Continuation Part Six: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[acbytesla]

A blonde and a brunette are discussing their sexual encounters and the brunette comments that she recently had sex with a Bazillion. You slut states the blonde...how many is that?

Very good.

 

[RandyN]

There may not be a more dishonest display of Machiaveilli's arguments than this bit of nonsense about the Luminol footprints.

1. It is not intellectually honest to come to the conclusion that the reaction is due to blood because of the negative TMB tests and lack of confirmatory tests.

2. And even if the reaction was from blood from the murder there is no reason to believe that it was anything other than Amanda the next morning stepping into residue left over from Rudy.

And yet this does not cause a pause in Machs argument...or even in the legal ramblings of the Italian judiciary. Just keep repeating stupid unsubstantiated claims over and over in spite of the expert world opinion that you screwed up or purposely created corrupt false findings and you failed to do anything like proper documented testing like the rest of the world would do and you get to keep making stupid comments like Mach continues to do...and not just Mach but even the idiots of the Italian SC.

He insists that you prove what made the prints. And he refuses to do the same after it was proved that blood is impossible. PS...no DNA means NO BLOOD... or can you alter the reality of that too Mach?

 

[RandyN]

What's the pro-guilt lobby's answer to this? If Knox and Sollecito cleaned up their footprints, while being extremely careful for no reason I can understand to leave Guede's undisturbed, why are the Luminol footprints whole and intact?

PG lobby answer? Crickets chirping.

 

[RandyN]

Very good.

Brazilian!!!!!!!

 

[acbytesla]

What's the pro-guilt lobby's answer to this? If Knox and Sollecito cleaned up their footprints, while being extremely careful for no reason I can understand to leave Guede's undisturbed, why are the Luminol footprints whole and intact?

Precisely. The Luminol exposed footprints are clear footprints. And Rudy's foot prints are actually clear to the naked eye. The PGP argues that Amanda and Raffaele spent the evening cleaning up their own footprints and other signs that they were involved in the murder.

BUT THAT IS IMPOSSIBLE. Because if they had cleaned their bloody footprints from the floor, there wouldn't have been clear Luminol footprints. THERE WOULD BE STREAKS!!!!

 

[RandyN]

How did police, prosecutors and "journalists" get such an absurd idee fixe? What drugs were they taking when they concocted this nonsense?

Their version of events sounds, frankly, not like a plausible murder scenario but like the prosecutor's wet dream about good-looking foreign college girls and their boyfriends. Where did he get this stuff about them playing drug-fueled sex games from, a movie? Some Law and Order: SVU episodes aren't as filled with urban legends and cheap luridness as the prosecutor's "theory".

The poor woman was killed in an ordinary, standard, basic bungled robbery. By a guy who had a history of robbery attempts. That's it. Period, end of the story. A basic overview of the basic facts would reveal as much. Anything about her being killed because she refused to participate in an S & M orgy is just some horny old man's imagination gone wild.

That a 20-year-old girl spent 4 years in prison in a foreign country just for being in the wrong place at the wrong time and might go back for more is an appalling miscarriage of justice. It would make me afraid to let any daughter of mine out of my sight. And the poor kid. He was just 23 and spent many months in solitary confinement and then many years in a maximum security prison with serial killers, mobsters and rapists, just for barely dating a person who was in the wrong place at the wrong time. Unimaginable. If it were my son, I would have gone insane.

You must remember that Mignini had more than a year to make up a case even before he had to file charges. His little pea brain is the same one responsible for the Narducci insanity. If you need a good laugh or cry perhaps then read what you can find about Migninis ideas about Narduccis double body swap that involved no less than 20 members of family and friends...A case so insane that the judge was forced to abandon the 90 day rule to write a motivation report that detailed why he found all the 20 plus innocent. Instead it took him a year and one thousand pages plus...is War and Peace even this long?

Mignini is obviously a nut case. His baseless assertions in court are as shameless as they are unfounded. And yet the Italian judiciary have clearly circled the wagons around his craziness. If they had hoped to keep it hidden then they were naive and foolish...because now he has made them all look like idiots.

The Italian SC cant make it past the first page of their motivation report to annul the appeal acquittal without stating a gross lie!

This front page lists them all...even the secretary as Doctors. Perhaps they are all doctors...but I bet it is more likely that they are actually self important liars who would say anything to make themselves seem more legitimate. They are not Doctors and therefore they are liars. The real world understands what it means when people overstate their qualifications. That they lie. Silly to do this...why do it?

They do not understand what is evident to everyone else. That is... putting lipstick on a pig fails to help the pigs reputation in the least. The ISC are pigs with bright red lips...nothing more.

I once thought that Massei would go down in history as the dumbest judicial document ever created. Last night I read the translation of the ISC motivation...and now must place Massei at second dumbest. Not because I think AK or RS are innocent...and I do, but because of the sheer lack of logic and facts and baseless conclusions used by supposedly educated people is stunning in its lack of honest intellectual knowledge. Its as if a bunch of teenagers got together to argue a case against why their parents are wrong to forbid them to drink and drive and text all at the same time...you just cant get past the stupid...and they say that you just cant fix stupid...


I would love to hear a real lawyer argue against these baseless speculations in a trial of the Italian judiciary against the case for a railroaded unfair trial against AK and RS. Perhaps we will be so lucky in a appeal case against extradition of AK to Italy if found guilty once more. No one can believe the audacity of Italian courts to publicly depart from law and logic. A judiciary apparently satisfied and able to ignore police corruption, prosecutor abuse of office and lies and failing to provide the most basic of legal protections already written into their laws...it is as if there are some sort of pretend laws that they actually don't even bother with except to drone on about forever in order to hypnotize the defense into some kind of blind speechless stupor.

 

[acbytesla]

You must remember that Mignini had more than a year to make up a case even before he had to file charges. His little pea brain is the same one responsible for the Narducci insanity. If you need a good laugh or cry perhaps then read what you can find about Migninis ideas about Narduccis double body swap that involved no less than 20 members of family and friends...A case so insane that the judge was forced to abandon the 90 day rule to write a motivation report that detailed why he found all the 20 plus innocent. Instead it took him a year and one thousand pages plus...is War and Peace even this long?

Mignini is obviously a nut case. His baseless assertions in court are as shameless as they are unfounded. And yet the Italian judiciary have clearly circled the wagons around his craziness. If they had hoped to keep it hidden then they were naive and foolish...because now he has made them all look like idiots.

The Italian SC cant make it past the first page of their motivation report to annul the appeal acquittal without stating a gross lie!

This front page lists them all...even the secretary as Doctors. Perhaps they are all doctors...but I bet it is more likely that they are actually self important liars who would say anything to make themselves seem more legitimate. They are not Doctors and therefore they are liars. The real world understands what it means when people overstate their qualifications. That they lie. Silly to do this...why do it?

They do not understand what is evident to everyone else. That is putting lipstick on a pig fails to help the pigs reputation in the least. The ISC are pigs with bright red lips...nothing more.

I once thought that Massei would go down in history as the dumbest judicial document ever created. Last night I read the translation of the ISC motivation...and now must place Massei at second dumbest. Not because I think AK or RS are innocent...and I do, but because of the sheer lack of logic and facts and baseless conclusions used by supposedly educated people is stunning in its lack of honest intellectual knowledge. Its as if a bunch of teenagers got together to argue a case against why their parents are wrong to forbid them to drink and drive and text all at the same time...you just cant get past the stupid...and they said that you just cant fix stupid either...


I would love to hear a real lawyer argue against these baseless speculations in a trial of the Italian judiciary against the case for a railroaded unfair trial against AK and RS. Perhaps we will be so lucky in a appeal case against extradition of AK to Italy if found guilty once more. No one can believe the audacity of Italian courts to publicly depart from law and logic. A judiciary apparently satisfied and able to ignore police corruption, prosecutor abuse of office and lies and failing to provide the most basic of legal protections already written into their laws...it is as if there is some sort of pretend laws that actually don't even bother with except to drone on about forever in order to hypnotize the defense into some kind of blind speechless stupor.

This case pisses me off every step of the way. And the fact that someone as smart as Machiavelli makes these absurd arguments just fuels the fire. There is absolutely NO LOGIC to this prosecution. Every piece of evidence points away from Amanda and Raffaele. Yet the stupid Italian process goes on and and on. How is it that one of the greatest civilizations in World History has decayed to the point of such absurdity?

 

[Planigale]

The discussion regarding concentrations are slightly misleading because we are not dealing with liquids, but dried residue. Clearly from the pictures the quantity of dried residue (e.g. mcg / sq cm) varies - different brightness of fluorescence. We have to believe that every time one of these footprints was sampled the techs managed to just get too little to get a positive TMB result, and this was consistent despite the differing level of deposition! I don't think you could do this if you tried. Especially as it was testified this was a strong fluorescence reaction. The only logical conclusion is that what was fluorescing was not blood, because it was repeatedly tested (each footprint) and repeatedly was negative.

 

[Antony]

I got banned from Wikipedia for trying to correct this falsehood, just before Jimbo Wales stepped in to curb the guilter editors who controlled the article about Meredith Kercher.

What was the conclusion of the Wikipedia episode? I heard that the article was rewritten by an author appointed by Jimbo Wales, but were all of the bans rescinded? Did you get your Wikipedia rights back?

I remember that the PGP were outraged at losing control of the Wikipedia page, and accused JW of being motivated by the wish to have sex with Amanda after her release. It was a frequent accusation used against supporters of the 2 students - one of the more bizarre claims that were floating around.

 

[LondonJohn]

What's the pro-guilt lobby's answer to this? If Knox and Sollecito cleaned up their footprints, while being extremely careful for no reason I can understand to leave Guede's undisturbed, why are the Luminol footprints whole and intact?

Exactly. The Luminol testing - even when it was overapplied and overexposed by the "crack" forensics goons - revealed zero evidence of the sort of wiping or smearing that's virtually guaranteed if someone has cleaned up blood with a rag, sponge or mop.

So we're left with an intriguing scenario if we want to claim that Knox and Sollecito conducted some sort of post-crime clean-up of the scene: we need to suppose that they cleaned parts of the floor so extraordinarily thoroughly that they left absolutely no trace of smearing by removing absolutely all of the blood; but at the same time, they managed to leave certain parts of the floor - including all the parts where Guede's prints were left - totally intact.

Additionally, as you say, the amorphous blobs that the prosecutors claim are Knox's/Sollecito's footprints on the tiles would necessarily not have been subjected to any sort of clean-up, otherwise they wouldn't be amorphous blobs any longer, but rather there would be smears around the area where the blobs once stood.

The whole thing is preposterous. There was no post-murder clean-up - other than the obvious wiping up of blood (done by Guede in my opinion) in Meredith's room itself, and an obvious exercise in washing away blood done in the small bathroom (again, done by Guede in my opinion). The hallway floor was manifestly never subjected to any post-murder clean-up.

Extraordinary as it may seem, Massei actually ruled the following as evidence of a clean-up in the hallway: 1) there was a bloody partial footprint on the bathroom mat; 2) this print "must have" been made by stepping in the pooled blood in Meredith's room; 3) therefore, there should have been other bloody footprints in between Meredith's room and the bathroom mat; there were no such bloody footprints present; ergo, somebody cleaned up these intermediate bloody footprints in the hallway and the entrance of the small bathroom.

Massei's court obviously doesn't have the capacity to consider an alternative explanation that is not only more plausible (given the total lack of forensic evidence of a clean-up of the hallway floor), but is actually more logical given that the bathmat print was clearly made in dilute blood/water. This alternative explanation is that whoever made the print (Guede IMO, but let's park that for now) got blood on the sole of his foot when he washed off blood from his clothing or skin - probably in the shower - then stepped off onto the bathmat. In this scenario, therefore, the blood was transported from Meredith's room to the small bathroom on clothing or skin (hands/arms etc), meaning there would have been no bloody footprints on the tiling. Which is exactly what was found....

(Incidentally, Knox took a shower the morning after the murder, and if she used surfectant products such as soap/shampoo, and if the shower lasted (say) five minutes, then the combination of surfectant plus a high volume of water flow would have virtually guaranteed that any residual dilute blood in the shower tray from Guede's clean-up the previous night would have been washed away. That's why no blood trace was found within the shower stall.)

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

What was the conclusion of the Wikipedia episode? I heard that the article was rewritten by an author appointed by Jimbo Wales, but were all of the bans rescinded? Did you get your Wikipedia rights back?

I remember that the PGP were outraged at losing control of the Wikipedia page, and accused JW of being motivated by the wish to have sex with Amanda after her release. It was a frequent accusation used against supporters of the 2 students - one of the more bizarre claims that were floating around.

They did not rescind the block. The whole thing was ridiculous. I never tried to edit the article. I participated in the discussion about the article, and I pointed out that the information about Raffaele calling the police after they arrived was no longer current. They asked for a published source, so I provided one from an Italian news outlet. Their response was that the source was someone expressing his own opinion about a possible argument that could be made in court, rather than what it obviously was, which was an article about an actual court hearing, complete with Bongiorno's Powerpoint slides.

I have no appetite for participation in any forum controlled by people who resort to that degree of sophistry and intellectual dishonesty. I walked away. But others were more persistent, Jimbo Wales stepped in with a trusted editor, and the article got cleaned up.

And of course the guilters responded with ad hominem attacks on Wales. That is how they respond to anyone who challenges their cult doctrine.

 

[Supernaut]

A blonde and a brunette are discussing their sexual encounters and the brunette comments that she recently had sex with a Brazilian. You slut states the blonde...how many is that?

LoL. Good gag - took me a couple of seconds .......

 

[Supernaut]

Brazilian!!!!!!!

Wouldn't that be 'brazillian'?

 

[Machiavelli]

Thanks for coming online Mach to demonstrate what you don't know.

Although Luminol is more sensitive than TMB, TMB can detect blood that has been diluted up to 10,000-fold.

Arguing that negative TMB results in the Kercher case can be ascribed to this difference in sensitivity is absurd. From the View from Wilmington

False negatives on TMB tests are documented by literature. Even on stains that were revealed to luminol. This is not 'absurd', is simply documented in literature, which I had cited in the past (I actually posted twice abot it).
The 1/10:000 dilution detection is theoretical: in practice, TMB test is indirect (not on the stin but on the swab) and produces a further dlution within the swab itself; we can reasonably speculate it is extremely unlikely that TMB would detect a latent stain above a magnitude of a 1:1000 dilution, but anyway calculation would make little sence since the swab reacts to the absolute amount that it absorbes, not to a concentration.

 

[Kaosium]

False negatives on TMB tests are documented by literature. Even on stains that were revealed to luminol. This is not 'absurd', is simply documented in literature, which I had cited in the past (I actually posted twice abot it).
The 1/10:000 dilution detection is theoretical: in practice, TMB test is indirect (not on the stin but on the swab) and produces a further dlution within the swab itself; we can reasonably speculate it is extremely unlikely that TMB would detect a latent stain above a magnitude of a 1:1000 dilution, but anyway calculation would make little sence since the swab reacts to the absolute amount that it absorbes, not to a concentration.

Even were that the case, there's nothing incriminating about highly (extremely) diluted blood being in that hallway. The original contention was they were footprints made in pure blood, they didn't come up with this nonsense until they were caught hiding the TMB negatives.

 

[Machiavelli]

Machiavelli makes an early morning post, says nothing about Mignini and Satanic conferences.

There are no "Satanic conferences", and there is nothing to say beyond what Mignini and the other guests said, which apparently you didn't listen to.

"Delitti & Misteri" is a mainstream magazine about crime and justice, not about Satanism. The guests even basically agreed that Satanism doesn't exist (they said that there was actually no satanic sect not even in the "Bestie di Satana" murders case).
The conference and speakers had a rationalist approach under all points of views.

 

[Machiavelli]

Even were that the case, there's nothing incriminating about highly (extremely) diluted blood being in that hallway. The original contention was they were footprints made in pure blood, they didn't come up with this nonsense until they were caught hiding the TMB negatives.

Another lie you are going on repeating. The truth: they (Stefanoni?) were never "caught". The TMB tests were revealed by the prosecution themselves.
Even the very existence of the SAL was declared by Comodi first, before anyone ever "caught" her. She was the first one who talked about SALs and laboratory documentation before Massei, not the defence.
Had they wanted to hide the SALs, they would have gone on hiding them, destroy them (like the Carabinieri do with their laboratory items) or would have provided a manifactured SAL.
Instead, when requested, they gave information without objecting.
So, they were not "caught". They disclosed information (which the defence could have already had, if their experts accessed the laboratories during the investigation), then they disclosed further information on request.
Thus, they never hid anything.
I understand you don't like this wording.
But it's the truth.

There isn't any 'original contention' and anyway it doesn't matter: there is just a piece of evidence, a series of bare foot shaped luminol stains, which are logically attributable only to stepping in diluted blood after a clean up of the murder scene. While there is no alternative substance nor alternative scenario proposed to explain them.
And this, is absolutely not nonsense. It's logic.

If you believe there is nothing incriminating in diluted blood being in that hallway in that set of prints, in my opinion your contention is something logically impossible to sustain. There isn't a plausible, or probable, alternative explanation for having that specific set of diluted footrpints produced by a totally innocent cause.

 

[Skind]

False negatives on TMB tests are documented by literature. Even on stains that were revealed to luminol. This is not 'absurd', is simply documented in literature, which I had cited in the past (I actually posted twice abot it).

And, as was pointed out to you earlier, those false negatives are related to concentration, not random error.

As has been pointed out to you multiple times, intensity of luminol reaction is related to concentration.

The forensic team purportedly reported a very intense reaction that you could supposedly tell was blood just by the hue and brightness. In other words, the concentraion would be very high - far too high to get a false negative on a TMB test.

Thus, if it fails a TMB test, it cannot be blood, but must be some other substance that causes a luminol reaction - or the police fraudulently documented an intense reaction.

The TMB test itself does not say it isn't blood. That the luminol test is incompatible with the TMB test if it was blood is why we can exclude blood. You simply cannot get both the reported intensity of the luminol reaction and a false negative on the TMB test.

End of.

 

[Skind]

Another lie you are going on repeating. The truth: they (Stefanoni?) were never "caught". The TMB tests were revealed by the prosecution themselves.

....after being caught hiding them by the defence. The prosecution did not reveal them off their own backs.

Even the very existence of the SAL was declared by Comodi first, before anyone ever "caught" her. She was the first one who talked about SALs and laboratory documentation before Massei, not the defence.
Had they wanted to hide the SALs, they would have gone on hiding them, destroy them (like the Carabinieri do with their laboratory items) or would have provided a manifactured SAL.

SAL's are known parts of the documentation, whether Comodi revealed them first is irrelevant, we are talking about providing them to the defence. We know that Stefanoni and the prosecution were more than objecting to the defence having them - because the defence would not need to have asked for the documentation in the recent appeal if they already had them!

Instead, when requested, they gave information without objecting.

Information that should have been provided as professional courtesy, irregardless of whether the defence attended the lab tests or not.

Deliberately not giving people information you must know they would need is a from of hiding by omitting to tell people you have it.

You simply don't get this.

 

[LondonJohn]

....after being caught hiding them by the defence. The prosecution did not reveal them off their own backs.

In dear old Machiavelli's world, the following exchange counts as the negative TMB results being "revealed by the prosecution themselves" (I paraphrase......):

Prosecution: "And that's that on the patches in the hallway. They glowed under Luminol and therefore they're blood. Casa chiuso."

Defence: "Umm, didn't the police forensic team do any TMB testing on these patches to give a better presumptive test for blood?"

Prosecution: "Err....... TMB you say? Urmmmmmm.... letttttt meeeeee checkkkkkk."

Defence: "Yes, I think you'd better do that".

Prosecution: "Oh, erm..... yes, they DID do TMB tests on those patches."

Defence: "OK. And what did those tests show?"

Prosecution: "Hmmmm.... let me see. What did they show?"

Defence: "Hurry up please. It can't be that hard to check the TMB test results."

Prosecution: "It ummmm shows *cough* negative for blood" (said quickly, in small voice)

Defence: "Sorry, I didn't hear that. What was that?"

Prosecution: "Ummmm.... those tests were negative for blood."

Defence: "Thank you."