Continuation Part Six: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[Bill Williams]

Natural justice? Not even Vecchiotti turned out the raw data unrequested: there was a request (and the request is in the records).
When RIS summoned the defence experts, the defence experts came, they attended the work, and they were given the documentation they wanted (just like Vecchiotti and Conti declared - and please, don't forget this - they declared before a judge that they were granted unfettered access to all documentation by Stefanoni, and they praised the police for their total cooperation). This is what Vecchiotti and Conti said: they said they were given all the documentation they requested.

Vecchiotti and Conti declared this: this declaration alone should make everybody of you assume that Stefanoni never prevented access to any documentation.
Despite this, you decide to claim the opposite of what Vecchiotti and Conti said.

You go on saying that Stefanoni did something unusual against Knox or Sollecito. The fact is, the prosecution experts, as far as all cases I know about, they simply never, never deposited raw data at the clerk's office. Stefanoni simply did what she always did and there was nothign strange in that, regardless of the fact that you don't like the rules of the game.

Now we're getting somewhere The "rules of the game" in Italy, have nothing to do with natural justice.

I can't believe you typed what you just typed and don't feel the least bit embarrassed.

 

[RandyN]

Thanks for the post but I guess I'm an idiot because I can't make any sense out of that translation, am I alone?

LOL...I doubt it.

You have to be able to translate Google translate first. All the he's mean her and all the hers mean him. Got that? And Doctor Comfortable is actually Commodi who is not a doctor but rather Migninis assistant in the prosecution...although Comode gets awful close to a literal description of where her and Migninis work belongs.

Let me translate please. You can put lip stick on a pig but it is still a pig.

The only facts about the cctv time is that the clock was 12 minutes slow and not 10 minutes fast as the prosecution attempted to lie about by creating smoke and mirror tricks with DST which was meaningless and designed to attempt to introduce more confusion. This translation points out that the defense called the guy out for introducing pointless BS and the only fact remains that the clock was 12 minutes slow.

 

[Machiavelli]

Snore.... so now after typing copious lines saying they never requested them, now you're saying they DID request them.
(...)

Do you understand the difference between the investigation, the preliminary hearing, the trial (which has a dibattimento=an evidentiary phase).

The defence experts were granted access during the investigation.

The judge declared the defence requests were inadmissible at that stage because they should have been investigation requests, and the defence experts were already working abd could have done them.

 

[Machiavelli]

Now we're getting somewhere The "rules of the game" in Italy, have nothing to do with natural justice.
(...)

This is your opinion, all opinions are legitimate, but this does not make the assertion "Stefanoni refuses to turn over data" become true. Said statement is FALSE, regardless if you think the system is fair or not.

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

Thanks for the post but I guess I'm an idiot because I can't make any sense out of that translation, am I alone?

You're not an idiot. The translation is bad, and the witness is being evasive.

I understand it because I know the whole story. Police claimed they arrived 20 minutes before Raffaele called the emergency number. To make that claim fit with what is shown on the garage camera, they had to say the clock on the camera was 10 minutes fast.

In this exchange, she corners a police witness on the stand with a simple question: how did you determine the clock on the garage camera was 10 minutes fast? He makes up some garbage about looking it up on the Internet before finally admitting it was because someone told him, but he can't remember the name of that person.

She of course knew the truth, which is that the camera clock was 10-12 minutes slow. She had examined the clip that showed the arrival of the Carabinieri. The Carabinieri could hardly have arrived before they spent 5 minutes on the phone trying to get directions, which is what the time stamp on the camera clock would suggest.

Once the correct adjustment is made, the Postal Police are shown to have arrived when Raffaele said they did, just a few minutes after he ended his second call to the emergency number.

 

[RoseMontague]

You're not an idiot. The translation is bad, and the witness is being evasive.

I understand it because I know the whole story. Police claimed they arrived 20 minutes before Raffaele called the emergency number. To make that claim fit with what is shown on the garage camera, they had to say the clock on the camera was 10 minutes fast.

In this exchange, she corners a police witness on the stand with a simple question: how did you determine the clock on the garage camera was 10 minutes fast? He makes up some garbage about looking it up on the Internet before finally admitting it was because someone told him, but he can't remember the name of that person.

She of course knew the truth, which is that the camera clock was 10-12 minutes slow. She had examined the clip that showed the arrival of the Carabinieri. The Carabinieri could hardly have arrived before they spent 5 minutes on the phone trying to get directions, which is what the time stamp on the camera clock would suggest.

Once the correct adjustment is made, the Postal Police are shown to have arrived when Raffaele said they did, just a few minutes after he ended his second call to the emergency number.

Was something mentioned about a journalist pointing this out and accusing RS of call the cops after they arrived?

 

[RoseMontague]

Do you understand the difference between the investigation, the preliminary hearing, the trial (which has a dibattimento=an evidentiary phase).

The defence experts were granted access during the investigation.

The judge declared the defence requests were inadmissible at that stage because they should have been investigation requests, and the defence experts were already working abd could have done them.

Do you understand that if the prosecution has possibly exculpatory information most countries require them to share that with the defense? Does Italy, by law, allow them to hold this information back? Yes or no?

 

[Diocletus]

The legend of "hiding information" is pretext, good only for press and propaganda, for thse who won't accept to lose at any cost and do not intend to play by the rules, while they only plan to play the "legitimacy card" against the "evil system" (this is Diocletus' position).

If the system doesn't provide transparency, disclosure and fairness, then it's going to get hit with legitimacy challenges. That's because it doesn't appear legitimate. Sorry, but that's just the way it is.

There simply is no good reason why the lab information should not be made available to the defendants and why the prosecution should have resisted disclosure, as it did.

 

[RoseMontague]

Luca confirms Guede did not name Amanda or Raffaele in this new letter.

 

[toto]

Luca confirms Guede did not name Amanda or Raffaele in this new letter.

If I believed in their guilt I would be just a tad disconcerted by Guede not attacking them with all guns blazing.

 

[RandyN]

I will always hit there, always repeat this point, because here your lie lies...

The defence DID NOT request raw data until the end of the 2009 trial.

During the investigations they were summoned to meetings with Stefanoni and they did not come.
They were offered to come and request material to the laboratory, and they did not come, with the sole exception of Prof. Vinci who only requested to examine the pillowcase for footprints.

Who was the request to appear at the lab sent to while Stefanoni worked on the evidence on say Nov 5, 6, or 7, 2007? Answer carefully because...Here your lie lies.

 

[RandyN]

Natural justice? Not even Vecchiotti turned out the raw data unrequested: there was a request (and the request is in the records).
When RIS summoned the defence experts, the defence experts came, they attended the work, and they were given the documentation they wanted (just like Vecchiotti and Conti declared - and please, don't forget this - they declared before a judge that they were granted unfettered access to all documentation by Stefanoni, and they praised the police for their total cooperation). This is what Vecchiotti and Conti said: they said they were given all the documentation they requested. Vecchiotti and Conti declared this: this declaration alone should make everybody of you assume that Stefanoni never prevented access to any documentation.
Despite this, you decide to claim the opposite of what Vecchiotti and Conti said.

You go on saying that Stefanoni did something unusual against Knox or Sollecito. The fact is, the prosecution experts, as far as all cases I know about, they simply never, never deposited raw data at the clerk's office. Stefanoni simply did what she always did and there was nothign strange in that, regardless of the fact that you don't like the rules of the game.

Ahhh yea...NO! C and V had a due date in court to submit their report. On that due date they had to enter the court and explain why they could not present the report on the due date and that they needed an extension.

The reason was that Stefanoni failed/refused to turn over the requested files to them. The President confirmed this since he was the recipient of no less than two personal emails from Stefanoni in which she complained/insisted that she never turned over these files to anyone...Hellmann asked her first to comply and second more forcefully suggested she turn over everything C and V requested. It remains unclear as to what she turned over or withheld since C and V decided to not make a point of this deliberate delay on Stefanonis part.

If she turned everything over as you claim then why did the judge need to grant a request for a delay to file the C and V report? Its all about lies and a tumbling house of cards when these lies are what you base you premise or foundation on.

 

[Bill Williams]

Do you understand the difference between the investigation, the preliminary hearing, the trial (which has a dibattimento=an evidentiary phase).

The defence experts were granted access during the investigation.

The judge declared the defence requests were inadmissible at that stage because they should have been investigation requests, and the defence experts were already working abd could have done them.

If what you say is true then you're describing the very mechanics of a wrongful conviction. The notion of a judge denying this kind of a defence request for the reason you give is the definition of stupidity, and the destruction of natural justice. Your opinion obviously varies.

 

[Dan O.]

We close Novemver 1st 2007 in Perugia with a Good Night SMS sent to Raffaele by his father. Dad would normally call at this time but from his last call he would have picked up that Raff would have the night alone with Amanda and thoughtfully avoided the call that might have interrupted something. This text however would not be received until 6am because Raff's phone is either turned off or in a location where it does not receive a cell connection.

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

Natural justice? Not even Vecchiotti turned out the raw data unrequested: there was a request (and the request is in the records).
When RIS summoned the defence experts, the defence experts came, they attended the work, and they were given the documentation they wanted (just like Vecchiotti and Conti declared - and please, don't forget this - they declared before a judge that they were granted unfettered access to all documentation by Stefanoni, and they praised the police for their total cooperation). This is what Vecchiotti and Conti said: they said they were given all the documentation they requested.

I would like to see proof that they ever made this statement.

I have shown you a written request for the raw data that C&V submitted to Stefanoni through Hellmann. I have also shown you Stefanoni's response, in which she declines the request. That was April 2011.

Vecchiotti testified on June 30, 2011 that she did not have certain negative controls, and court was recessed for an unsuccessful file search to find them. Leila posted a translation of the relevant transcript on IIP.

Then, when the hearings resumed in September, Comodi submitted some photocopies of what she said were the negative controls for 36B, but the numbers did not appear to be from the same test series. Leila translated that transcript and posted it on IIP as well.

These controls would be included in the raw data, so the transcripts suggest C&V did not have the raw data as of September 2011.

And now the new court has declined a defense request for the raw data. That means the defense still does not have it.

Your claim therefore does not line up with the facts as known to those of us who follow the case closely. You need to prove it if you expect anyone outside of your cult to take it seriously.

 

[smkovalinksy]

We close Novemver 1st 2007 in Perugia with a Good Night SMS sent to Raffaele by his father. Dad would normally call at this time but from his last call he would have picked up that Raff would have the night alone with Amanda and thoughtfully avoided the call that might have interrupted something. This text however would not be received until 6am because Raff's phone is either turned off or in a location where it does not receive a cell connection.

I have really enjoyed this running real-time commentary. Something soothing about it....

 

[katy_did]

Massei, Hellmann and Nencini refused to even accept the last update of their report, by now.

Are you sure Nencini didn't accept the defence computer report, Mach? I thought there was a quote from Bongiorno after the last hearing saying she was satisfied because the court had accepted that report into the case file.

 

[katy_did]

Katy_did: The report is only 89 pages. Would you please translate it by lunchtime. Thank you,
Strozzi

Why sure, at a mere 89 pages I should be able to get it done over my lunch break (OK, so technically that's not quite "by lunchtime", but close enough).

 

[yimyammer]

When you,ve seen enough Google translations you learn how to read it. One of the biggest sources of confusion is that Google can't keep the gender straight. You need to ignore the He/She distinctions.

LOL...I doubt it.

You have to be able to translate Google translate first. All the he's mean her and all the hers mean him. Got that? And Doctor Comfortable is actually Commodi who is not a doctor but rather Migninis assistant in the prosecution...although Comode gets awful close to a literal description of where her and Migninis work belongs.

Let me translate please. You can put lip stick on a pig but it is still a pig.

The only facts about the cctv time is that the clock was 12 minutes slow and not 10 minutes fast as the prosecution attempted to lie about by creating smoke and mirror tricks with DST which was meaningless and designed to attempt to introduce more confusion. This translation points out that the defense called the guy out for introducing pointless BS and the only fact remains that the clock was 12 minutes slow.

You're not an idiot. The translation is bad, and the witness is being evasive.

I understand it because I know the whole story. Police claimed they arrived 20 minutes before Raffaele called the emergency number. To make that claim fit with what is shown on the garage camera, they had to say the clock on the camera was 10 minutes fast.

In this exchange, she corners a police witness on the stand with a simple question: how did you determine the clock on the garage camera was 10 minutes fast? He makes up some garbage about looking it up on the Internet before finally admitting it was because someone told him, but he can't remember the name of that person.

She of course knew the truth, which is that the camera clock was 10-12 minutes slow. She had examined the clip that showed the arrival of the Carabinieri. The Carabinieri could hardly have arrived before they spent 5 minutes on the phone trying to get directions, which is what the time stamp on the camera clock would suggest.

Once the correct adjustment is made, the Postal Police are shown to have arrived when Raffaele said they did, just a few minutes after he ended his second call to the emergency number.

damn this case!

Thx all

 

[Bill Williams]

Huffington Post is reporting that Sky News is reporting that there is now no trace of Meredith Kercher on the Kitchen knife. Apparently, that knife never left Raffaele's until miraculously collected on super instinct by the PLE.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/11/01/amanda-knox-trial-knife_n_4194173.html

So.... now they're going to have to acquit and deal with a PLE which hung their futures on that knife. Either that or Italy will ignore this miscarriage of justice and let people life Napoleoni go down over lesser run-ins with the law.

Machiavelli: is Andrea reporting on this news?