continued to maintain was a "false negative") under direct questioning during the trial itself. Sound familiar yet?

The Illinois Supreme Court found that this mendacity and obfuscation by the forensic scientist constituted in itself grounds to reverse the conviction and request a retrial (there were other grounds too, but the ruling makes it clear that the TMB issue alone necessitated a reversal).

Food for thought.......
Click to expand...

Great post, you're on fire today LJ! There was a brilliant one about the interrogation that deserves compliments too, maybe Dr. Tesla/Goeffrey didn't make it through it, but I did and thought it worthy of praise as well.
 
The latest rewrite

At another discussion board an anonymous PG commenter wrote, "Whoever expressed the idea that Meredith's DNA would be in this new trace? Certainly not the prosecution. It is only the defense who are trying to spin this test to deny there ever was Meredith's DNA at the tip of the knife. It is basically still the same old argument that failed in the first trial." IIRC the notion that it might be Meredith's DNA was discussed at the "Math on Trial" thread at Injustice Anywhere. If the prosecution did not think that Meredith's DNA might be found, why would they want it tested? I suppose one could argue that Guede's DNA would also be significant, but I don't recall hearing anyone suggest it.
 
acbytesla said:
Maybe this Football, or Futbol score is better
Luminol 1
TMB 1
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If it tests negative with TMB that's evidence that the chance of blood being present is negligible, as would be any amount under the threshold of that very sensitive test.

Speaking of football...there's a game on tonight! Here's one of my favorite pictures from the longest and most storied rivalry in the NFL. I think it aptly sums up just how the last twenty years have gone, and a spoiler box is necessary to protect the innocent from the ugly reality:


​
​
 
Kaosium said:
If it tests negative with TMB that's evidence that the chance of blood being present is negligible, as would be any amount under the threshold of that very sensitive test.

Speaking of football...there's a game on tonight! Here's one of my favorite pictures from the longest and most storied rivalry in the NFL. I think it aptly sums up just how the last twenty years have gone, and a spoiler box is necessary to protect the innocent from the ugly reality:

​
Click to expand...

My team is doing it with smoke and mirrors. How they ended up winning after falling behind 21-0 is a mystery.
 
How is this even possible?

and for my 2nd post, I'd just like to ask how it is possible that Mr. Guede -- with all the evidence pointing to him as the person who murdered an innocent young woman -- was given a 16-year sentence.

How is that possible? Even if served the whole time, he'd get out in his thirties, with a long life ahead of him.

He killed Meredith Kercher with a knife and then went dancing. He left Italy, probably using the money that was supposed to pay her November rent at the villa for his traveling expenses.

Sixteen years, Italy? Really?
 
Kaosium said:
If it tests negative with TMB that's evidence that the chance of blood being present is negligible, as would be any amount under the threshold of that very sensitive test.

Speaking of football...there's a game on tonight! Here's one of my favorite pictures from the longest and most storied rivalry in the NFL. I think it aptly sums up just how the last twenty years have gone, and a spoiler box is necessary to protect the innocent from the ugly reality:

​
Click to expand...


:D

Well they're tearing up the Bears secondary on their opening drive.....

I may stay up long enough to see out the first quarter, then it's sleepytime (it's 1.47am here!)
 
kwill said:
and for my 2nd post, I'd just like to ask how it is possible that Mr. Guede -- with all the evidence pointing to him as the person who murdered an innocent young woman -- was given a 16-year sentence.

How is that possible? Even if served the whole time, he'd get out in his thirties, with a long life ahead of him.

He killed Meredith Kercher with a knife and then went dancing. He left Italy, probably using the money that was supposed to pay her November rent at the villa for his traveling expenses.

Sixteen years, Italy? Really?
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I know - disgusting isn't it.

It's essentially because his sentence was originally 30 years (which in itself was at the lenient end, but the prosecution declined to appeal the sentence). However, after Knox and Sollecito were sentenced by Massei to 24 years for the murder element, Guede's sentence was adjusted at his appeal to match those meted out to Knox and Sollecito. And since Guede was eligible for the 1/3 sentence discount for taking the fast-track trial option, this put his sentence at 16 years.

One can only hope that the Italian prison system has had some measure of success in rehabilitating and re-educating Guede, such that he poses little or no risk upon release. I'm not holding my breath on that one though...
 
acbytesla said:
My team is doing it with smoke and mirrors. How they ended up winning after falling behind 21-0 is a mystery.
Click to expand...

It might have had something to do with their opposition being the second-worst team in the NFL (behind the unspeakably-bad Jaguars, who graced my shores with their ineptitude last week).

Still, consider yourself very lucky. I'm a Bills fan (owing to a meeting in my teenage years with Jim Kelly, Thurman Thomas and several of the Bills cheerleaders :D). Imagine being a Bills fan for just a few moments......
 
kwill said:
and for my 2nd post, I'd just like to ask how it is possible that Mr. Guede -- with all the evidence pointing to him as the person who murdered an innocent young woman -- was given a 16-year sentence.

How is that possible? Even if served the whole time, he'd get out in his thirties, with a long life ahead of him.

He killed Meredith Kercher with a knife and then went dancing. He left Italy, probably using the money that was supposed to pay her November rent at the villa for his traveling expenses.

Sixteen years, Italy? Really?
Click to expand...

It's actually less than that. He is eligible for release next year.
 
LondonJohn said:
It might have had something to do with their opposition being the second-worst team in the NFL (behind the unspeakably-bad Jaguars, who graced my shores with their ineptitude last week).

Still, consider yourself very lucky. I'm a Bills fan (owing to a meeting in my teenage years with Jim Kelly, Thurman Thomas and several of the Bills cheerleaders :D). Imagine being a Bills fan for just a few moments......
Click to expand...

When 60 percent of your offensive line starters are out as well as half your starting wide receiving corp, you keep wondering how your luck can hold out.

If the Seahawks didn't get lucky last year and got Russell Wilson in the third round we would be an 8 win team for the entire season. Luckily, we got the miracle man and we are 8-1. Don't tell me there isn't luck in football.

And BTW, thank you for Marshawn Lynch. We appreciate the Bills contribution to the Seahawks.

Totally Off topic. Sorry, if some of you aren't football fans. Oh and Rudy did it!!!:D
 
acbytesla said:
It's actually less than that. He is eligible for release next year.
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Mignini referred to Rudy in court as "poor Rudy." Does that mean Mignini really believes Rudy was led and manipulated by dynamic Amanda to participate in a murder? Or does Mignini know better? That Rudy is his own man, engaged in his own career as a repeat burglar.

Rudy is up for possible limited release next year. I think Rudy needs a successful mature man to guide him in his rehabilitation. Do you think Mignini might take in "poor Rudy"? Offer him a room at the Mignini house? I understand Mignini has several daughters. Offering Rudy a place to stay should work out well. When Mr. and Mrs. Mignini go out to dinner, poor Rudy can watch the girls for them.:jaw-dropp:jaw-dropp:jaw-dropp
 
his sentence was too short

kwill said:
and for my 2nd post, I'd just like to ask how it is possible that Mr. Guede -- with all the evidence pointing to him as the person who murdered an innocent young woman -- was given a 16-year sentence.

How is that possible? Even if served the whole time, he'd get out in his thirties, with a long life ahead of him.

He killed Meredith Kercher with a knife and then went dancing. He left Italy, probably using the money that was supposed to pay her November rent at the villa for his traveling expenses.

Sixteen years, Italy? Really?
Click to expand...
This point needs to be repeated. Our own RoseMontague has written an essay on the subject of his sentence.
 
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