Continuation Part Six: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[acbytesla]

The key logical mistake and the basically false assumption that you and Mignini have made is that you believe you can understand the intent and the meaning of Amanda Knox's words, when she is from a culture utterly different from yours, one that you are not familiar with, and one against which you have strong prejudices and objections. The same goes for Amanda's gender.

Your mistakes and assumptions are based on conceit born of ignorance. The real crime, though, is that when Amanda's fellow American citizens explain the meaning of her actions to you, you refuse to believe them.

You know how it feels when you try to explain to us the precise meanings of words we have drawn mistaken conclusions about. Can you recognize we have the same problem? We don't have the authority to tell you what riti means, and you don't have the authority to tell us what Amanda meant.



I can see why you feel this way. Massei, for example, is full of occurrences of "this could be true." By your logic, then, whenever Massei wrote, "This could be true," essentially he was saying, "I told you this because I thought you would believe it -- suckahs!"

However, Amanda was not thinking like that. She was not trying to get away with anything or mislead anyone, because she had no idea she was going to be held as a suspect or a convict for the next four years. She thought everything was going to turn out all right. The reason she thought it could be true was that the police had persuaded her it could be true, and she believed them.

You forget that Amanda spent the first half of the interrogation not knowing what the police were talking about in terms of Patrick. If she thought she could get the police to believe Patrick was guilty, why wouldn't she just say that right off the bat, and save herself some time and some whacks to the head?

What are the others?

I couldn't agree more Mary.

What's real clear to me that so much of this case is base upon misunderstandings. It's not that easy to translate one language and cultures into another. There are idioms that when translated are meaningless or mean something entirely different. Amanda's "see you later" to her boss is just one example of that. Also, there is a real difficulty with differences in syntax. There is NO WAY IN HELL, Amanda wrote the statements she signed. Even a poor English writer would have worded things differently. And Amanda is skilled and well educated.

No, that was written by someone that had English as a second or a third language.

But Machiavelli will never see this. He sees Amanda the way he sees Amanda. He sees her through his friend Mignini's eyes. It's a classic case of the blind leading the blind.

 

[Antony]

The truth:
1) ...
...
6) She told a load of crap of different kinds outside any interrogation, before her interrogation and after, unrelated to any question and unrelated to any pressure, just purely manipulative and deceptive, as I mentioned.

Give it up, Machiavelli. People reading this are familiar with Amanda's statements and know very well that she always told a consistent story, before and after the interrogation. It was only while she was being manipulated and threatened by police that she said anything different.

There are many lies being told about this case, but they do not come from Amanda and Raffaele.

 

[snook1]

Even I can understand the conclusions of the report with very limited Italian and these conclusions are:

- no DNA of Meredith Kercher - escludere l'ipotesi che materiale genetico di Meredith Susanna Cara Kercher sia presente nella traccia I;

- no DNA of Rudy Guede - escludere l'ipotesi che materiale genetico di Rudy Hermann Guede sia presente nella traccia I;

- no DNA of Raffaele Sollecito - escludere l'ipotesi che materiale genetico di Raffaele Sollecito sia presente nella traccia I;

- confirmed DNA of Amanda Knox - supportare in maniera estramamente significativa l'ipotesi che materiale genetico di Amanda Marie Knox.

Period.

 

[Dan O.]

A ways up thread, Machiavelli quoted from Barbadori's testimony to support his claim that the camera at the head of Raffaele's street was for traffic control. I had unsuccessfully searched for this testimony before but Machiavelli's quote gave me renewed interest. Searching for phrases from the English translation gave nothing. But then I searched for just the name and there it was at the top of just a handfull of results. It wasn't until much late that I noticed the spelling of that name was different from what everybody else had been using.

Anyhow, what I am posting about has to do with how certain guilters continue to post that Raffaele called the police after the postals had arrived. In researching this, I found on one of the PMF sites where someone claimed that the courts only heard testimony from Barbadori that the CCTV clock was fast, claiming that the defense's explanation of the clock being slow was not testimony and therefore the court did not hear it. This is a bogus argument because the defense simply presented the factual hard evidence which even an Italian with "Dr" after their name could put together.

In reading the testimony, I was particularly interested in how Barbadori figured the correction for the CCTV time. And the defense was interested in this too. Throuout their cross they would bring up the question of the time correction and Barbadori would babble something about checking the time on the Internet and Daylight Savings Time but kept avoiding answering the question. Finally, we find the truth with this exchange:

QUESTION - On what grounds she claims that the time indicated by the cameras of the car park is not accurate and fits ten minutes ahead*?
ANSWER - I checked out , I went on the internet and looked at the time legal.
QUESTION - I explain this finding , " looked at "*?
ANSWER - I looked at the summer time , I also saw through the scanned images , which were given to me by the technicians of SIPA , there were ten minutes ...
QUESTION - How do you make sure they have ten minutes? without suggest*!
PRESIDENT - I'm sorry , asks the defendant, she said: " 20:51 , but in reality were 20:41 ," this " actually" from what came out?
ANSWER - An analysis of the cameras, I saw that it corresponded in substance.
DEFENSE - AVV . BONGIORNO - She said: " I ​​went on Internet and saw daylight saving time . "
ANSWER - Yes
QUESTION - Daylight saving time is first and foremost an hour which means that if 12 becomes 11 is a time , daylight saving time is not ten minutes.
ANSWER - No daylight saving time, the actual time in substance.
PRESIDENT - So now the real?
ANSWER - Yes , the real time.
PRESIDENT - This real- time as he pulled out*? this diversity of ten minutes? What kind of assessment*? This calls for the Defense.
ANSWER - I honestly do not remember which was the figure .
DEFENSE - AVV . BONGIORNO - In its disclosure if it is to I submit it to him , she does not explain how .
PRESIDENT - It is authorized to consult .
ANSWER - No, there is the annotation.
DEFENSE - AVV . BONGIORNO - There is a record in a manner in which lapidary she concludes*: "It is necessary to consider that the time the equipment is moved than ten minutes about ahead of daylight saving time . " What do you want mean?
ANSWER - No, daylight saving time is in fact a mistake.
QUESTION - So it is legal to read real?
ANSWER - Yes , yes.
APPLICATION - We establish , however, that there is a statement according to the which you are rebuilding schedules and stuff like that we must now analyze in detail , then establish because these ten minutes, as he did to count these ten minutes are so important .
ANSWER - I do not remember how I became aware of this difference in ten minutes. From memory I do not remember .
QUESTION - How do we do this to rebuild his assessment*?
PROSECUTOR - DR.SSA COMFORTABLE - He did not do him the finding.
DEFENSE - AVV . BONGIORNO - So who did this finding ten minutes?
ANSWER - It was probably done by the coach of SIPA , that is, the technician from whom I acquired the images of parking lot that is the one who told me this figure .
PRESIDENT - He knows the name of this technical SIPA*?
ANSWER - No, I could track down , definitely yes.
PRESIDENT - I could track down but at the moment he does not know the name?
ANSWER - Yes​

So there it is. The prosecutions claim that the CCTV clock was fast is only hearsay. The courts have only the evidence that shows that the clock was in fact 12 minutes slow.


What we also see from that exchange is that Barbadori is willing to stretch the truth beyond reality to support the prosecution. The prosecutor has to step in and provide the truth to keep him from digging his lie deeper when it was obvious that the defense had the truth.

 

[toto]

Over at PMF.net:

Nell:

From what I understand, the report says the sample "I" has Knox's DNA and Guede, Sollecito and the victim can be excluded as contributers of the sample.

Michael:

As a final note, if Nell's reading of the report is correct and Guede's profile, even if only partial, has been found in a sample from that knife...that's Knox and Sollecito's coffins nailed shut!!!​

Michael needs to read more carefully!

I should, in fairness, add that Michael has seen his mistake. In response to Nell:

:The misunderstanding was mine Thanks for clarifying and apologies if I confused anyone.

Okay, that keeps things nice and simple. Had Guede's profile been found, it would have been goodnight Vienna for Knox and Sollecito, but I'm actually glad it wasn't. That's because explaining it would have been a problem and would have meant that I'd have had to back to the drawing board...since I'm convinced, after carefully piecing everything together, that Guede didn't use any of the knives and had no part in the stabbing...and indeed wasn't even present when the fatal blow was landed in fact. These things I'm almost certain of. Had his DNA neen (sic)on that knife, then I would have had to reassess.
​

Not sure he is that happy really.

 

[RoseMontague]

A ways up thread, Machiavelli quoted from Barbadori's testimony to support his claim that the camera at the head of Raffaele's street was for traffic control. I had unsuccessfully searched for this testimony before but Machiavelli's quote gave me renewed interest. Searching for phrases from the English translation gave nothing. But then I searched for just the name and there it was at the top of just a handfull of results. It wasn't until much late that I noticed the spelling of that name was different from what everybody else had been using.

Anyhow, what I am posting about has to do with how certain guilters continue to post that Raffaele called the police after the postals had arrived. In researching this, I found on one of the PMF sites where someone claimed that the courts only heard testimony from Barbadori that the CCTV clock was fast, claiming that the defense's explanation of the clock being slow was not testimony and therefore the court did not hear it. This is a bogus argument because the defense simply presented the factual hard evidence which even an Italian with "Dr" after their name could put together.

In reading the testimony, I was particularly interested in how Barbadori figured the correction for the CCTV time. And the defense was interested in this too. Throuout their cross they would bring up the question of the time correction and Barbadori would babble something about checking the time on the Internet and Daylight Savings Time but kept avoiding answering the question. Finally, we find the truth with this exchange:

QUESTION - On what grounds she claims that the time indicated by the cameras of the car park is not accurate and fits ten minutes ahead*?
ANSWER - I checked out , I went on the internet and looked at the time legal.
QUESTION - I explain this finding , " looked at "*?
ANSWER - I looked at the summer time , I also saw through the scanned images , which were given to me by the technicians of SIPA , there were ten minutes ...
QUESTION - How do you make sure they have ten minutes? without suggest*!
PRESIDENT - I'm sorry , asks the defendant, she said: " 20:51 , but in reality were 20:41 ," this " actually" from what came out?
ANSWER - An analysis of the cameras, I saw that it corresponded in substance.
DEFENSE - AVV . BONGIORNO - She said: " I ​​went on Internet and saw daylight saving time . "
ANSWER - Yes
QUESTION - Daylight saving time is first and foremost an hour which means that if 12 becomes 11 is a time , daylight saving time is not ten minutes.
ANSWER - No daylight saving time, the actual time in substance.
PRESIDENT - So now the real?
ANSWER - Yes , the real time.
PRESIDENT - This real- time as he pulled out*? this diversity of ten minutes? What kind of assessment*? This calls for the Defense.
ANSWER - I honestly do not remember which was the figure .
DEFENSE - AVV . BONGIORNO - In its disclosure if it is to I submit it to him , she does not explain how .
PRESIDENT - It is authorized to consult .
ANSWER - No, there is the annotation.
DEFENSE - AVV . BONGIORNO - There is a record in a manner in which lapidary she concludes*: "It is necessary to consider that the time the equipment is moved than ten minutes about ahead of daylight saving time . " What do you want mean?
ANSWER - No, daylight saving time is in fact a mistake.
QUESTION - So it is legal to read real?
ANSWER - Yes , yes.
APPLICATION - We establish , however, that there is a statement according to the which you are rebuilding schedules and stuff like that we must now analyze in detail , then establish because these ten minutes, as he did to count these ten minutes are so important .
ANSWER - I do not remember how I became aware of this difference in ten minutes. From memory I do not remember .
QUESTION - How do we do this to rebuild his assessment*?
PROSECUTOR - DR.SSA COMFORTABLE - He did not do him the finding.
DEFENSE - AVV . BONGIORNO - So who did this finding ten minutes?
ANSWER - It was probably done by the coach of SIPA , that is, the technician from whom I acquired the images of parking lot that is the one who told me this figure .
PRESIDENT - He knows the name of this technical SIPA*?
ANSWER - No, I could track down , definitely yes.
PRESIDENT - I could track down but at the moment he does not know the name?
ANSWER - Yes​

So there it is. The prosecutions claim that the CCTV clock was fast is only hearsay. The courts have only the evidence that shows that the clock was in fact 12 minutes slow.


What we also see from that exchange is that Barbadori is willing to stretch the truth beyond reality to support the prosecution. The prosecutor has to step in and provide the truth to keep him from digging his lie deeper when it was obvious that the defense had the truth.

LOL. Celebrity Jeopardy. Thanks for this.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

Comodi interview

Several continuation threads ago, I seem to recall an interview with Comodi where even she acknowledged that Ms. Stefanoni did not have higher degrees.

 

[RoseMontague]

Several continuation threads ago, I seem to recall an interview with Comodi where even she acknowledged that Ms. Stefanoni did not have higher degrees.

Yes, something along the lines of you can argue about her qualifications but not about her procedures.

 

[Dan O.]

Several continuation threads ago, I seem to recall an interview with Comodi where even she acknowledged that Ms. Stefanoni did not have higher degrees.

Has Republica (October 5, 2008) ever corrected their bio?

Patrizia Stefanoni, 40 years, BA in Biological Sciences and former researcher in genetics since 2000 and now in police biologist and technical director of the Section of Forensic Genetics-Scientific Rome
​

 

[LondonJohn]

Several continuation threads ago, I seem to recall an interview with Comodi where even she acknowledged that Ms. Stefanoni did not have higher degrees.

I seem to remember it was quite recently that this cropped up. In my opinion, Machiavelli is dissembling and obfuscating in a ludicrous manner on this issue.

I believe it's a confirmed fact that Stefanoni's academic qualifications extend only to an undergraduate degree, and that therefore she has attained no post-graduate qualifications. Incidentally, Wikipedia has this to say on Italian academic qualifications and their respective honorifics (my highlighting):

University degrees:

Dottore – dott. (all people holding a laurea degree). The laurea was previously the only academic degree given by Italian Universities. With the Riforma Universitaria, the Italian system has moved closer to conformity with the rest of Europe and North America. Laurea may now refer to a three-year degree (the laurea triennale) or to a laurea magistrale, which requires two additional years of study. The former confers the title dottore; holders of the latter receive the academic title dottore magistrale. Outside of Italy, however, it is inappropriate for the holder of a new laurea to use the title "Doctor."
Avvocato – avv. (Lawyer, a laurea specialistica in law and a state-exam are both required.)

Ingegnere – ing. (Engineer, a laurea specialistica in engineering and a state-exam are both required.)

Architetto – arch. (Architect, a laurea specialistica in architecture and a state-exam are both required.)

Dottore di Ricerca (holder of a Ph.D., literally "Doctor of Research").

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_honorifics


So if Stefanoni really did have a PhD, she would be entitled to give herself the honorific "Dottoressa di Ricerca" - especially as she works in the very field in which she undertook academic studies. She does not give herself that honorific. Neither does she give herself the honorific "Dottoressa magistrale", which would imply the equivalent of a masters degree.

I find the last sentence of the "dottore" section of the article to be interesting: "Outside of Italy, however, it is inappropriate for the holder of a new laurea to use the title "Doctor.""

 

[LondonJohn]

Has Republica (October 5, 2008) ever corrected their bio?

Patrizia Stefanoni, 40 years, BA in Biological Sciences and former researcher in genetics since 2000 and now in police biologist and technical director of the Section of Forensic Genetics-Scientific Rome
​

Yep - strange that they translate her undergraduate degree into the anglo-saxon form (although they get it wrong - it would be a BSc rather than a BA), yet fail to list any post-graduate qualifications.

Perhaps it's because Stefanoni doesn't have any post-graduate qualifications. Just a thought......

 

[LondonJohn]

Also, as others have pointed out, the discussion of not-a-real-doctor Stefanoni's qualifications is somewhat peripheral to the main issue anyhow (although it's rather amusing).

The main issue is that it's provably true that Stefanoni made multiple egregious errors at every single stage of the forensics process in the Kercher case. Her crime scene work was utterly inept and riddled with malpractice, and her lab work was - if anything - far worse still than that.

Plenty of other people with very impressive academic qualifications have made similar shocking errors in their work before, and they will do so again. So, in a very real sense, it doesn't matter whether Stefanoni had only a high-school education or whether she was an Emeritus Professor of Genetics at Bologna, with a visiting Fellowship at Harvard Medical School. She messed up atrociously on this case. End of story.

 

[Dan O.]

Yep - strange that they translate her undergraduate degree into the anglo-saxon form (although they get it wrong - it would be a BSc rather than a BA), yet fail to list any post-graduate qualifications.

Perhaps it's because Stefanoni doesn't have any post-graduate qualifications. Just a thought......

I think it's fitting the Stef has a BS in BS. in Itally that makes her a doctor of BS.


She never mentions any higher degree herself:
http://www.news.unina.it/doc/furia.pdf

- When did you graduate and what your current role?
- I graduated in Biology at the Faculty of Science ' University of Naples Federico II in 1995. Currently functioning nario Technical State Police.

- Can you describe briefly what is your job?
- My qualifications in police and Technical Director, Principal Biologist and are attached to the Section of Forensic Genetics. In practice, I employ - some of the technical investigations carried out on traces of genetic bio - logics of various kinds, repertoire at the crime scene. End to which tends in a trace organic repertoire is to be able to determine the genetic profile of the person owning the track, through the analysis of genetic polymorphisms known as STR (short tandem repeats). My job is to 'interpretation genetic data, that in reading the genetic profiles and in-stesu ra the resulting technical report to be sent to the Authority Court that 'he needed.​

 

[Dan O.]

If my time is correct, it's about noon on November 1 in Perugia right now. 6 years ago at this moment Meredith is still in bed sleeping off her late night of Halloween partying. Amanda has returned to the cottage for her usual morning shower and to get dressed for the new day. Raffaele will be joining her shortly and Filomena will stop by with her boyfriend getting ready to go to another friends birthday party.

 

[LondonJohn]

Well, well, well. From the horse's mouth, so to speak:

(Question to Stefanoni) Quando ti sei laureata e qual'è il tuo ruolo attuale?

(Answer by Stefanoni) Mi sono laureata in Biologia, presso la Facoltà di Scienze dell' Università di Napoli Federico II, nel 1995. Attualmente sono funzionario tecnico della Polizia di Stato.

Translation:

(Question to Stefanoni) When did you graduate and what is your current role?

(Answer by Stefanoni) I graduated in Biology from the Faculty of Sciences of the University of Naples Federico II, in 1995. I am currently a technician in the State Police.

http://www.news.unina.it/doc/furia.pdf


I believe this settles the matter. Stefanoni has no more than an undergraduate degree: "laureata".

Incidentally, University of Naples Federico II is ranked at a lofty #607 in the current world ranking of universities

http://www.4icu.org/reviews/2403.htm

ETA: I see Dan O located the same source document at the very same time as I did!

 

[RoseMontague]

She describes herself in her own DNA powerpoint as

Dr.ssa Patrizia Stefanoni
Direttore Tecnico Principale Biologo
della Polizia di Stato

 

[billyryan]

Is it tonight that Rudy is interviewed on Italian tv,on the sixth anniversary of his brutal ending of Meredith Kercher's life,which led to another set of thugs doing such irreversible damage to two innocent defendants and their families,I won't comment on whether or not he should be interviewed but I think tonight is not the night it should happen

 

[Chris_Halkides]

just hearsay about the clock

So there it is. The prosecutions claim that the CCTV clock was fast is only hearsay. The courts have only the evidence that shows that the clock was in fact 12 minutes slow.


What we also see from that exchange is that Barbadori is willing to stretch the truth beyond reality to support the prosecution. The prosecutor has to step in and provide the truth to keep him from digging his lie deeper when it was obvious that the defense had the truth.

Dan O.,

At another discussion board a poster claimed that the police used an atomic clock to verify the correct time. Amazing.

 

[Antony]

Is it tonight that Rudy is interviewed on Italian tv,on the sixth anniversary of his brutal ending of Meredith Kercher's life,which led to another set of thugs doing such irreversible damage to two innocent defendants and their families,I won't comment on whether or not he should be interviewed but I think tonight is not the night it should happen

He ought to be "interviewed" under oath at the current appeal trial in Florence, under cross-examination by the defence lawyers. Let him be forced to give an account of the events at the cottage that makes sense.

 

[Diocletus]

OK. I think I understand the whole “Dr.” thing now.

1. Stefanoni does not have a PhD. We know this because Machiavelli has refused to admit or deny after being asked about this several times.

2. Machiavelli thinks, though, that Stefanoni has done so much research that she has a de facto Ph.D. The fact that she doesn’t have one is just like forgetting to put the dot on the “i”. Either that, or she’s a lazy, underqualified charlatan. You decide.

3. In Italy, unlike the rest of the world, everyone who graduates from college gets to call themselves a “Dr.” So, everyone runs around calling themselves and each other “Dr.,” which is kind of embarrassing. So, being a “Dr.” in Italy is like being the tallest midget in the circus.

4. The reason the Italians do this “Dr.” thing is because it seemed like a good idea 1,000 years ago, when there were like three universities in the world, and guys would study to get bachelors’ degrees in alchemy, witch-burning, and siege warfare.

5. Italians are so mesmerized by this “Dr.” thing that they have actually passed a law decreeing that they can be called “Dr.” in Italy, even though they’re not a “Dr.” anywhere else in the world. On the other hand, they don’t have a law requiring the government to turn over investigative material to criminal defendants.

6. The fairest ways to refer to an Italian “Dr.” is “BS” or “Dottore di Bologna” which, roughly translates to “doctor of baloney”.