An Atheist's View of the Alpha Course

mstricky said:
And I thought we were having a serious debate; silly me
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More a discussion than a debate, but it is serious, just with some humor thrown in.

"Israeli test" was undoubtedly a typo with a mistaken auto-correct. Read it as "Israelites."

In other words, do you believe that Moses led the Israelites out of Egypt?

I will add my own follow-on questions:

Do you believe that the band of Israelites wandered the desert for 40 years?

Do you believe that the band of Israelites attacked and destroyed the city of Jericho?

Thanks
 
I believe Isrealites were crossing from Egypt at the time of the tsunami because of the detailed description of events.
I don't believe they wandered the desert for forty years but believe their 'calendar' wasn't like ours or as the Romans later set up. I belive they measured time with how many new moons etc or whatever.
Jericho. The OT is crammed with violence and so yes it is possible that, that happened.
All this does not mean that I believe. There are too many contradictions and flaws in the bible.
For instance in Revelations, John is supposedly in spirit form and has visions of the end of the earth, he hears God speak. He then says that Satan will be imprisoned for a thousand years, after that he will be released and sent to the nations at the four corners of the earth.
People of that time thought the earth was as a carpet and that the mountains weighed it down to prevent it from floating away. So four corners was used in conversation.
But it was supposedly God speaking and if so, he would as the creator, know that the earth is a sphere and has no corners. Therefore he would have said he will send Satan to the nations round the earth.
Having explained that, it makes it clear to me that John was story telling and exagerating. He probably just had a nightmare and then embroidered on it.
So a 'loop hole' and an untruth, so that makes me question everything else in the book.
Its either the truth or its not..... Believers can't have both but seem to want it
 
mstricky said:
I believe Isrealites were crossing from Egypt at the time of the tsunami because of the detailed description of events.
I don't believe they wandered the desert for forty years but believe their 'calendar' wasn't like ours or as the Romans later set up. I belive they measured time with how many new moons etc or whatever.
Jericho. The OT is crammed with violence and so yes it is possible that, that happened.
All this does not mean that I believe. There are too many contradictions and flaws in the bible.
For instance in Revelations, John is supposedly in spirit form and has visions of the end of the earth, he hears God speak. He then says that Satan will be imprisoned for a thousand years, after that he will be released and sent to the nations at the four corners of the earth.
People of that time thought the earth was as a carpet and that the mountains weighed it down to prevent it from floating away. So four corners was used in conversation.
But it was supposedly God speaking and if so, he would as the creator, know that the earth is a sphere and has no corners. Therefore he would have said he will send Satan to the nations round the earth.
Having explained that, it makes it clear to me that John was story telling and exagerating. He probably just had a nightmare and then embroidered on it.
So a 'loop hole' and an untruth, so that makes me question everything else in the book.
Its either the truth or its not..... Believers can't have both but seem to want it
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Thanks. To make sure I understand correctly, your belief and disbelief in Exodus (separate from the Red Sea crossing) are based solely on your personal feeling for the credibility of the scriptures?

Have you given thought to the curious incident of the dog in the nighttime?

(That is not a question in jest, btw; I will explain if necessary)
 
I guess it's a little difficult explaining eveything on a forum. It would be great to do it in meetings.
I believe the tsunami existed as the detailed description is spot on. Whether it happened as people were crossing, who knows but because of the description, I ( imo) believe it was recorded later by the scribes who witnessed it
What also makes me sceptical is that a large amount of the text in Exodus is what the Lord says to Moses when he visits his tent. Not only would a God not appear in physical form daily; one would need a shorthand secretary to record all that was being said or a tape recorder. So I take all that was 'said' with a pinch of salt.
I don't know of a dog in the night. :)
Did you know that its recorded that Moses married an Ethiopian?
 
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mstricky said:
I guess it's a little difficult explaining eveything on a forum. It would be great to do it in meetings.
I believe the tsunami existed as the detailed description is spot on. Whether it happened as people were crossing, who knows but because of the description, I ( imo) believe it was recorded later by the scribes who witnessed it
What also makes me sceptical is that a large amount of the text in Exodus is what the Lord says to Moses when he visits his tent. Not only would a God not appear in physical form daily; one would need a shorthand secretary to record all that was being said or a tape recorder. So I take all that was 'said' with a pinch of salt.
I don't know of a dog in the night. :)
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Okay. The "curious incident of the dog in the nighttime" is from the Sherlock Holmes story "Silver Blaze." Holmes mentions the curious incident to Watson who replies (paraphrased) "The dog did nothing in the nighttime." Holmes responds "Precisely. That is the curious incident." In other words, if the crime were to have happened as suggested, the dog should have barked, but the dog did not bark, therefore the crime did not happen as suggested.

The relevance here is that such an exodus would leave much evidence which is absent. No Egyptian records. No archaeological evidence in the Sinai. Nothing. No dog barking.

Does that play into your analysis at all?

(and this will be my last post for a while; life calls, I'm not ignoring you)
 
mstricky said:
Correa I don't understand your question. I am saying the tsunami happened, as the description by the people at that time was of a tsunami. They wouldn't know that and put all the happenings down to God and the power of Moses. It was nature and not God causing it.
I was trying to say because of scientists researching and discovering the history of the tsunami, that this made me believe that Moses lived. I hadn't believed that before. Now, even though it has convinced me Moses lived, that doesn't mean that I believe eveything else about him. The burning bush....... shrubs/trees do ignite in high temparatures and again that's nature.
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Its a rather broad question, actually, intended to make people think about works attempting to validade the Bible. I've seen and read a number of documentaries and articles proposing this or that natural phenomena as an explanation for this or that tale of the Bible. The vast majority of these texts and documentaries actually intend to validate the Bible. "This is how goddidit!" would be agood summary. God somehow used natural phenomena to perform its acts. But hey, god is omni! Why god needs a volcano, meteor impact, red algae bloom, etc? Not to mention the obvious problems related to matching natural phenomena with the Biblical descriptions, something which quite often requires a lot of cherry-picking and "what ifs".

Add to the above the embarassing lack of texts -other than the Bible- about a Pharaoh and his army being drowned by a giant wave while chasing slaves, among other things, and you'll see its a rather weak proposal. First show me evidence independent from the Bible that such event happened. Then we can see if it can or not be linked with that Santorini eruption. Depending on the result, we may discuss if Moses existed or not. Note that even if the previous conditions are met, he may be a completely fictional character or a blend of real and/or fictional persons. And even if in the end one reaches the conclusion that Moses existed, the question "Why god needs a volcano" remains, with all its implications.

ETA: Ninja'ed by Garrette...
 
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mstricky said:
I believe the tsunami existed as the detailed description is spot on.
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This seems like another "the story of Genesis is totally right".

Exodus 14:

15 Then the Lord said to Moses, “Why are you crying out to me? Tell the Israelites to move on. 16 Raise your staff and stretch out your hand over the sea to divide the water so that the Israelites can go through the sea on dry ground. 17 I will harden the hearts of the Egyptians so that they will go in after them. And I will gain glory through Pharaoh and all his army, through his chariots and his horsemen. 18 The Egyptians will know that I am the Lord when I gain glory through Pharaoh, his chariots and his horsemen.”

19 Then the angel of God, who had been traveling in front of Israel’s army, withdrew and went behind them. The pillar of cloud also moved from in front and stood behind them, 20 coming between the armies of Egypt and Israel. Throughout the night the cloud brought darkness to the one side and light to the other side; so neither went near the other all night long.

21 Then Moses stretched out his hand over the sea, and all that night the Lord drove the sea back with a strong east wind and turned it into dry land. The waters were divided, 22 and the Israelites went through the sea on dry ground, with a wall of water on their right and on their left.

23 The Egyptians pursued them, and all Pharaoh’s horses and chariots and horsemen followed them into the sea. 24 During the last watch of the night the Lord looked down from the pillar of fire and cloud at the Egyptian army and threw it into confusion. 25 He jammed the wheels of their chariots so that they had difficulty driving. And the Egyptians said, “Let’s get away from the Israelites! The Lord is fighting for them against Egypt.”

26 Then the Lord said to Moses, “Stretch out your hand over the sea so that the waters may flow back over the Egyptians and their chariots and horsemen.” 27 Moses stretched out his hand over the sea, and at daybreak the sea went back to its place. The Egyptians were fleeing toward[c] it, and the Lord swept them into the sea. 28 The water flowed back and covered the chariots and horsemen—the entire army of Pharaoh that had followed the Israelites into the sea. Not one of them survived.

29 But the Israelites went through the sea on dry ground, with a wall of water on their right and on their left.
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Can you explain exactly what you believe is "detailed" and "spot on" in that, and which parts you think are untrue and why?
 
mstricky said:
Sorry, i may have mislead you all. The tsunami/Moses was not mentioned at Alpha. I saw all the details on a documentary on TV. I am Christian but lost my faith some 30 years ago. I live in the UK and am British.
A further detail on that documentary was that the pillar of fire seen in the sky which the people thought was God, was in fact the flames from the volcano but because of the curve of the earth, only the flames could be seen and not the volcano. Santorini is an island near Greece.
I still remain an atheist even though I was having doubts the other night.
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Isn't that what atheists do, have doubts?
 
Squeegee
The cloud would be the cloud made by the volcano it also says in another verse that God made a pillar of fire, more from the volcano. Moses stretched out his hand and the sea withdrew. He later stretched out his hand and the sea flowed back. How else could people of that time describe a tsunami more accurately. But that doesn't mean to say there was a Moses at the time and he could well be fictional as Garrette pointed out
 
mstricky said:
Squeegee
The cloud would be the cloud made by the volcano it also says in another verse that God made a pillar of fire, more from the volcano. Moses stretched out his hand and the sea withdrew. He later stretched out his hand and the sea flowed back. How else could people of that time describe a tsunami more accurately. But that doesn't mean to say there was a Moses at the time and he could well be fictional as Garrette pointed out
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They might have mentioned the huge wave, flood and destruction - but of course, a real tsunami would have had its way with Moses' crew as well. There is zero chance that it would be contained. But the real sticking point for me is that when the "water flows out," you don't get the sort of surface one could easily walk on, nor drive a chariot on.

Have you thought about what the bottom of the "Sea of Reeds" might be like?
 
How tall would the eruption collumn need to be in order to be seen by anyone at that particular site? Its not about the final height reached by volcanic ashes due to wind dispersal; its about how tall the collumn of ashes would have to be.

Are those collumn heights possible? Have they been recorded?

This tall eruption collumn, how long would it last before collapsing?

The glow of the hot material, could it be seen from that distance?

The position of the column must have been fixed; how can this be matched with the descriptions of it moving, changing position?

Whats the timing between the apperance of the collumn, the tsunami and the disappearance of the collumn?

Tsunamis coming from two opposing sides? Its this possible?

Where are the Egyptian records of such tragedy?

Where are the Egyptian records of so many Hebrew slaves and their release, escape, whatever?

The more I think about it, the more it seems unlikely. "Here's the truth! Lets seek things that match with it."
 
Yes I did consider what the bottom of the sea would be like. And you are right, most likely Moses and crew wouldn't have escaped the tsunami either. But to me, there is no doubt that a tsunami occurred
 
Correa I can't answer all your questions and it is about two years since I watched the documentary on the tsunami facts. They were scientists that had studied it and filmed and explained the Reed Sea. Santorini is near Greece and they said it was the biggest vocanic eruption ever. Devastating the island so that is left now with only access up the cliffs by cable car. I went there a few years back on a visit from cruise ship. Because of the curve of the earth, only the clouds/fire could be seen from the Reed Sea. They pointed out that this sea is at the edge of the Med on the curve from Egypt to Israel. The Suez Canal starts were the Reed sea was, so the building and surrounds of the canal have covered up the reed part. They also found lots of lava which would have been washed to shore by the sea from the volcano
 
mstricky said:
Yes I did consider what the bottom of the sea would be like. And you are right, most likely Moses and crew wouldn't have escaped the tsunami either. But to me, there is no doubt that a tsunami occurred
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That should at least be something you could look into. For example, where is the volcano in relation to where the event happened? Was there a sloughing into the sea that would cause a tsunami?

We know a great deal now about how tsunami's happen. If evidence is there, it could be used to date Exodus independently. You could also calculate, based on where the volcano is in relation to the Reed Sea, how long the water would have flowed out, based on estimates of how much volume a tsunami would have drawn from the shoreline. This is quite doable and would either support or tend to disconfirm the idea.

I am not against new ideas, but I like to see where someone has tried to figure out the consequences and looked for more. Too much of what passes for research by theologists is "plausible" and then, nothing. They rarely put their ideas to the test. We don't want to make that mistake.

ETA: I just looked at Google maps. How would the islands between Santorini and the coast affect the shape/possibility of a tsunami?
 
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