Continuation Part Six: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[Diocletus]

The majority of judges are lawyers, which in Italy is Avvocato, something that requires a post degree training of three years and a state exam.

So, Italian lawyers don't go to law school, eh?

Then, they became magistrates, which requires a further five years study (which you need to enter, and it's extremely difficult) and another exam to conclude the specialization school for legal professions. After that, you need to pass a further very hard exam, we say "win a competition", after which you become a magistrate (less than 200-300 every year make it).

Is this some kind of special ed? Because as best I can tell, the supreme court seems to be a bunch of half-wits.

 

[RoseMontague]

OK. I think I understand the whole “Dr.” thing now.

1. Stefanoni does not have a PhD. We know this because Machiavelli has refused to admit or deny after being asked about this several times.

2. Machiavelli thinks, though, that Stefanoni has done so much research that she has a de facto Ph.D. The fact that she doesn’t have one is just like forgetting to put the dot on the “i”. Either that, or she’s a lazy, underqualified charlatan. You decide.

3. In Italy, unlike the rest of the world, everyone who graduates from college gets to call themselves a “Dr.” So, everyone runs around calling themselves and each other “Dr.,” which is kind of embarrassing. So, being a “Dr.” in Italy is like being the tallest midget in the circus.

4. The reason the Italians do this “Dr.” thing is because it seemed like a good idea 1,000 years ago, when there were like three universities in the world, and guys would study to get bachelors’ degrees in alchemy, witch-burning, and siege warfare.

5. Italians are so mesmerized by this “Dr.” thing that they have actually passed a law decreeing that they can be called “Dr.” in Italy, even though they’re not a “Dr.” anywhere else in the world. On the other hand, they don’t have a law requiring the government to turn over investigative material to criminal defendants.

6. The fairest ways to refer to an Italian “Dr.” is “BS” or “Dottore di Bologna” which, roughly translates to “doctor of baloney”.

Too funny.

 

[LondonJohn]

A certain pro-guilt commentator thinks he has sorted out the issue around Stefanoni's qualifications. He has not.

Here's the truth:

It's true that in 2001/2002, the Italian university qualifications system changed. In essence, it changed the old-style "diploma" degree into " 3-year laurea" ("L3"). This qualification is now equivalent to an undergraduate degree (BA, BSc, BEng).

The old-style laurea degree was, at the same time, reclassified as "laurea specialistica" ("LS").

And beyond that, nothing really changed. Before and after the reforms, anything above the laurea degree was termed "post-laurea" (equivalent to "post-graduate"), and consists of specialist dottorato di ricerca (doctor of research) qualifications and the like.

Here's a comprehensive description of the pre- and post-2001/02 situation:

http://www.euroeducation.net/prof/italco.htm


So, here's the truth: Stefanoni gained an old-style laurea qualification. This was equivalent to an enhanced post-2001/02 laurea specificata degree. But Stefanoni NEVER gained anything related to post-laurea qualifications. She cannot, therefore, be considered the equivalent of a PhD. End of story.

Oh and by the way, another interesting fact: it appears that the L3 degree (i.e. the modern equivalent of an undergraduate first degree) is awarded to students who have obtained 180 credits:

The Laurea-L (first degree) is awarded to undergraduates who have obtained 180 credits

And I seem to remember reading somewhere recently that Stefanoni graduated with 180 credits. If that's correct, then Stefanoni would indeed simply hold the equivalent of an undergraduate first degree (it appears that 300 credits in total are required for a laurea magistrale). But anyhow, even under the most optimistic assessment, the most that Stefanoni holds is the rough equivalent of a masters degree. She categorically does not hold the equivalent of a PhD. And, as such, she categorically is not entitled to style herself "Doctor" outside of Italy.

 

[LondonJohn]

Here's another informative page on the old-style Italian degrees:

http://www.study-in-italy.it/study/old-degrees.html

Here's what it has to say on the old-style laurea degree (my highlighting):

(Diploma di) Laurea (DL)

Classification: 2nd level university degree, strongly academic in nature.

Aim: provide students with adequate knowledge of cultural and scientific fields at an advanced degree of theoretical complexity; besides, supply them with research methods so that they may subsequently take up significant professional responsibilities, up to the highest managerial positions.

Access: by the Italian school leaving qualification (or a foreign comparable one) or by a related 1st degree (Diploma SDAFS or DU); in the second case applicants may obtain a reduction in the length of the chosen Laurea course (CL) amounting to max. 1 year (SDAFS) or 2 years (DU).

Admission: at all universities in such fields as architecture, dentistry, human medicine, veterinary medicine by selective procedures due to numerus clausus limitations; in other fields entrance tests may be autonomously introduced by individual institutions depending on places availability.

Length: 4-6 years full time, depending on individual faculties and subject areas; given the curricular complexity and the compulsory research work to be carried out, most students usually take to 2 years longer to comply with all the legal requirements needed for the awarding of the degree.

Subject sectors: a great variety; within the general 5 main areas (Course structure: a core curriculum of indispensable subjects (corsi fondamentali) in a number of disciplinary sectors detetmined by national law is complemented by some complementary subjects, decided autonomuosly by individual institutions; the teaching/learning approach is characterised by in-depth study of theory in all subjects fields; training to research is included, the defence of a dissertation being a compulsory requirement for the awarding of the degree.

Degree: (Diploma di) Laurea (di Dottore) in ….(the subject field follows). The DL is normally an academic, non-professional qualification.

Title: Dottore/Dottoressa, to be shortened to Dott./Dott.ssa. This is a 2nd level academic title not to be misunderstood with the Italian "Dottore di Ricerca" or with such titles as Philosophy Doctor, Docteur, Doctor, Doktor, Doutor, etc. which correspond to 3rd cycle doctorates, and are usually shortened to PhD or Dr.

Note also that post-graduate (i.e. post-laureate) qualifications clearly existed under the old system. Note also that Stefanoni does not possess any such post-graduate qualifications. Note therefore that she does not hold the equivalent of a PhD. Note therefore that she should not properly call herself "doctor" outside of Italy.

 

[Supernaut]

OK. I think I understand the whole “Dr.” thing now.

1. Stefanoni does not have a PhD. We know this because Machiavelli has refused to admit or deny after being asked about this several times.

2. Machiavelli thinks, though, that Stefanoni has done so much research that she has a de facto Ph.D. The fact that she doesn’t have one is just like forgetting to put the dot on the “i”. Either that, or she’s a lazy, underqualified charlatan. You decide.

3. In Italy, unlike the rest of the world, everyone who graduates from college gets to call themselves a “Dr.” So, everyone runs around calling themselves and each other “Dr.,” which is kind of embarrassing. So, being a “Dr.” in Italy is like being the tallest midget in the circus.

4. The reason the Italians do this “Dr.” thing is because it seemed like a good idea 1,000 years ago, when there were like three universities in the world, and guys would study to get bachelors’ degrees in alchemy, witch-burning, and siege warfare.

5. Italians are so mesmerized by this “Dr.” thing that they have actually passed a law decreeing that they can be called “Dr.” in Italy, even though they’re not a “Dr.” anywhere else in the world. On the other hand, they don’t have a law requiring the government to turn over investigative material to criminal defendants.

6. The fairest ways to refer to an Italian “Dr.” is “BS” or “Dottore di Bologna” which, roughly translates to “doctor of baloney”.

Valentino Rossi - "the Doctor";

 

[Bill Williams]

Also, as others have pointed out, the discussion of not-a-real-doctor Stefanoni's qualifications is somewhat peripheral to the main issue anyhow (although it's rather amusing).

The main issue is that it's provably true that Stefanoni made multiple egregious errors at every single stage of the forensics process in the Kercher case. Her crime scene work was utterly inept and riddled with malpractice, and her lab work was - if anything - far worse still than that.

Plenty of other people with very impressive academic qualifications have made similar shocking errors in their work before, and they will do so again. So, in a very real sense, it doesn't matter whether Stefanoni had only a high-school education or whether she was an Emeritus Professor of Genetics at Bologna, with a visiting Fellowship at Harvard Medical School. She messed up atrociously on this case. End of story.

This is the nub of the issue.

The only remaining question is - was Stefanoni coerced to find something?

Like the desperately unemployed accountant going for a job interview with a Mafia boss. The Mafia boss, testing the man's credentials, says: "What's 2 + 2?"

The accountant gets the job by replying: "What do you need it to be?"

ETA: Can we get back to discussing *****ic R*t*s?

 

[Dan O.]

http://www.4icu.org/reviews/2403.htm

ETA: I see Dan O located the same source document at the very same time as I did!

You could have found it earlier if you looked in my wiki. It's been there since I created the Patrizia Stefanoni page at 17:26, 27 March 2010.

 

[Bill Williams]

<snip>The point is: it is absolutely not true that the only thing the prosecution has, about Knox's lies, is the false report she gave during a questioning.

Unfortunately this is a key logical mistake, and if you make this wrong assumption from the beginning you deny facts, you make a basically false assumption so it becomes impossible to go forward in a reasoning.<snip>

The key logical mistake and the basically false assumption that you and Mignini have made is that you believe you can understand the intent and the meaning of Amanda Knox's words, when she is from a culture utterly different from yours, one that you are not familiar with, and one against which you have strong prejudices and objections. The same goes for Amanda's gender.

Your mistakes and assumptions are based on conceit born of ignorance. The real crime, though, is that when Amanda's fellow American citizens explain the meaning of her actions to you, you refuse to believe them.

You know how it feels when you try to explain to us the precise meanings of words we have drawn mistaken conclusions about. Can you recognize we have the same problem? We don't have the authority to tell you what riti means, and you don't have the authority to tell us what Amanda meant.

This is true.

But there are a few things we can tell Machiavelli about the meaning in his own language. Remember way, way up thread Machiavelli tried to finesse the meaning of the word "riti" to include "game"?

Your analysis is spot on, Mary_H - the trouble is that the one you're explaining this to is not arguing in good faith. He's already admitted to having the method of argumentation as-if arguing to counter propaganda.

It's why he can say Amanda can choose not to sleep (to set up her being so targettedly-manipulative at interrogation). He's said that Amanda and her mother can talk in Mafia code (to explain why "I was there" means she was admitting to the crime). He can argue that Rudy was probably Amanda's pimp (to suggest a prior relationship between the two).

And on and on. He just just not argue with the truth in mind and will twist just about anything - including avoiding the question of Stefanoni's qualifications as to what "Dr." means.

 

[Dan O.]

It's 3pm Perugia time on November 1st and the sleeper has awoken. Meredith dashes off several text messages from the cottage. At 3:48 she will text her English friends that she will be late.

 

[Grinder]

Even if there was DNA from Meredith found on a knife in Raffyell's kitchen. This evidence would only have been found after Mignini decided that Amanda & Raffele were the perpetrators.
The question then is how would they know to look for evidence in Raffale's kitchen?
The prosecution of AR+RS had to have started when the psychic told Mignini what he saw in his vision. The other stuff that was used as evidence was used to help convince the jury what Mignini's knowledge from the psychic is true.
Rudy took the real murder weapon away, and then did something that would prevent it from being found intact.
Perhaps the guilters believe that a Psychic helped Mignini solve the case, but they can't say that to the skeptics, because the skeptics will say they are crazy.

I believe I asked before and admit I haven't been perusing all the comments but do you have a source for the consulting with the psychic?

You can send it by PM if you have already posted it.

Once again sorry if I missed it.

Btw, I think Mignini's alleged psychic was a female.

 

[Dan O.]

Amanda and Raffaele are in the kitchen when Meredith ventures out of her bedroom to start a load of laundry in the washing machine. She'll need to remember to move these cloths to the drying rack in the hall when she gets home that evening or they could start to mildue if left in the damp washer all night.

 

[Strozzi]

If we are in the same date and it is Nov. 1 in Italy, then this is the perfect night on which Rudy should be interviewed. It is the Night of the Dead in Italy.

 

[Dan O.]

It is November 1 in Italy. http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/city.html?n=157

It is now 3:50 PM.


In Milan it is partly sunny. A cool 16 ºC. Much like this day 6 years ago.

 

[Diocletus]

Amanda and Raffaele are in the kitchen when Meredith ventures out of her bedroom to start a load of laundry in the washing machine. She'll need to remember to move these cloths to the drying rack in the hall when she gets home that evening or they could start to mildue if left in the damp washer all night.

This is cool.

 

[Myriad]

People do not call "themselves": they are called so by statute.
The term "doctor" was adopted in year 1088 a.C., officialized in 1317, at the University of Bologna, to indicate a laureate.
...
But the use for "Dr" as a laureate in Bologna is the original one. The Italian universities have been keeping this traditional naming for centuries without interruption.

Ah, this makes sense, because we've seen how the Italian system of criminal investigation and criminal justice has likewise held to the same time-honored traditions and methods it used 925 years ago.

 

[Dan O.]

Meredith had left the house in a hurry earlier. Sometime around 4 to 5 PM Amanda and Raffaele will leave to return to his place for the evening. Sunset tonight is at 5:10 PM.

 

[Dan O.]

This is cool.

You think Rudy will speak up in time to add his narative to the real time +6y playback?

 

[Dan O.]

At 16:56, Raffaele receives a call from his father. Why is it that we don't have a cell location for this call? Amanda and Raffaele are probably back at his place by now.

This afternoon, the download of the multimedia file Stardust had finished. He had already downloaded Amanda's favorite "Amilie" two days earlier so when Amanda brings it up in their conversation on the walk home Raffaele says they can watch it that evening.

 

[LondonJohn]

Do you think that any of the pro-guilt commentators understand that warm soapy water and mild agitation will wash away DNA with no problem at all?

 

[Dan O.]

At this time in Perugia 6 years ago, Jovana Popovic stops by and asks Raffaele to drive her to the train station. Amanda is using Raffaele's computer to access her email.