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. . . Given your claim that the "moral issue" in marriage equality is "the good of the children"; and, given that you have not presented a single valid, recent, study demonstrating a specific harm experienced by "the children" in untraditional marriages . . . .

Note the following:

"Imagine that human beings reproduced asexually and that human offspring were self-sufficient. In that case, would any culture have developed an institution anything like what we know as marriage? It seems clear that the answer is no. . . . Because marriage uniquely meets essential needs in such a structured way, it should be regulated for the common good, which can be understood apart from specifically religious arguments." (Brief excerpts from "What Is Marriage," Harvard Journal of Law & Public Policy, Vol. 34, No. 1, Winter 2010. The article was written by three scholars, including a professor of jurisprudence at Princeton.)

". . .whatever the causes, the debasement of the concepts of marriage and family will destroy us. Lycurgus achieved it in ancient Sparta and produced a nation of racist brutes" ("What's Wrong with Same-Sex Marriage? American Thinker, Sept. 2013, Paul Shlichta).

"Sociologists have demonstrated over and over again that the optimal nurturing environment for young children is in a home where they are raised in a two-parent family headed by a man and a woman who are married to each other. All good public policy will facilitate this ideal and discourage the recognition of marriage counterfeits. . . . Children need the complementary balance of the kind of love both a mother and a father provide. . . ." ("Why same-sex marriage is bad for children," Renew America, July 7, 2008, Bryan Fischer.

Contrary to SV's claim, there are many studies and articles that make it clear children do best in a home headed by a husband and a wife. What I have posted here are very brief excerpts from lengthy articles that document that fact.
 
I support my Church's position re. same-sex marriage.

Your suggestion that the research of those social scientists who oppose same-sex marriage is necessarily flawed is incorrect. Moreover, the jury is stilll out on whether or not same-sex marriage has a negative effect on children.

Is there a scriptural basis for your church's position on homosexuality? Or is it all political? I ask again, because while I'm not as familiar with the BoM, I know the verses from the Hebrew and Christian Bibles quite well, and the arguments used to condemn homosexuality don't have much to stand on.
 
Note the following:

"Imagine that human beings reproduced asexually and that human offspring were self-sufficient. In that case, would any culture have developed an institution anything like what we know as marriage? It seems clear that the answer is no. . . . Because marriage uniquely meets essential needs in such a structured way, it should be regulated for the common good, which can be understood apart from specifically religious arguments." (Brief excerpts from "What Is Marriage," Harvard Journal of Law & Public Policy, Vol. 34, No. 1, Winter 2010. The article was written by three scholars, including a professor of jurisprudence at Princeton.)

". . .whatever the causes, the debasement of the concepts of marriage and family will destroy us. Lycurgus achieved it in ancient Sparta and produced a nation of racist brutes" ("What's Wrong with Same-Sex Marriage? American Thinker, Sept. 2013, Paul Shlichta).

"Sociologists have demonstrated over and over again that the optimal nurturing environment for young children is in a home where they are raised in a two-parent family headed by a man and a woman who are married to each other. All good public policy will facilitate this ideal and discourage the recognition of marriage counterfeits. . . . Children need the complementary balance of the kind of love both a mother and a father provide. . . ." ("Why same-sex marriage is bad for children," Renew America, July 7, 2008, Bryan Fischer.

Contrary to SV's claim, there are many studies and articles that make it clear children do best in a home headed by a husband and a wife. What I have posted here are very brief excerpts from lengthy articles that document that fact.

Those are not studies. They are opinion pieces.
Please present an ACTUAL sociological study published in a reputable peer reviewed journal that shows gay marriage is "bad" for children.


Eta:btw, the studies these authors refer to (when they are bold enough to link to the actual research) are to the same studies that do not compare gay couples vs, Herero couples. Rather they are referring to married man and woman vs. single man woman.
I believe you know this fact, but seem to insist on intentionally obfuscate it. Why is that?
 
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Because it's part of the doctrine of the Church, which LDS believe is formulated by God and communicated to the Church's living prophet, Thomas S. Monson.
Like those prophets who made racist comments? How do you know your prophet is correct? Mormons blindly believed Brigham Young when he condemned interracial marriage.

Brigham Young said:
"Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African race? If the white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot. This will always be so." (Journal of Discourses, Vol.10, p.109)

Hinkley said he didn't know why blacks didn't have the priesthood and Mormon leaders didn't even know that Mark Hoffman was a fraud when they met with him regarding historical documents. The veracity of your prophets when it comes to morality should be circumspect to say the least. It would seem that god mumbles when speaking to Mormon prophets.
 
Note the following:

"Imagine that human beings reproduced asexually and that human offspring were self-sufficient. In that case, would any culture have developed an institution anything like what we know as marriage? It seems clear that the answer is no. . . . Because marriage uniquely meets essential needs in such a structured way, it should be regulated for the common good, which can be understood apart from specifically religious arguments." (Brief excerpts from "What Is Marriage," Harvard Journal of Law & Public Policy, Vol. 34, No. 1, Winter 2010. The article was written by three scholars, including a professor of jurisprudence at Princeton.)

". . .whatever the causes, the debasement of the concepts of marriage and family will destroy us. Lycurgus achieved it in ancient Sparta and produced a nation of racist brutes" ("What's Wrong with Same-Sex Marriage? American Thinker, Sept. 2013, Paul Shlichta).

"Sociologists have demonstrated over and over again that the optimal nurturing environment for young children is in a home where they are raised in a two-parent family headed by a man and a woman who are married to each other. All good public policy will facilitate this ideal and discourage the recognition of marriage counterfeits. . . . Children need the complementary balance of the kind of love both a mother and a father provide. . . ." ("Why same-sex marriage is bad for children," Renew America, July 7, 2008, Bryan Fischer.

Contrary to SV's claim, there are many studies and articles that make it clear children do best in a home headed by a husband and a wife. What I have posted here are very brief excerpts from lengthy articles that document that fact.

"SV" would like you to present citations to actual studies demonstrating the claims you are making. "SV" would also like you to present citations to the legal precedents to which you allude, in re: forced sterilization of women. "SV" would also like you to answer the ongoing question as to why you think your sect should be able to impose its self-invented standards for the behaviour of members, upon non-members.

"SV" also wonders why you respond to "SV" in the third person...
 
You might want to check out the Harvard Journal of Law and Public Policy. It isn't in the business of publishing "opinion pieces."
There paper is flawed by the exact argument present by foster zygote.
They attempt to define marriage as having a conjugal requirement. Their argument would, by extension, suggest that infertile couples are excluded from marriage.

This is foolishness.

Further, their work does not actually test the idea if gay marriage is good for children. They merely argue that it isn't. Do you recognize that by not actually testing a falsifiable hypothesis using a well designed experiment, nor by using actual references to factual data, they are merely giving an opinion?

Once again, please answer this question:
Since we know that lower economic status is worse for children, should we exclude poor people from marrying?

Eta:
As described by the Harvard journal of law and public policy.
"The Journal is one of the most widely circulated student-edited law reviews and the nation’s leading forum for conservative and libertarian legal scholarship."
It is not peer reviewed scientific journal. It is an opinion paper. A self admitted, biased opinion review.
 
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You might want to check out the Harvard Journal of Law and Public Policy. It isn't in the business of publishing "opinion pieces."


Yes, it is. In fact, that's it's main business. Almost all legal scholarship is composed of opinion pieces. The question is whether those opinions are persuasive on the judiciary.

The journal you've linked to is not the Harvard Law Journal, it is an alternative right-wing journal maintained by law students:

The Harvard Journal of Law & Public Policy is published three times annually by the Harvard Society for Law & Public Policy, Inc., an organization of Harvard Law School students. The Journal is one of the most widely circulated student-edited law reviews and the nation’s leading forum for conservative and libertarian legal scholarship.

Furthermore, here are several recent articles which, by their title alone, show that the journal is engaged in the business of publishing "opinion pieces":

Summer 2013 said:
Resolved: Natural Law Should Inform Constitutional Law

961 The Natural Law Challenge Hadley Arkes
977 Natural Law Jurisprudence: A Skeptical Perspective Alex Kozinski

The two articles above contradict each other.


Should We Make Crime Impossible?

Can Technological Innovation Survive Government Regulation?

Meet The New Boss: Continuity In Presidential War Powers?

All of these are clearly opinion pieces. The vast majority of their articles are, because the only authoritative statements in law are those that come from either the legislature or the courts.

Please stop making pronouncements about the law if you don't really understand it yourself.
 
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In Post 8874, you respond to my suggestion that your question (what harm, etc.) is really an assertion, by accusing me of taking liberties, and reaffirming that it is only a question. When I contest that, you then say it is both. I don't think the problem here is "density." I think it's an unwillingness to take full responsibility for your assertions. The initial question was ansered by multiple posters multiple times. If you don't like the answers, fine, but if you ask the question multiple times after having had an answer, it ceases to be a question.
Marriage was instituted primarily as a means to raise children with legally sanctioned protection. What protection do two adult males, who will not have children, receive as a result of being married? Perhaps you're referring to financial matters.



.
After all this time and all this discussion have you not understood the first thing anyone is talking about? Over and over and over, people have spoken about same sex marriages THAT INVOLVE CHILDREN. The question of protecting children in these families is part of the argument that led to the Vermont Supreme Court ruling that brought about civil unions. Gay parents can and do have children. Some have them from previous unions, some adopt, some have them within the union. It's been pointed out over and over. Denial of marriage rights to the parents in gay based families is contrary to the welfare of their children. An argument against gay marriage that relies on the unlikelihood of children is far far more applicable to a large class of heterosexual marriages that are (and, I hasten to add, certainly should be) permitted. Children are allowed, and their welfare is considered. They are not required.

Mind you, financial and other matters are also a big consideration, but your refusal to admit to the existence of children in gay marriages at this point, after pages and pages of discussion in which that matter has been brought up by various people is utterly baffling if it's honest.

And finally, how isolated must one be from earthly reality to remember that approximately 50 percent of the people on this earth are women.

Trying to find a way to express my dismay at the quality of an argument against single sex marriage that omits mention not only of children but of women taxes my ability to stay within the bounds of civil discourse, so I'll just go so far as to say that if your view of gay marriage really is simply of "two adult males who will not have children," then you're not looking outward honestly.
 
You might want to check out the Harvard Journal of Law and Public Policy. It isn't in the business of publishing "opinion pieces."

I read it.

It is purely opinion, and furthermore, it is bigoted opinion, riddled with rhetorical trickery.

Am I to assume that your position is that, as your citation claims, marriage has no function except reproduction?

How do you square that with the real world? What of straight couples who are unable to reproduce? Shall they be barred from marriage?

Should fertility testing be a prerequisite for marriage? How would you know who is or is not fertile, and which combinations might result in viable offspring?

A straight couple of my acquaintance tried for years to conceive. They expended tens of thousands on IVF and such like things. Eventually they gave up, and after some time adopted, at considerable expense, a chinese orphan. The kid is great, but shortly after the adoption, they separated. End result? Single mother, bereft father.

Had they been a gay couple, you would be all over that. But they are not. And you don't like that much, because it torpedoes your position.
 
Those are not studies. They are opinion pieces.
Please present an ACTUAL sociological study published in a reputable peer reviewed journal that shows gay marriage is "bad" for children.

Note:

"Two peer-reviewed articles [emphasis added] published Sunday in a scholarly journal (Social Science Research) cast doubt on a core assumption used to advance same-sex marriage."

The article notes that in 2005 the American Psychological Assn. (APA) stated "Not a single study has found children of lesbian or gay parents to be disadvantaged in any significant respect relative to children of heterosexual parents."

That was in 2005.

The article continues: "Yesterday the academic journal Social Science Research published a detailed methodological review of the research on which the APA based its conclusion." The journal reported that not one of the 59 studies described in the APA report "compared a large, random sample of lesbian or gay parents with a large, random sample of married parents and their children." Not one.

A second large, representative article also published in Social Science Reserch reports on a study by U. of Texas sociologist Dr. Mark Regnerus. His study gives the "most representative" view available of young adults whose parents had same-sex relatiionships. More than 15,000 young adults were screened to find 3,000 participants. 175 of them told Regnerus that their mothers had been in same-sex relationships and 73 said their fathers had.

Findings: Young adults whose mothers had same-sex relationships fared worse than their peers "in intact biological families." Examples: They were "far more likely" to report being sexually abused, on welfare, and unemployed.

Young adults whose fathers had been in same-sex relationships were much more likely to have considered suicide, to have a sexually transmitted infection, or to have been raped.

(Source: "New Research on Children of Same-Sex Parents Suggests Differences Matter," The Foundry, Christine Kim and Jennifer Marshall, June 11, 2012)

So there you have it, joobz--the very documentation you challenged me to produce.
 
[FONT=Myriad Roman, Arial, Helvetica, Sans-serif;]Harvard Journal of Law and Public Policy, Vol. 34, No. 1, pp. 245-287, Winter 2010[/FONT]

This seems to be the paper that Skyrider44 is referencing. It is generally considered to be good form to include the reference link when quoting an available resource Skyrider44.

Very dense, not really research, just a fluff piece by some PhD's who are against same sex marriage, near as I can tell.

[FONT=Myriad Roman, Arial, Helvetica, Sans-serif;]Abstract: [/FONT]
[FONT=Myriad Roman, Arial, Helvetica, Sans-serif;] In the article, we argue that as a moral reality, marriage is the union of a man and a woman who make a permanent and exclusive commitment to each other of the type that is naturally fulfilled by bearing and rearing children together, and renewed by acts that constitute the behavioral part of the process of reproduction. We further argue that there are decisive principled as well as prudential reasons for the state to enshrine this understanding of marriage in its positive law, and to resist the call to recognize as marriages the sexual unions of same-sex partners. [/FONT]

It's in pdf form and actually available as a download. It is merely a very wordy argument from authority...like religion.

A thought experiment might crystallize our central argument.
Almost every culture in every time and place has had some institution
that resembles what we know as marriage. But imagine that human beings reproduced asexually and that human offspring were self‐sufficient. In that case, would any culture have developed an institution anything like what we know as marriage? It seems clear that the answer is no.

What an odd argument. The answer is not at all clearly "no". No mention of property rights, or inheritance matters, or even devotion and love! Very creepy stuff.

This thread continues to be an excellent example of the very basic differences in the way skeptics approach an argument as opposed to those who resist acquiring critical thinking skills.
 
You might want to check out the Harvard Journal of Law and Public Policy. It isn't in the business of publishing "opinion pieces."

Opinion piece:
http://www.pewresearch.org/daily-number/same-sex-couples-raising-children-is-bad-for-society/

Notice how the conclusion with which the authors started is "supported" by polls of people's opinions.

Study:
http://www.umass.edu/newsoffice/art...ow-parents-work-together-more-important-their

Notice how the conclusion is reached after the facts are collected and analyzed.

Meta-study:
http://futureofchildren.org/publica....xml?journalid=37&articleid=108&sectionid=699

Notice how the results of over 50 studies are analyzed, after which a conclusion is reached.
 
Look at these parents

http://www.today.com/news/superdads-couple-adopts-14-kids-foster-care-4B11187918#

and try to tell me that these kids aren't incredibly lucky. These children are unwanted, some are disabled, some are mixed race, some have been abused in the foster care system. And on top of raising their own 15, these parents also foster OTHER unwanted children until a home can be found for them.

And also try to tell me that any of Fred and Rosemary Wests children (a very happily married couple) wouldn't have been better off with the superdads.
Or this heterosexual married couple

The 28-year-old woman was systematically murdering her infants shortly after giving birth to them, either at home or in the woods, and hiding their bodies because she worried about her husband leaving her if she had any more children.

This is becoming annoying. To deny any children a loving home based on an antiquated set of beliefs fed by a known conman is just crazy.

How you can say that the superdads are not valuable members of society, doing the jobs that their heterosexual parents could or would not do is actually perverse. These are not children that would have been chosen by Mr and Mrs Middle Class White Hetero. These are children that would have spent their days in foster care, and if you don't know how that turns out, you should do your research. Long term foster care is not great for children's outcomes, either financially or educationally. They are more likely to go missing from school and they are more likely to become involved in crime.

As it happens, I know about this stuff having worked as the consultant child psychologist on the adoption and fostering panel here in london. I know how near impossible it is to get these children a decent home, adoption is the best long term solution for unwanted children and here these chaps are doing it.
I may also point out that foster care is prohibitively expensive for councils, I know this because I am also a foster parent. The short term cost is only one thing, however, foster placements often break down, and the economic burden on the tax payer of children who have not been brought up in a loving home rises exponentially if those children become unproductive and potentially criminal adults.

Now, all of these examples are extreme cases, of that I am aware. They illustrate, however, that parents should (and they really should) be judged on their parenting abilities, not on their gender, not on their sexual orientation and not on their race. These things are clearly not markers of successful parents as illustrated above. Otherwise these events would not happen if heterosexuality and married status were RELIABLE indicators of parenting ability.

if you like, I may even concede that it is possible that the best outcomes are gained for children raised in a stable married home. It doesn't really matter as an argument. This is because it may well also be true that the best outcomes for children are when raised in a middle/upper middle class financially viable home, or in a home where they get sent to Eton or Harrow, or where they had a goddammed pony in the back garden and are raised in an English country village, or where they only eat home made food and brown rice and never an e - number passed their lips. These variables, however, are not within our capability to manipulate.

Children are not raised in a utopia as a rule, it is a rare family indeed that can provide the brown rice munching, pony owning, Eton going, tweed wearing trust fund owning environment, and while I may concede that these kids will probably end up running the country (again) and being rather more successful than their peers, it is daft to try to restrict child raising to these families alone, and I'm sure you will agree it's impossible as well. and, quite frankly, a nation of over achieving polititians, does not a utopia make anyway.

So given this, trying to ensure that all children have heterosexual married parents only, is like sticking your finger in the hole in the dyke, looking smug and ignoring the tsunami towering over your head.

if (and this is a big if) I concede that a married and heterosexual couple are best placed to adopt and I look about and try to find only them to adopt or raise the many many children we have on our books, then what happens to the rest of the kids. The mixed race kids, the disabled kids, the older kids, the foetal alcohol kids, the abused and violent kids, the just plain ugly kids. Are they to be treated like so much human detritus, not deemed worthy of a home, OR do we let them go to loving couples (and loving singles) who may or may not fit the LDS definition of pure and appropriate parents. To a life where they get a chance?

It's insanity and it's also abusive. It lets down the children that are in our care as a society.
 
Note:

"Two peer-reviewed articles [emphasis added] published Sunday in a scholarly journal (Social Science Research) cast doubt on a core assumption used to advance same-sex marriage."

The article notes that in 2005 the American Psychological Assn. (APA) stated "Not a single study has found children of lesbian or gay parents to be disadvantaged in any significant respect relative to children of heterosexual parents."

That was in 2005.

The article continues: "Yesterday the academic journal Social Science Research published a detailed methodological review of the research on which the APA based its conclusion." The journal reported that not one of the 59 studies described in the APA report "compared a large, random sample of lesbian or gay parents with a large, random sample of married parents and their children." Not one.

A second large, representative article also published in Social Science Reserch reports on a study by U. of Texas sociologist Dr. Mark Regnerus. His study gives the "most representative" view available of young adults whose parents had same-sex relatiionships. More than 15,000 young adults were screened to find 3,000 participants. 175 of them told Regnerus that their mothers had been in same-sex relationships and 73 said their fathers had.

Findings: Young adults whose mothers had same-sex relationships fared worse than their peers "in intact biological families." Examples: They were "far more likely" to report being sexually abused, on welfare, and unemployed.

Young adults whose fathers had been in same-sex relationships were much more likely to have considered suicide, to have a sexually transmitted infection, or to have been raped.

(Source: "New Research on Children of Same-Sex Parents Suggests Differences Matter," The Foundry, Christine Kim and Jennifer Marshall, June 11, 2012)

So there you have it, joobz--the very documentation you challenged me to produce.
First of all, how about linking to the actual studies? If you need help, all you need to do is copy the URL of the site, highlight the part of your text that you want to contain the link, then click the 'Insert link' button at the top of the window. Then you just paste the URL into the box and click 'OK'.

Secondly, I don't see anything in your post that indicates that the parents in the revised study represented married homosexual couples. You only refer to people who had "same-sex relationships". So are we talking about parents who were in heterosexual marriages who had extramarital affairs with same sex partners? What would be the findings regarding children in families in which one parent had a heterosexual extramarital affair? If they are comparing intact biological families with a sample of families in which a parent has had an extramarital affair, or marriages that ended in divorce, can you see how that would be a problem? Please present the actual research so we can attempt to answer such questions.

Given that the only citation that you actually provide leads to yet another Heritage Foundation propaganda piece featuring Christine Kim, I have to wonder about its usefulness.
 
Now, all of these examples are extreme cases, of that I am aware. They illustrate, however, that parents should (and they really should) be judged on their parenting abilities, not on their gender, not on their sexual orientation and not on their race. These things are clearly not markers of successful parents as illustrated above.

I don't think most people would disagree with you here, but can you think of an objective way this might be measured? As it stands, people in the parent-decision-making capacity (judges, etc) have little else to fall back on but their prejudice: what and who they'd consider "good people" otherwise.
 
That's certainly a major part of it. Marriage makes it possible to bring children into the world under the protection of a father and a mother who are legally committed to each other.

But there is no legal requirement that couples get married in order to raise children, nor is there a legal requirement that anyone who does marry must have children. And married couples are certainly not legally committed to each other in the sense that you are implying. If one or both parties are unhappy in the marriage, there is no legal requirement that they remain committed to one another. One can be legally required to take responsibility for one's offspring regardless of whether they are produced within a marriage or not.

Please feel free to advance your opinions regarding the best familial arrangements. As a Mormon, please feel free to practice these arrangements yourself according to the teachings of your church. But don't support attempts to impose special legislation that only applies to same-sex relationships between people who are not members of your church. And I'm afraid that any argument that you use against same-sex couples, but regard as "absurd" or "farcical" when applied equally to heterosexual couples, is just that: a "special" law that applies only to certain people. It's no better that Jim Crow.
 

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Why do you keep quoting the same article by Christine Kim that was written for the Heritage Foundation, Skyrider?
She's simply attempting to push their conservative Christian values and has no concern for the truth or objectivity.
She also doesn't appear to understand that causation does not imply correlation, going by this piece:
http://familyscholars.org/2013/01/1...ce-faith-begins-in-the-home-by-christine-kim/

"Two striking statistics on today’s young adults: One in four has experienced a parental divorce, and one in four does not affiliate with a religion."
The fail is strong in this one.
 
In Post 8874, you respond to my suggestion that
Mind you, financial and other matters are also a big consideration, but your refusal to admit to the existence of children in gay marriages at this point, after pages and pages of discussion in which that matter has been brought up by various people is utterly baffling if it's honest.

Perhaps you're confusing me with some other poster. The welfare of children has been the centerpiece of my criticism of gay marriage from Day One. Why do you think I just posted excerpts from two, recent peer-reviewed journal
studies that indicate children do best when raised in a home with a mother and a father?

And finally, how isolated must one be from earthly reality to remember that approximately 50 percent of the people on this earth are women.

Isn't that a marvel--a mother and a father for the children they bring into the world!

: Trying to find a way to express my dismay at the quality of an argument against single sex marriage that omits mention not only of children but of women taxes my ability to stay within the bounds of civil discourse. . . .

Now I'm virtually certain you're thinking of some other poster.
 
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