Continuation Part Six: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[Charlie Wilkes]

When did these murders happen? 1597?

ETA: Surprise! They're recent. And if you look at the wiki, you get this gem:

The crimes occurred against the background of growing concern in Italy that Satanism and the occult are becoming an attraction to the Italian youth. In February 2005, a Roman Catholic university connected to the Vatican began offering a two-month course on diabolical possession and exorcism for priests and seminarians. In reaction to the crimes priest Don Aldo Buonaito called for death metal to be banned, saying "If music makes itself an instrument of nefarious deeds and death, it should be stopped."[2] In light of the revelations from the Beasts of Satan investigation and trial, and growing public concern, the Italian police intend to create a special unit focusing on new religious sects, particularly Satanists and other violent ritualistic groups. It would coordinate nationwide investigations into potentially dangerous new religious movements, and is planned to include psychologists and a priest who is an expert on the occult.[5]

LOL.

This sounds like the satanic panic in the US, back in the 1980s. Americans proved no less credulous than Italians, and some still are.

In the UK, two men were recently convicted in a satanic ritual abuse case that I am convinced was a sham, so it's still a going concern in that part of the world.

It's an interesting subject. I have collected lots of information about it.

 

[davefoc]

It is indeed intellectually honest to assume that a negative TMB test does not have any logical power to rule out blood, and to point at another substance - because contrarily from Kaosums' claims, this is what scientific literature actually provides; even in this very same investigation there were sets of presumed blood stains in which some of them were negative to TMB and others were positive. And they were not even latent traces, they were visible, and ll obviously part o the same set.

...

Hi Machiavelli,
I was under the impression that TMB was a presumptive test for blood. As I understand it, that means that if the result is positive then the sample might contain blood but if it is negative the doesn't contain blood at a sufficient concentration to trigger a positive TMB reaction.

Is your claim here that there might have been blood in the samples because the concentration was too low for a positive TMB test? Is that possible if there is a positive luminal result? Even if this is theoretically possible what probative value would a negative TMB result have with regards to a trial? Wouldn't it just be a non informative result? Something that might have been blood was found but the concentration was too low to determine if it was blood or not.

You mentioned that the literature does not support Kaosum's claims. Could you cite which literature that is? I looked briefly and all I found was information about the possibility of false positives with TMB testing, false negatives were only discussed with regards to the required concentration of blood to get a positive result.

 

[EeneyMinnieMoe]

Indeed, this might account for much of the irrational hatred directed against Amanda. I once remarked on a blog that she had my admiration in this regard, wryly adding that it had taken me until well into my 30s before I made the 7th notch on the bedpost. The guilter I was engaging with said this was a sign of my depravity!

In all five years I was in college, I slept with one person. Once. Seriously, that's it. Once with one person from the age of 18 to 23. (There were a few dates but they didn't go past kissing and holding hands and the like.) So I'm also inclined to think "Seven at the age of 20? Good on you."

The people who think Amanda is some sort of demonic whore have no idea what they are talking about. Amanda's so-called "depravity" was lame and tame next to what other college kids do. Her "antics" barely scratch the surface of the real partying possible in college and study abroad programs. Barely sleeping with seven boys (four of them back home) is supposed to be sordid? That's Sodom and Gomorrah? That's not particularly nasty or weird.

The whole business with the diary was disgraceful. So she was told she had HIV and made a list to determine who it could have been that gave it to her. That's what anyone would do in that situation. That's what everyone should do. That it was confiscated from her, given to the press and used against her as some sort of "evidence"- that's the scandal. Shocking that this still goes on in our times.

 

[moije2]

Please pass this around. It is of Mr. Mignini being called up from the audience to address Satanism, at a presumed anti-Satanism conference. Whereas he does not make direct reference in his remarks about the Kercher case and Satanism, he also did not take the opportunity to dispel rumours that he'd once offered this as a motive for the crime.

[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/thum_53971526aa87b315e7.jpg[/qimg]

Sorry Bill. But to make an association between Mignini and Satanism and the Kercher murder has no basis or foundation.

I only see a picture of Amanda Knox behind him. She may be the devil, but there is no proof that he applied such thinking in the prosecution of Knox and Sollecito.

 

[Bill Williams]

Sorry Bill. But to make an association between Mignini and Satanism and the Kercher murder has no basis or foundation.

I only see a picture of Amanda Knox behind him. She may be the devil, but there is no proof that he applied such thinking in the prosecution of Knox and Sollecito.

What was I thinking!?

But look at it this way.... you can tell by looking at Mignini's eyes he's at such a conference!

 

[RoseMontague]

Sorry Bill. But to make an association between Mignini and Satanism and the Kercher murder has no basis or foundation.

I only see a picture of Amanda Knox behind him. She may be the devil, but there is no proof that he applied such thinking in the prosecution of Knox and Sollecito.

Yep, he probably was only a ten minute walk from there and wandered in looking for some wine or something. There were probably some other events taking place around there as well. Purely coincidental these people taking advantage of his celebrity status and all.

 

[moije2]

What was I thinking!?

But look at it this way.... you can tell by looking at Mignini's eyes he's at such a conference!

Actually, we may be jumping the gun on this. We have no proof that Miggy knew that the slide was projected behind him. It may very well have been slipped in by an agent of the PR folks from friends of Amanda. So let's not be so quick with our assumptions.

 

[Methos]

Actually, we may be jumping the gun on this. We have no proof that Miggy knew that the slide was projected behind him. It may very well have been slipped in by an agent of the PR folks from friends of Amanda. So let's not be so quick with our assumptions.

You're trying to be sarcastic, aren't you?
Take a look at the video, Dr Mignini is coming up from the audience, that slide-show of pictures ran for quite some time, before he took the stage...
btw here is pt. 2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b8OzwA4SpUY

 

[moije2]

You're trying to be sarcastic, aren't you?
Take a look at the video, Dr Mignini is coming up from the audience, that slide-show of pictures ran for quite some time, before he took the stage...
btw here is pt. 2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b8OzwA4SpUY

Sorry! Yes of course it was sarcasm. Couldnt resist. Bill has caught some flack in his pursuit of Satan and I broke a personal rule to not engage in silly humor.

 

[Bill Williams]

Sorry! Yes of course it was sarcasm. Couldnt resist. Bill has caught some flack in his pursuit of Satan and I broke a personal rule to not engage in silly humor.

I hear Satan is trying to disavow any connection with Mignini. It might give evil a bad name.

 

[acbytesla]

In all five years I was in college, I slept with one person. Once. Seriously, that's it. Once with one person from the age of 18 to 23. (There were a few dates but they didn't go past kissing and holding hands and the like.) So I'm also inclined to think "Seven at the age of 20? Good on you."

The people who think Amanda is some sort of demonic whore have no idea what they are talking about. Amanda's so-called "depravity" was lame and tame next to what other college kids do. Her "antics" barely scratch the surface of the real partying possible in college and study abroad programs. Barely sleeping with seven boys (four of them back home) is supposed to be sordid? That's Sodom and Gomorrah? That's not particularly nasty or weird.

The whole business with the diary was disgraceful. So she was told she had HIV and made a list to determine who it could have been that gave it to her. That's what anyone would do in that situation. That's what everyone should do. That it was confiscated from her, given to the press and used against her as some sort of "evidence"- that's the scandal. Shocking that this still goes on in our times.

I laugh about all of this, because by the time I was 23, I had had more than 30 different partners. I was very promiscuous at that age. Yet everyone thought I was this geeky guy who never got laid. You can't judge a book by its cover.

Most people's sex lives are not what people think they are. I have known the most innocent looking girls that were wild and adventurous and wild looking girls that were prudish and uptight once you get down to it.
I have known religious girls who act priggish and even condemn others for their sexual antics, really get very wild when given the opportunity. The macho guy who you think is straight as an arrow, could just as easily be as gay as a picnic basket. And the effiminate guy that you are convinced is a poof is really a ladies man who can't get enough of the girls.

There's a scene in American Pie 2 where the "expert guy" explains that when a girl says she has been with 2 guys, you can multiply that number by 3. And the "expert girl" explains to her friend that when a guy says that he has been with 3 girls, that you can divide that number by 3.

People lie about their sexual encounters. That much I'm sure of. They are more concerned about how they are viewed, than they are about the truth.

 

[moije2]

I hear Satan is trying to disavow any connection with Mignini. It might give evil a bad name.

Oh my. TOO funny!!!!

 

[EeneyMinnieMoe]

I'm a short, geeky-looking, thick glasses-wearing woman who looks like she never got laid in high school or college. Why did I look it? Cause I was it.

I did, in fact, almost never get laid. I was having zero at that age, which when multiplied by 3 gives...zero.

And I don't lie about it now (though I did at the time, to save face.)

So at least in my case, what you see is exactly what you get.

 

[Dan O.]

It appears that there is a drip mark next to what is maybe the edge of the sole. I find that interesting. Perhaps this suggests drippage coming from a pant leg, which would be consistent with the drips outside on the steps, some of which were TMB-positive, yet supposedly showed no DNA.

I have pointed out this drip and others like it before. As i recall, the shoe print here is the left. But it was the outside of the right pant leg that got the shower wash. The drip would have to be deposited on a separate trip down (or up) that hall.

For the steps out back we have an injured cat and an open window for it to come and go. I would presume the drips on the steps are from the cat which would be consistent with a visible stain and no human DNA.

The prints G and J are a separate sequence with similar appearance that could have continued outside and even down the steps if Rudy went that way. We're photos of the drips outside released?

 

[yimyammer]

There was one open purse on the desk. That would be easy to reach and check. The other purse was found on the bed. If the postal policeman can walk up there to Lift the corner of the duvet and see Meredith's wounds without steping in blood then why can't Rudy.






Filomena would have grabbed that when she went back for her laptop.

Oh, Meredith's keys!? They have never been found.

my questions didn't have an underlying motive, I was just curious if it was plausible for Rudy to re-enter the room and not track blood back out. The crime techs were there several hours later so I would expect the blood to be dried by that point whereas when Rudy had to re-enter one would think the blood would still be fresh and not dry but if the purse was within reach where Rudy could have avoided stepping in it, the that would make sense. I assume the photos bear this out?

I would think Rudy would leave the key in the lock or take it with him, so the fact that its missing seems consistent with the proposed scenario. Had the keys been found still in Meredith's purse/room, then that might punt a dent in this theory, no?

IIRC, the door was open when Amanda came home, so Rudy didn't like it upon his departure?

 

[Diocletus]

I have pointed out this drip and others like it before. As i recall, the shoe print here is the left. But it was the outside of the right pant leg that got the shower wash. The drip would have to be deposited on a separate trip down (or up) that hall.

For the steps out back we have an injured cat and an open window for it to come and go. I would presume the drips on the steps are from the cat which would be consistent with a visible stain and no human DNA.

The prints G and J are a separate sequence with similar appearance that could have continued outside and even down the steps if Rudy went that way. We're photos of the drips outside released?

The outside stair drips are shown in the video. IMO, no way are they from a cat. Also, I made a mistake earlier. Some of these spots amplified positive, albeit at a high cycle number. This means that there was human DNA in there, but Stefanoni didn't try to find out whose it was, because it was low quantity.

 

[yimyammer]

That is the 64 thousand dollar question. But in the beginning of this affair, their conclusion while still far fetched fit the evidence much better than it does right now. There was their mistake where they believed that Raffaele called the police after they arrived. There was their mistake regarding the tennis shoe prints in the murder room that they attributed to Raffaele. I think there were a few other mistakes they made wrongly connecting Amanda and Raffaele for the crime. To me, the problem wasn't the police considering Amanda and Raffaele for this crime, even though it was always far fetched. It was their failure to drop them as suspects once it became obvious that Rudy was the perpetrator.

They should have released Amanda and Raffale when they released Patrick Lumumba.

Mach, do you assert that Raf called the police after the postal police arrived?

Do Italians and the court still believe this?

I've seen this argued extensively in multiple places with PIP's saying it didn't happen and PGP's saying it did. The whole discussion gave me tired-head and I found it difficult to follow.

 

[acbytesla]

I'm a short, geeky-looking, thick glasses-wearing woman who looks like she never got laid in high school or college. Why did I look it? Cause I was it.

I did, in fact, almost never get laid. I was having zero at that age, which when multiplied by 3 gives...zero.

And I don't lie about it now (though I did at the time, to save face.)

So at least in my case, what you see is exactly what you get.

It's not a hard and fast rule by any means. In fact, people's expectations are more often right. But it's a mistake to count on them.

I was a short geeky guy too. But that never slowed me from trying to charm the pants off the girls. I struck out a lot, but every once in a while I got the bat on the ball.

 

[yimyammer]

The floor in Meredith's room wasn't covered in blood - it was almost all confined to the small area of the room under and around her body. There was plenty of clean (i.e. no blood) floor between the bedroom door and the bed. It's entirely likely that Guede went nowhere near Meredith's body when he re-entered the room to locate and take her keys. Her handbag (purse in USA lingo!) was on her bed, and that would be a logical first place to look. If that's what happened, Guede could easily have got in and out of the room withour re-treading in any blood.

And no, Meredith's keys (she had several keys on a keyring) were never found.

thx

 

[Bill Williams]

Mach, do you assert that Raf called the police after the postal police arrived?

Do Italians and the court still believe this?

I've seen this argued extensively in multiple places with PIP's saying it didn't happen and PGP's saying it did. The whole discussion gave me tired-head and I found it difficult to follow.

From Massei's report....

− 12:51:40 Raffaele Sollecito called ‚112‛ to inform the Carabinieri of the presumed theft in Romanelli’s room (duration 169 seconds; connection to Via dell’Aquila 5-Torre dell’Acquedotto sector 1 cell, which covers Via della Pergola 7)
− 12:54: a second call by Raffaele to ‚112‛ (57 sec.; connection to Piazza Lupattelli sector 7 cell)

(Page 12) - Also present were an inspector and an officer from the Postal Police of Perugia: Michele Battistelli and Fabio Marzi, who arrived a little before 1:00 pm