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Continuation Part Six: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

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Another thing. The idea, painted in the American and Italian press, that she was some sort of a drug-fiend nymphomaniac party girl couldn't have been further from the truth in retrospect. They made her sound like a near-Satanic version of Paris Hilton.

So she smoked some weed once in a while. Got drunk a few times. And slept with three people over the course of a month and a half in Italy, including Sollecito. And with him, as they had known one another for barely a week, it was a few times at most. Wow, so shocking, coming from a 20-year-old. :rolleyes:

This is supposed to be scandalous? Compared to what some people I knew in college got up to, this is boring. She was a sheltered and rather awkward nerd kid from the suburbs who loved languages and Harry Potter. It seems as if her behavior was only "edgy" in her own mind. In comparison to other people their age, Knox and Sollecito lived like a nun and a monk. If anything, the scandal might be that she didn't party more.

Don't know about that, but it sounds like Amanda, at least, had no problems relating to other people. It's easier to imagine a repressed individual being resentful of someone who played the field and doing them harm, rather than the other way around. By all accounts, Rudy Guede was notably unsuccessful with the opposite sex, so I suspect his history was less impressive than Amanda's.

Indeed, this might account for much of the irrational hatred directed against Amanda. I once remarked on a blog that she had my admiration in this regard, wryly adding that it had taken me until well into my 30s before I made the 7th notch on the bedpost. The guilter I was engaging with said this was a sign of my depravity!
 
Yes, and because of that, in the future Amanda may be remembered as an ordinary girl who got framed for a murder she didn't commit. Which would mean failure for the guilters.

To stop that from happening the guilters could 1. bribe the Italian court to find her guilty again. + 2. Make a movie based on Barbie Nadeau's angel face book. They could claim it is fiction and change some peoples name, but in a way make it obvious that the story is about Amanda and her roomate getting killed in a satanic rite.
After awhile the majority of people would forget many of the details of this case and remember it as Amanda killing Meredith in a satanic rite.
 
The floor in Meredith's room wasn't covered in blood - it was almost all confined to the small area of the room under and around her body. There was plenty of clean (i.e. no blood) floor between the bedroom door and the bed. It's entirely likely that Guede went nowhere near Meredith's body when he re-entered the room to locate and take her keys. Her handbag (purse in USA lingo!) was on her bed, and that would be a logical first place to look. If that's what happened, Guede could easily have got in and out of the room withour re-treading in any blood.

And no, Meredith's keys (she had several keys on a keyring) were never found.

Rudy alleges that he had a date with Meredith. If Meredith had willingly let Rudy into the flat why would she not leave her key in the keyhole in the front door? He would eventually be leaving, right?

If a casual male acquaintance were visiting at 9 pm it would make sense to leave the key in the keyhole to facilitate allowing him out at the end of his visit rather than to put the key back in her purse and carry her purse to her bedroom (or carry the key back to her purse if her purse were already in her bedroom). And of course the logical reason Meredith's key was not left in the front door but rather was in her purse in her bedroom is because she did NOT willingly admit Rudy.

After Rudy murdered Meredith, cleaned himself in her bathroom, returned to her bedroom, and subsequently walked out of her bedroom to the front door, Rudy discovered it was locked with no key in the inside keyhold. As London John pointed out, Rudy returned to her bedroom to locate the key to let himself out. On his second trip from her bedroom to the front door - this time with no or insufficient trace blood left on the soles of his shoes - but with her keys in hand, he turned and locked her bedroom door to delay discovery, walked to the front door, open it with Meredith's key, and exited the flat.

I believe this conforms to and explains the detected/identified footprint traces. Please let me know if it does not.
 
Pascali asked for data with respect to the DNA forensics

I have a hard time understanding this Machiavelli. How would the defense know about something like the negative TMB tests or the numerous too lows to ask for them? If Stefi hadn't "misspoke" about the quantities involved, the defense would still not know this. Do you really consider this "an approach to the truth". Is the prosecution required to turn over potentially exculpatory evidence? If not, how is that "an approach to the truth"?
Good points. Also, Pascali asked for data relating to DNA profiling in 2008.
 
Don't know about that, but it sounds like Amanda, at least, had no problems relating to other people. It's easier to imagine a repressed individual being resentful of someone who played the field and doing them harm, rather than the other way around. By all accounts, Rudy Guede was notably unsuccessful with the opposite sex, so I suspect his history was less impressive than Amanda's.

This has been repeated numerous times here and at other forums. I have never found any source for this that is reliable. Do you an account that is reliable on this subject?

Indeed, this might account for much of the irrational hatred directed against Amanda. I once remarked on a blog that she had my admiration in this regard, wryly adding that it had taken me until well into my 30s before I made the 7th notch on the bedpost. The guilter I was engaging with said this was a sign of my depravity!

It was a sign of depravity that it took you until your thirties? :p
 
A Satanism conference? LOL. Too funny. Go Spezi.

So Mignini goes to a Satanism conference, gets up and speaks and calls Knox and Solelcito "free cutthroats," and then a few days later writes a letter to the newspaper telling everyone how "at trial" he never called them "Satanists."

What a scumbag. These people are all ghastly.
 
A Satanism conference? LOL. Too funny. Go Spezi.

This video is almost an hour long with some interesting speakers, one who is Francesco Bruno. Is there available a summary of what was discussed among the various attendees, especially with regards to Bruno?
 
There may not be a more dishonest display of Machiaveilli's arguments than this bit of nonsense about the Luminol footprints.

1. It is not intellectually honest to come to the conclusion that the reaction is due to blood because of the negative TMB tests and lack of confirmatory tests.

It is indeed intellectually honest to assume that a negative TMB test does not have any logical power to rule out blood, and to point at another substance - because contrarily from Kaosums' claims, this is what scientifical literature actualy provides; even in this very same investigation there were sets of presumed blood stains in which some of them were negative to TMB and others were positive. And they were not even latent traces, they were visible, and ll obviously part o the same set.

2. And even if the reaction was from blood from the murder there is no reason to believe that it was anything other than Amanda the next morning stepping into residue left over from Rudy
.

But the prints do not all belong to Amanda. They belong to two different individuals, and one of them which belongs to a bigger foot which is compatible with Sollecito (and with the bloody bathmat print).

Moreover some of the prints are not "going" into Amanda's room. Two of them are located in the corridoor "beyond" her room, towards Romaneli's room. Why was she going into Filomena's room that morning (with another person)?
And then - third further detail - in Romanelli's room, there is another luminol stain. This one yielding a mixture of both Meredith and Knox's DNA! And the stain (yet of the same "unexplained" substance) is a room where no DNA from Knox and Meredith should never expected to be found.

And fourth, along with your ypotheses there should be a 'residual' print on the bathmat too - since she asserts she went in her room standing on the bathmat and dragging it. But there should be equally a residual watery blood layer on the shower plate, since the residual dluted blood that she picks up as she walks out of the shower must have a "source".
In fact there are residual watery blood footprints on the bathmat. But there was no residual blood in the shower.
So where sid she pick up the "residual" diluted blood?
(or maybe it means that was not "residual" at all?)

You see, I am just really amazed to see some people who draw scenarios in which person takes a shower in the victim's blood, while argueing that the person should not look like a suspect.
 
This video is almost an hour long with some interesting speakers, one who is Francesco Bruno. Is there available a summary of what was discussed among the various attendees, especially with regards to Bruno?

This is no "Satanism conference". It is a conference organized by the magazine "Delitti & Misteri", dedicated to a number about "Le Bestie di Satana" - a series of Satanic murders that actually took place in Italy.
I suppose the number also extends the topic to Satanism and other cases in a more wide sense.

It is interesting: you should listen to what Mignini actually says.
He says, among other things, that he never had experience of anly link to satanism-related things in any case over his career, except once, in one minor case (which is not the Narducci- MoF case and it is not the Meredith case).
 
I have a hard time understanding this Machiavelli. How would the defense know about something like the negative TMB tests or the numerous too lows to ask for them? If Stefi hadn't "misspoke" about the quantities involved, the defense would still not know this. Do you really consider this "an approach to the truth". Is the prosecution required to turn over potentially exculpatory evidence? If not, how is that "an approach to the truth"?

Exactly Rose. Frankly Machiavelli's perspective on this is whacked. Full disclosure means that the prosecution is required to turn over ALL EVIDENCE. Both incriminating and exculpatory. The Defense attorneys aren't clairvoyant.

"An approach to the truth" It is DISHONEST, DECEITFUL and Machiavelli should be ashamed to make such an argument.
 
After Rudy murdered Meredith, cleaned himself in her bathroom, returned to her bedroom, and subsequently walked out of her bedroom to the front door, Rudy discovered it was locked with no key in the inside keyhold. As London John pointed out, Rudy returned to her bedroom to locate the key to let himself out. On his second trip from her bedroom to the front door - this time with no or insufficient trace blood left on the soles of his shoes - but with her keys in hand, he turned and locked her bedroom door to delay discovery, walked to the front door, open it with Meredith's key, and exited the flat.

I believe this conforms to and explains the detected/identified footprint traces. Please let me know if it does not.


You could have cut and pasted that from my earlier posts. That's the basic sequence that can be constructed from the evidence. There are other factors such as the fact that two sets of keys were taken. Rudy could identify which set was Meredith's by trying the room key in her bedroom door lock where he had plenty of light. Steping out and locking the door would then be an automatic action even if he wasn't thinking about delaying discovery of the murder.
 
I suppose the number also extends the topic to Satanism and other cases in a more wide sense.

So it was a Satanism conference.

BTW, what is Mignini doing going to all of these ridiculous conferences: a conference on Satanism and a conference on restoring the throne to some dead king.

Wouldn't his time be better used going to conferences on how not to violate people's rights and screw up investigations?
 
dedicated to a number about "Le Bestie di Satana" - a series of Satanic murders that actually took place in Italy.

When did these murders happen? 1597?

ETA: Surprise! They're recent. And if you look at the wiki, you get this gem:

The crimes occurred against the background of growing concern in Italy that Satanism and the occult are becoming an attraction to the Italian youth. In February 2005, a Roman Catholic university connected to the Vatican began offering a two-month course on diabolical possession and exorcism for priests and seminarians. In reaction to the crimes priest Don Aldo Buonaito called for death metal to be banned, saying "If music makes itself an instrument of nefarious deeds and death, it should be stopped."[2] In light of the revelations from the Beasts of Satan investigation and trial, and growing public concern, the Italian police intend to create a special unit focusing on new religious sects, particularly Satanists and other violent ritualistic groups. It would coordinate nationwide investigations into potentially dangerous new religious movements, and is planned to include psychologists and a priest who is an expert on the occult.[5]

LOL.
 
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If "a negative TMB test does not have any logical power to rule out blood" then why perform the test? Such is the logic of the stupid with a BS in BS.
 
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This is no "Satanism conference". It is a conference organized by the magazine "Delitti & Misteri", dedicated to a number about "Le Bestie di Satana" - a series of Satanic murders that actually took place in Italy.
I suppose the number also extends the topic to Satanism and other cases in a more wide sense.

It is interesting: you should listen to what Mignini actually says.
He says, among other things, that he never had experience of anly link to satanism-related things in any case over his career, except once, in one minor case (which is not the Narducci- MoF case and it is not the Meredith case).

LOL.

Machiavelli.... who are we going to believe? You or our lying eyes?

Can you comment on this further comment from an independent journalist, an Italian speaker who says this about Mignini in the video....

Mignini complimented the "excellent magazine" then he explained that a prosecutor can be carried away by enthusiasm and start interpret a crime with satanism when there's no satanism at all. Interesting, how does he know so well?

C'mon Machiavelli.... even you have to admit the optics of this looks bad?

Or is there some quirk of Italian law that says that attending a conference on Satanism means that it is, in fact, not a conference on Satanism?
 
I'm getting a notion why it is in Oct 2013 Machiavelli is trying to draw a line in the sand, saying that Mignini never, ever claimed that the Kercher murder was a result of a Satanic Rite.

Could it be that Machiavelli knew about Mignini's participation in an anti-Satanic conference in Sept 2013, just before Mignini himself wrote a letter decrying the allegation surrounding the Kercher murder?

Machiavelli - your re-mything project is about to go into overdrive!

Why are you not simply embarrassed by Mignini? Is Andrea Vogt embarrassed to be Mignini's media conduit?
 
It is indeed intellectually honest to assume that a negative TMB test does not have any logical power to rule out blood, and to point at another substance - because contrarily from Kaosums' claims, this is what scientifical literature actualy provides; even in this very same investigation there were sets of presumed blood stains in which some of them were negative to TMB and others were positive. And they were not even latent traces, they were visible, and ll obviously part o the same set.

.

But the prints do not all belong to Amanda. They belong to two different individuals, and one of them which belongs to a bigger foot which is compatible with Sollecito (and with the bloody bathmat print).

Moreover some of the prints are not "going" into Amanda's room. Two of them are located in the corridoor "beyond" her room, towards Romaneli's room. Why was she going into Filomena's room that morning (with another person)?
And then - third further detail - in Romanelli's room, there is another luminol stain. This one yielding a mixture of both Meredith and Knox's DNA! And the stain (yet of the same "unexplained" substance) is a room where no DNA from Knox and Meredith should never expected to be found.

And fourth, along with your ypotheses there should be a 'residual' print on the bathmat too - since she asserts she went in her room standing on the bathmat and dragging it. But there should be equally a residual watery blood layer on the shower plate, since the residual dluted blood that she picks up as she walks out of the shower must have a "source".
In fact there are residual watery blood footprints on the bathmat. But there was no residual blood in the shower.
So where sid she pick up the "residual" diluted blood?
(or maybe it means that was not "residual" at all?)

You see, I am just really amazed to see some people who draw scenarios in which person takes a shower in the victim's blood, while argueing that the person should not look like a suspect.

Why should anyone expect an intellectually honest discussion from you Machiavelli when you pose such absurd arguments as this?

1. You need to cite the literature regarding the TMB. The literature actually says that TMB and Luminol are "presumptive tests" for blood. Both react to "different" things in blood. Neither is actually a confirmatory test for blood. That Miss moron Stefanoni did not perform any, especially considering the contradicting tests demonstrates both her incompetence and stupidity. Also the fact that she didn't disclose them is troubling.

2. All of the stains detected with luminol tested negative for blood.

3. The footprints were also swabbed and tested for DNA. None of them tested positive for Meredith's DNA. Let me repeat that,

4. None of the bare footprints detected with luminol tested positive for Meredith's DNA.

Here is a layout of the footprints. The blue dots represent footprints that were revealed through Luminol. The Red Dots represent footprints "in visible" blood to the naked eye.
121212121212.jpg



The picture below is footprint number 1 as seen with luminol. The prosecution claims this footprint belongs to Amanda. The footprint is just outside Meredith's door with the toes pointing towards Meredith's room. How did they come to the conclusion that this print belonged to Amanda? Who knows? Did they simply assume? Okay, let's try and make it work. Amanda steps in Meredith's blood in the bedroom. She leaves no footprints at all in Meredith's room. She hops on one foot to the door keeping her foot that is covered in blood elevated. When she gets to Meredith's door, she turns around and hops backward out of the room onto the once elevated foot, leaving one single footprint made in blood on the floor. Was all of the blood from her foot transferred in that one print or did she simply start hoping on the other foot again? Tough decision? Okay, let's come back to it then.

figure2.jpg


The picture below shows footprints 2 and 3. These blobs were said to be two right feet. The prosecution claims that the footprint on the right belongs to Raffaele. How did they come to the conclusion that this print belonged to Raffaele? Who knows? Did they simply assume? Okay, once again, let's try and make it work. Raffaele steps in Meredith's blood in her bedroom. He hops on his left foot into the hallway. Then he puts down his right foot one time making one footprint. The same question applies for Raffaele. Was all of the blood from his foot transferred in that one print or did he simply start hopping on the other foot again? At least with Raffaele he could hop forward. He had it easier that the backward hopping
Amanda. Wait, what about that other footprint? You know, the other right footprint right next to Raffaele's. Who's footprint is that? Where did it come from? The prosecution did not care. They decided to skip it all together. Oops, we said skip. I think we meant hop.
figure3.jpg


All of the shoe prints seen in visible blood belong to Rudy Guede. Every single one of the shoe prints seen in blood, match the tread pattern of Rudy's shoes. But Rudy didn't hop, in fact, his prints are directional. Walking straight out the door.

We are not only supposed to believe that Amanda and Raffaele hopped all over the place, we are supposed to believe that they were able to clean up the stains found with luminol. We were even told that some footprints must have been cleaned up well enough so the luminol could not find them. We are supposed to believe that Amanda and Raffaele were able to achieve this amazing clean up without disturbing any of Rudy's prints and leaving no trace of their cleanup effort.

The prosecution presented no evidence whatsoever that proved that any clean up effort took place. Bloody shoe prints from Rudy Guede's shoes are seen going down the hall and right out the front door. How could Amanda and Raffaele clean the floor, removing all of the evidence that pointed at them, while leaving all of the evidence that pointed to Rudy completely untouched? . This type of clean up effort would simply be impossible. The prosecution's theory is simply nonsense.
 
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