Split Thread Does compulsory schooling equate to slavery? (Split from: "Liberal Fallacies" thread)

[Border Reiver]

Repeal child labor laws and minimum wage laws and children could get this experience. Currently, we teach them to be useless for 12 years and expect that they acquire salable skills and work habits overnight when they graduate or turn 18 (whichever comes last).

You've claimed to have been a teacher - when so employed did you:

A. Give challenging work assignments with a due date;
B. Confirm that the answers provided, or the style of work done, corresponded with the desired outcome;
C. Give positive feedback where warranted; and
D. Provide regular assessments on their progress?

If so, they are developing work habits!

Let's look at some of the common jobs done by children during the 19th century around the time before the advent of child labour laws:

A. Hauling coal in a mine;
B. Cleaning moving machinery in a factory;
C. Picking up "pure" (dog crap) for sale to tanners;
D. Drummer or bugler in the Army;
E. Picking apart old ships cables;
F. Chimney sweeps;
G. Link boy;
H. Other no skill jobs.

 

[Malcolm Kirkpatrick]

Ah yes, child labor and no minimum wage, because it worked so well before.

Compared to what? Inevitably somebody or some body will determine for each child how that child will spend the time between age zero and age 18. Why suppose that the goons with the guns (the government) will make better decisions (from any point of view but their own) regarding the investment of children's time?

 

[Malcolm Kirkpatrick]

I read part of page 1. Then I read part of page 11. Then part of page 21. Then page 31. And then part of this page-- the last-- page 41.

This is easily one of the worst threads I have ever read. Ever. In my entire life. Could easily be the worst. Unless my sampled readings were completely anomalous, this is just 41 pages of Malcolm posting terrible, horrible arguments that then get completely trashed by assorted posters. 41 pages of Malcolm's **** posts getting tron apart. 41 pages of **** posts getting **** on. 41 pages of ******** on ****. 41 pages of ****. 41. ****.

I guess a lot of NEA members hang out on JREF.

 

[bruto]

Compared to what? Inevitably somebody or some body will determine for each child how that child will spend the time between age zero and age 18. Why suppose that the goons with the guns (the government) will make better decisions (from any point of view but their own) regarding the investment of children's time?

I was in the process of a longer answer, but then I realized that it's hopeless. I seem to be arguing with someone who thinks children sent down in coal mines and maimed by textile machinery for penny wages were better off than the battered slaves who must sit at a desk and learn tedious stuff like history. To hell with it.

I guess a lot of NEA members hang out on JREF.

I think that statement, regardless of any other, pretty much sums up how and why this thread is hopelessly remote from reality.

 

[RandFan]

Our discussion concerns the effects of policy, not the meaning of words.

Says the person who continually harps on my use of the word "school" and keeps making the distinction between "school" and education.

At the end of the day you have yet to show that state run compulsory education is not a public good. While I've shown again and again that there is both a scientific rationale for school, the data supports that rationale. Every nation high in health and or well being has public "school" or public "education". Paid for by the citizens and mandated by the state. You've never counted the data nor have you countered the science.

 

[RandFan]

Proof of education: the actuary exams, the California bar exam, the Foreign Service exam. Proof of competence: musical performance, athletic performance, successful work history, the LA City welding test. Proof of school attendance: a meaningless transcript from any of the cartel's wretched schools. If I were to hire a masonry contractor, I'd look at his firm's work record, not the transcripts of his employees.
Transcripts are signals. At one time a high school transcript meant more than that the holder warmed a seat for 12 years. Nowadays, that's all it attests.

It's not about what "YOU" would do. It's about what is. Private enterprise seeks people who have had schooling over those who haven't that's a fact of life whether you like it or not.

 

[Craig4]

For, the record, I am so not going to drive across a self taught engineer's bridge.

 

[jimbob]

For, the record, I am so not going to drive across a self taught engineer's bridge.

Nominated

 

[RandFan]

Proof of education: the actuary exams, the California bar exam, the Foreign Service exam. Proof of competence: musical performance, athletic performance, successful work history, the LA City welding test. Proof of school attendance: a meaningless transcript from any of the cartel's wretched schools. If I were to hire a masonry contractor, I'd look at his firm's work record, not the transcripts of his employees.
Transcripts are signals. At one time a high school transcript meant more than that the holder warmed a seat for 12 years. Nowadays, that's all it attests.

Currently, an education, typically from a state run school is necessary to get non-menial work. It is vitally important.

 

[RandFan]

Again, this discussion concerns policy (compulsory attendance laws, tax support of school, policies which reserve to schools operated by dues-paying members of the NEA/AFT/AFSCME cartel an exclusive position in receipt of the taxpayers' age 6-18 education subsidy, minimum wage laws, and child labor laws)

And at the end of the day, nations highest in economic freedom, HDI and the Happiness index have compulsory state run eduction. And there is still a robust scientific model that predicts these nations will be highest in overall health, wealth and well being. And that is what we see.

You have an idea. One that has never been demonstrated to work and is entirely lacking in scientific theory.

 

[RandFan]

I guess a lot of NEA members hang out on JREF.

Actually it's skeptics and critical thinkers. Go to any of the conspiracy threads and you can find the exact same accusations for government shills or Illuminati shills or whatever.

In the end your argument is ad hominem. You are attacking the individual and not the argument.

 

[Malcolm Kirkpatrick]

In the end your argument is ad hominem. You are attacking the individual and not the argument.

What goes around...
Did anyone see an argument in Turtle's post?

 

[Malcolm Kirkpatrick]

Compared to what? Inevitably somebody or some body will determine for each child how that child will spend the time between age zero and age 18. Why suppose that the goons with the guns (the government) will make better decisions (from any point of view but their own) regarding the investment of children's time?

I was in the process of a longer answer, but then I realized that it's hopeless. I seem to be arguing with someone who thinks children sent down in coal mines and maimed by textile machinery for penny wages were better off than the battered slaves who must sit at a desk and learn tedious stuff like history.

You're arguing with someone who accepts the principle of revealed preference, that people select from the options available to them the most attractive. The options available to children in 18th and early 19th century Britain and the US included factory labor, field labor, weaving, rag picking, etc. They did not include unicorn riding lessons at Club Med. You do not make people better off by depriving them of options.

 

[Malcolm Kirkpatrick]

For, the record, I am so not going to drive across a self taught engineer's bridge.

How do you know that you haven't already?

 

[Border Reiver]

You're arguing with someone who accepts the principle of revealed preference, that people select from the options available to them the most attractive. The options available to children in 18th and early 19th century Britain and the US included factory labor, field labor, weaving, rag picking, etc. They did not include unicorn riding lessons at Club Med. You do not make people better off by depriving them of options.

So, why are you seemingly intent on depriving poor people of options?

 

[Malcolm Kirkpatrick]

And at the end of the day, nations highest in economic freedom, HDI and the Happiness index have compulsory state run eduction.

And deaths from Alzheimers.
The use of HDI is self-referential, since HDI, like GDP, counts State expenditures on "education" as a factor. We agree that economic freedom (and other types of freedom) enhance wellbeing. I disagree with the conclusion that the education industry is an exception.

And there is still a robust scientific model that predicts these nations will be highest in overall health, wealth and well being. And that is what we see.
You have an idea. One that has never been demonstrated to work and is entirely lacking in scientific theory.

Flat false. No "robust scientific model" implies that State control of education enhances aggregate social welfare. Where is this model? Don't just wave your hands and say "the periodic table" or "reciprocal altruism".
You mean this?...

...

1. Evolution in general, sociobiology more specifically, altruism and game theory specifically. We are in fact an evolved social species. Reciprocal altruism holds that social species, like humans are successful because we as individuals are willing to temporarily give up some individual fitness for the over all fitness of the group. Animals from ants to antelope have been among the most successful of species because of this genetic trait.
2. How about you follow my links? I've posted them over and over and over and over. What good is it for me to post the data if you refuse to look at it. Index of Economic Freedom Human Development Index.
3. Your retort is similar to theists and creationists. The problem you have is that the data fits the scientific model and fulfills the predictions made by the model. In short, the model predicts that nations highest in economic freedom and or human development will be those nations that have generous social programs. What does YOUR theory predict? Where exactly is the data to support your model.
4. The problem is that your "explanation" is just ad hoc. It is a just so story. It's simply a rationalization to justify your interpretation. I don't simply interpret the data. The data supports the predictions made by the scientific theory. What is your theory and why aren't libertarian\laissez-faire capitalism\anarcho-capitalistic, etc, nations even on such indexes? Why have the failed so utterly?

How does the theory of reciprocal altruism imply that society gains when the largest dealer in interpersonal violence in your locality (i.e., the government) takes children from parents and turns them over to strangers? Humans rob, murder, and rape. Governments have inflicted mass famine (Ukraine, China, Uganda) and forced labor (Soviet Union, China, North Korea, Cuba). Does the theory of reciprocal altruism predict this? If not, then it's seriously incomplete. If it does, then we are back to the basic argument over policy: is the current US sub-adult education policy altruism or predation?

[*]In a representative democracy the government is a representation of society.

That's what they teach in government schools. "Representation" is altogether too mystical for this to mean anything to me. What is the representative size of shoe we all should wear?

 

[Mister Earl]

Have you proven that compulsory schooling equals slavery?
Have you proven this is a liberal fallacy?

/whole thread tl;dr

 

[Malcolm Kirkpatrick]

So, why are you seemingly intent on depriving poor people of options?

This calls for an attempt at mindreading. Why does my argument "seem" to the cartel's defenders to deprive the poor of options? I have said repeatedly that, while I believe that society would gain from a laissez faire education policy by the State, that that's not my recommendation. I support most expansions of parents' and children's education options: tuition vouchers, charter schools, tuition tax credits, GED at any age. My preferred policy is Parent Performance Contracting.
Would a policy of laissez faire have maximized options at the time of the initiation of compulsory school attendance policies? That's a judgment call, but I expect so. The State cannot subsidize education without an operational definition of "education". The State cannot operate schools without an operational definition of "schools". Students, parents, real classroom teachers, and taxpayers are then bound by the State's definition. Because individual children's interests and abilities vary enormously, the education industry is a very unlikely candidate for State subsidization of operation. Interest-group politics and not some vague "public good" will determine the official definition of "education" and "school".

 

[Mister Earl]

The only interest group looking to interfere with the public education system are the theocrats who are trying to force in religious indoctrination in the hopes it'll help flagging pew numbers. Nobody else has an agenda regarding the public education system. Have you read the wedge document from the Discovery Institute?

 

[RandFan]

What goes around...

Tu quoque doesn't change anything.