• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Continuation Part Six: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

Status
Not open for further replies.
It stands for Stato Avanzamento Lavori and it is the "log" if you will, of all the samples taken. Each sample is numbered and the specific result is given (e.g. saliva is present, positive with luminol, etc.) I have the pdf but I can't link to it because it is on my hard drive. Perhaps someone can link to where a copy is available.


I could but I'm not going to. I showed the whole group here how to solve this but it remains unsolved except for a rogue propaganda site that superficially mimics the solution. What's the point of showing the peasant farmers more efficient ways to farm if all that happens is they thank you for plowing their field and go back to their old ways?
 
In a paper I read on-line about the limitations of TMB testing, one of the chemicals listed that was good at causing a false negative was bleach.

??? That wouldn't be a false negative, unless they were testing for bleach instead of or in addition to blood.

I have to think that if these footprints contained any residue of blood, at least some of the TMB and DNA swabs would have confirmed that.

I understand why you're skeptical of what you are reading on both sides. But keep in mind that PIP are in the position of trying to prove a negative here, despite the lack of confirmation from other tests, and despite the fact that the luminol traces don't show any recognizable pattern or connection to the crime.
 
??? That wouldn't be a false negative, unless they were testing for bleach instead of or in addition to blood.

I have to think that if these footprints contained any residue of blood, at least some of the TMB and DNA swabs would have confirmed that.

I understand why you're skeptical of what you are reading on both sides. But keep in mind that PIP are in the position of trying to prove a negative here, despite the lack of confirmation from other tests, and despite the fact that the luminol traces don't show any recognizable pattern or connection to the crime.

This argument drives me crazy. Grinder is convinced that it is blood even though I have him persuaded that it couldn't have been from the crime scene.

I of course have to conclude that it isn't blood at all. I can't ignore the negative TMB test and think discounting it without a confirmatory test is scientifically unsound. SO WHY DO IT?
 
I discussed the second toe with a commenter named "BMull." He was of the opinion that no one has a second toe as short as the mark in the luminol print. Yet even if we agree that the mark is not a second toe, then where is Amanda's second toe in the print if she indeed made it? Her reference print indicates that her second toe is quite long, relative to her big toe. I would like to have the opinion of a doctor who specializes in feet or some other professional with specialist knowledge before I come to a final conclusion.

EDT
Is it possible that some of the luminol prints in the hallway were made by someone wearing socks?

Some people have the big toe longer than the second toe and some have the big toe shorter. Amanda's second toe is longer, yet the reference sample has the second toe clearly shorter. Here is a discussion and some pictures, there are many pictures out there of various second toe lengths.

http://udel.edu/~mcdonald/mythtoelength.html
 
??? That wouldn't be a false negative, unless they were testing for bleach instead of or in addition to blood.

I have to think that if these footprints contained any residue of blood, at least some of the TMB and DNA swabs would have confirmed that.

I understand why you're skeptical of what you are reading on both sides. But keep in mind that PIP are in the position of trying to prove a negative here, despite the lack of confirmation from other tests, and despite the fact that the luminol traces don't show any recognizable pattern or connection to the crime.
My response to LondonJohn above might also apply here. False negative was not a good term to use. Bleach destroys that which is in the blood that makes it react to TMB (as I understand it) so the TMB result isn't exactly a false negative.

I am a bit skeptical of some of the things that have been said on both sides. Mostly because I form a conclusion and then realize that the basis for that conclusion was not as good as I thought.

Full disclosure: I think it is very unlikely that RS & AK are guilty in any way of this crime. The issues that I am asking about are mostly on the margins of what is relevant to that judgment.

The magical clean up for which no explanation is given strikes me as a stand alone powerful argument for innocence. There seems to be no credible response to that even if Machiavelli has succeeded in throwing some doubt on some of the claims of the pro innocent group.

In particular I am less sure that Stefanoni actually hid the negative TMB results than I was before. However, it still takes a lot of hand waving to justify Stefanoni's testimony that foot prints contained blood when she didn't do a confirmatory test and some of the presumptive testing that she did do indicated there was no blood in the prints.
 
This simply isn't true. False positives in fact ARE COMMON.
There are countless substances that react to Luminol. Luminol reacts to any substance that contains copper, iron, cyanides, bleaches as well as specific proteins.

Fecal matter does not react to luminol or TMB, unless it contains blood (it should not); as well as urine should not react, if it does you should seek treatment.
Bleaches instead is another issue (note: it has the power to react to TMB as well).
Well bleach, first, it reacts in a way that forensics are supposedly trained to distinguish it from blood. Light emitted is not at the same wavelength, has a slightly higher pitch, but above all the timing of reaction is different. The glow of blood and enzymes would fizzle down slower, they will keep a peak after 20 seconds and will retain some visible luminescence for about two minutes, while the peak of chlorine is more intense and disappears more quickly, in less than half the time.
However the most important thing, is that chlorine is found by literature to be volatile. The stain it loses the property of reacting to luminol within a very short time. The property to react to luminol disappears in fact after only a few hours. Sodium hypochlorite does not precipitate, it evaporates with the water solution as the stain dries out; Creamer and Quickenden point out that despite stabilizer, after 8 hours the common house bleaches would show no longer any reaction to luminol.
Moreover, bleach destroys DNA, while DNA was found in many latent traces.
Finally, just bear in mind that bleach is not supposed to come into contact with human skin; there is no reason why someone should steep their feet or walk in a bleach dilution.

Now, if the topic of contention was about the alleged power of TMB as a falsifyer, then when you mention salts of copper, iron and other compounds of non-human use, then you need to consider that – so literature shows – TMB also reacts with such compounds. TMB reacts to iron, copper, nickel; it also reacts to enzymes containing a heme or to some chlorophylls.

If you assume there was, let’s say, a nickel of copper based soil diluted in water, well, besides the fact that the presence of such oxides as “common” in that house or in that environment should be shown, since there would be clues of that presence all over the house, not just in isolated prints, anyway if the presence of that substance was significant, the stain would anyway react to TMB.
Contrarily to the claims of others, a lack of reaction to TMB coupled with a positive luminol reaction does not mean “something else” different than blood, but it means low dilution (of whatever substance that is).

Why do forensics manuals instruct techs to perform BOTH TESTS?
Why do forensic manuals instruct techs to perform a confirmatory test?

The answer to the second question is obvious, since luminol and TMB are presumptive tests while human-antibodies test indicates human cells unambiguously, it is logical that you would attempt to get full information from a specific confirmatory test. Unfortunately, the specific anti-body test for blood does not have remotely the sensitiveness of presumptive tests like luminol or TMB, thus may be negative on stains that are latent, diluted or washed away. It is logical for it to be recommended, but it is not logical to expect it to be always positive.

As for the first question, after saying I actually don’t know these alleged instructions on manuals, which you don’t quote, anyway, I say that if some manuals say that, I don’t know why they do.
There may be good reasons to always run a TMB test, since it is very easy and cheap to carry out, and luminol may not always be an immediate or safe response (think about that you are in the dark meaning extreme conditions where you can’t film document or take pictures and you have later to retain and develop or print a photography, etc.). And I think TMB is also the default and first test to carry on since it is what you do when you see the visible traces. I think any ‘protocol’ may be developed from the procedure used for visible stains, and may be aimed at minimizing risks of mistakes.

But these speculations are not really important. What I know is that ‘protocols’ are not evidence that some procedure is actually logical, useful, proper or scientific. It is just unscientific to assume so. It is a frequent error to mistake established technical procedures with science, or as evidence that the procedure is the best one. Angelina Jolie decided to undergo a double mastectomy while she was healthy and had no breast cancer, since doctors found a gene which put her at high risk. There was a medical assessment behind this decision, a procedure believed to be a scientific approach by some American physicians. Most European doctors viewed the decision to remove the target-organ as wrong and inappropriate. Opposite opinions, divergent protocols, technical assessments and ‘schools’ co-exist.
And it also happens that scientific communities changed their opinions on techniques that were believed to be scientific and established, that were later abandoned and as knowledge developed they were later deemed unscientific, or anyway no longer the best choice.
Electro-shock was considered a scientific treatment in psychiatry for almost eighty years; after that, in the recent decades, it happened to be proven to be absolute crap. But it was ‘science’ for eighty years. There have also been seventy or so years of lobotomy. For the cure of tuberculosis, doctors believed that artificially provoked pneumothorax could be helpful to allow the lung to rest and thus diminish inflammation, exhaustion and help the patient to breath. This technique was believed to be scientific for over fifty years, until the seventies. Then it was found to be totally unscientific. For the cure of epilepsy, for decades doctors would employ a treatment based on insulin aimed at causing ‘insulin-shock’ and hypoglycemic coma, which was believed to be effective to cure acute episodes. This also was proven unscientific only after decades. Why did the previous protocols say that? I don’t know. What I know is that protocols contain errors, but the recommendation of performing a TMB test is totally harmless, whether right or wrong.
Assessments about techniques and best approaches also change: until about ten years ago, surgery was considered the best approach to most discal hernias; today, discal hernia surgery is considered a useless technique for most cases. Knowledge and techniques have changed and consequently assessments and recommendations.
I don’t know if performing a TMB test on a luminol positive latent stain is right or wrong, it it’s sometimes useful or never useful, if it’s logical or not. What I know is that it’s easy cheap and harmless, so even while I doubt its utility I would keep the recommendation.

Why did Stefanoni perform a TMB test if she plans to ignore a negative result?

The question is related to the previous points: Stefanoni simply follows a praxis, or a ‘protocol’. This does not mean that the protocol is necessarily rational or scientific; also, it doesn’t mean that Stefanoni has a ‘plan’ to ignore it. But why should I rule out that she may later decide to ignore it, if there is logical basis to do so?

Why can't you see these prints with the naked eye?
If they were cleaned by Amanda and Raffaele after the crime, why aren't they "streaked"?

The questions aim at considering whether the stains were cleaned up or not.
There are two possibilities, I don’t know if the stains were invisible since their origin, or whether there has been a cleaning with a mop.
On the small bathroom floor, and in front of Meredith’s door, I am positive that the floor was cleaned. While instead in Amanda’s room and in the other spots in the corridor I don’t now.
If the luminol prints they were cleaned up when they were already dry, I don’t see why the latent traces should be “streaked”; however, for two of the prints in the corridor, I do notice there are some very visible “streaks” all around the prints area, looking like signs of sweeping the floor exactly in the area of corridor where the two prints are located.
 
Last edited:
How does bleach cause the wavelength of the Luminol emission to change?

(I actually already know the answer but it's fun to see who is quoting from stupid and unreliable sources)
 
Is it possible that some of the luminol prints in the hallway were made by someone wearing socks?
This is a good question.

I was also thinking that maybe the marks could be made by a person wearing booties with no shoes on underneath. But what cop would wear the booties without shoes? The answer that occurs to me is the cop who showed up wearing high heals, fashionable boots or other impractical footwear, whoever that cop might be.
 
Last edited:
Various claims:
1A. The standard TMB two part test is more selective than Luminol
1B. The standard TMB two part test is not more selective than Luminol
(...)

The funny thing is that - my understanding from reading the literature - is that it is actually the opposite: the method of sample test mixing TMB and peroxide, is more sentitive then Hemastix and even less specific.

In fact, there is even more than two "methods" to employ TMB. But the substance is always the same - Hamastix is TMB - and the 'specificity' of the testing method is strictly related to its sensitiveness; it's just the result of its reduction. The more sensitive, the less specific, and vice-versa. My understanding is the TMB reaction on a separate swab or test tube is used for microscopic amounts, and in laboratory (such as the sample from the knife) while hemastix is used on stains.

Please think about it also logically: a Hemastix strip is just a swab with a mixture of TMB on a support with a substance which releases hydrogen peroxide. It's a prepared mixture of TMB and peroxide. It's always the same reaction, the same two reagents, and the substance detected is always the catalyser.
 
How does bleach cause the wavelength of the Luminol emission to change?

(I actually already know the answer but it's fun to see who is quoting from stupid and unreliable sources)

I don't know the answer but would you please confirm my understanding of a related question. Bleach is one of the substances that can cause Luminol to generate a false positive for blood but the TMB test fails to identify blood that has had bleach mixed with it. Is this correct?
 
I could but I'm not going to. I showed the whole group here how to solve this but it remains unsolved except for a rogue propaganda site that superficially mimics the solution. What's the point of showing the peasant farmers more efficient ways to farm if all that happens is they thank you for plowing their field and go back to their old ways?

Well, DanO, a poster not as familiar with the intricacies of the case asked about the SAL. I suppose one could cop an attitude and recommend he search through 50,000 posts to find where you have explained it to the peasants, but I think it is more accommodating to assist him by providing a link. As I stated, I have them on my hard drive with notes and translations but I can't very well provide a link to my C drive for him.

FWIW, you can relax on your throne, as I PM'd him and offered to email my copy to him.
 
Well, DanO, a poster not as familiar with the intricacies of the case asked about the SAL. I suppose one could cop an attitude and recommend he search through 50,000 posts to find where you have explained it to the peasants, but I think it is more accommodating to assist him by providing a link. As I stated, I have them on my hard drive with notes and translations but I can't very well provide a link to my C drive for him.

FWIW, you can relax on your throne, as I PM'd him and offered to email my copy to him.

Could you attach the file here?
 
The funny thing is that - my understanding from reading the literature - is that it is actually the opposite: the method of sample test mixing TMB and peroxide, is more sentitive then Hemastix and even less specific.

What are you reading Machiavelli? Comic books? You're going to have to provide a cite for this claim because this is bull dengue. The specificity is unlikely to change at all. TMB is going to react to the same substances either way. So the specificity is NOT going to change.
 
Machiavelli - do you agree that Mignini commented in the video that Satanism can never really be ruled out in a crime investigation?

No. Mignini - summed up very briefly - said that about all things - those most unusual, senseless, improbable or strange - simply should never be ruled out pre-emptively, in advance; as well, they should not even be considered as credible investigation tracks based on speculations, just because an enthusiast investigator may fall in the mistake of believeing he is after something deep, strange or peculiar.
 
Last edited:
What are you reading Machiavelli? Comic books? You're going to have to provide a cite for this claim because this is bull dengue. The specificity is unlikely to change at all. TMB is going to react to the same substances either way. So the specificity is NOT going to change.

No the specificity is strictly related to concentration. Because TMB may react with an array of things but reaction would occur at different concentrations for each substance. So if you enhance the overall sentitivity of the method - that means you lower the detection limit amount of substances - you will lower that limit for all possible substances, so you will diminish its overall specificity.
 
I don't know the answer but would you please confirm my understanding of a related question. Bleach is one of the substances that can cause Luminol to generate a false positive for blood but the TMB test fails to identify blood that has had bleach mixed with it. Is this correct?

Halftime (go Packers!)

Bleach causes luminol to react just like blood does, so it would be the bleach reacting, not blood which wouldn't be there anymore for the luminol to react to.

Even if it was the case, why would the possibility those luminol hits were highly diluted blood be relevant to the murder? These are invisible traces from a dilution that wouldn't even have turned water (or whatever) color when they happened and could have been residue from any time.

That diluted, you could drink a glass of water with that much blood in it and never notice. If it was in urine you wouldn't know it, might not even show up if doctors tested for it. Note that TMB is the test they often use for that. ;)
 
Why would you think they would be every where? The reason they are in just limited areas might a result of many things. For example, a steel fitting in one place, where there might be just copper or pex fittings in the other bathroom and kitchen. If it was a long time before, there might have been a partial clean up of the rusty water where, these prints were allowed to dry. My point is there really is no way to know.



I'm not sure how they can say that those bare footprints are compatible with say 25+% women. Why not say 50%+ or 75% of women? How did they determine this figure from those blobs? Can you see that this figure was undoubtedly pulled out of thin air?

Do they really have to be from a woman? How about a child or a man? My bet is that those prints were compatible with all the roommates. Did they really rule out Filomena, Meredith an Laura? I doubt it.

From my perspective, the biggest reason to believe that they belong to Amanda is not the size and shape of those very amorphous blobs, but their location, mostly in Amanda's room and in the hallway. But consider this Grinder. Amanda had only lived in that cottage for 40 days. Isn't it possible that those prints had been there for months, even a year before? How would anyone really know?


So lets speculate that these prints can be definitely id'ed to Knox. (and we know that is impossible) But lets play along with the Italian logic here...OK so we have Knox prints with no DNA except for couple that have only hers....which certainly indicates ....ahhhhh...what? Mignini/Yummi/Mach? Right nothing at freakin all! The blob? Is that a footprint? Please provide the proof for that because I claim it looks nothing like a footprint.

Plus I also claim that by presenting this useless information in court the prosecution is simply clogging the court with pointless and prejudicial non-evidence so as to create an illusion of having a actual case.

What do I consider when making this claim? First is the fact that no reasonable amount of reference samples (not even all residents of the cottage top floor in fact) were bothered to be taken by these sloppy corrupt cops.

Now add the fact that the prosecutor doesn't even hesitate to consider that this may be a sign of a severe bias error and yet who stupidly plows on ahead with this non-evidence is sign enough of a judiciary out of control and with no rules or sanctions that would cause this rogue prosecution to bother with following any rules anyway.

Garofano the so called expert (General or Emperor by now certainly) hailed by Mignini himself... called the luminol work sloppy and incorrect in his book Darkness Descending. And yet...

Migninis defender comes here and tries to make a cake with pigs crap. He paints Mignini up with lip stick and bakes a cake about luminol with the stuff that comes out from the pigs butt and when we switch on the lights we see Mignini and someone holding a pot to his butt.

This is called satire Y/M but with your theater background I am quite certain you are familiar with the concept.

Why did your police and prosecutor who led them fail to take a reasonable number of reference sample footprints? Why did they not even bother to check all the current residents? Can you provide us with Filomena or Laura samples? Heck how about MK sample? Do you even have that? I dont think so.

You want us to believe honest police and prosecutor work but every single piece of evidence shown by your side is surrounded by some sort of fundamental error or even gross mistakes such as burning up 4 computers and yet still wishing to use computer data against the defendants anyway...
Even an idiot could understand the poison well this drink you offer comes from. And still in all it absurdity your side never hesitates to forge on ahead with this shallow baseless or at least severally compromised contention.

Shameless, corrupt, liars. Nothing more. Not clever at all in fact...merely transparent foolish trash. The prosecution is lucky that no competent defense lawyers were ever hired by the defendants. Someone not afraid to put on a actual real hard fought defense of their clients...perhaps that concept is impossible in Italy...it appears so.
 
No. Mignini - summed up very briefly - said that about all things - those most unusual, senseless, improbable or strange - simply should never be ruled out [I]pre-emptively[/I], in advance; as well, they should not even be considered as credible investigation tracks based on speculations, just because an enthusiast investigator may fall in the mistake of believeing he is after something deep, strange or peculiar.

But "those [things] most unusual, senseless, improbable or strange" CAN and SHOULD be "ruled out" when no material evidence of them is ever found, thus indicating that these "[things] most unusual, senseless, improbable or strange" only ever existed in Mignini's head. Right?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Back
Top Bottom