Continuation Part Six: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[Kaosium]

They get there faster but process the same. You and others have contended that she was a veteran drinker at 20 which was substantiated by ...drumroll... Barbie as she reported that Meredith had been cited for public intoxication in England.

This is not uncommon amongst college students in my area, here's a recent report on it, note the one with the 0.37 BAC. 0.25 or so is even more common, and more the level the article is talking about. Note that all I am saying is that behavior would not be out of place at the UW and it doesn't surprise me at all. Neither Meredith or Amanda's antics were unusual for college students and both seemed to be doing well and taking care of business, much like those others do. It's a concern on many campuses however because it is so commonplace.

Please if you have any sort of cite that's not a fiction novel, I would appreciate seeing it. Oh h*** give me the true crime novel if that's where it comes from.

Here you go, pick the one you like best! They'll all tell you essentially the same thing.

I think tracing her day of death may be of value. I know that one side is totally on the burglary and the other on evil planned murder but perhaps her state played a part. I have never heard this stumbling that morning and would be curious as to who accompanied her home, etc.

I'm not sure who she was out with Halloween, I thought it was the English girls, but I might be mistaken. I know it wasn't Amanda as the fact they exchanged texts in an attempt to catch up with each other became a part of the case for a while.

She was 21 years old. How much tolerance do you think she had built up.

College students who go out partying build up a tolerance in a short period of time. Indeed as LJ also commented even in the same session the body adjusts so that by the time you're going back down the effect is not the same as it was getting there in the first place. Note that has no effect on BAC, but on the response of that BAC on how you feel and act.

This is one of the reasons it can become a concern as it soon starts to take more and more to get the same pleasurable feeling as well, requiring higher BACs.

Regardless the science says she would have processed at a rate of .015 and I'm not at convinced she would still have had a full drink in her at 9:30 or 10.

My argument is not really based upon the speed of processing it, just that it wouldn't surprise me that despite the constant rate the curve might level out at the end, the last bit lingers a little. I'm mostly just saying that an all-nighter like that can lead to a higher BAC than you think likely and thus that small amount of alcohol simply being residual is a plausible explanation to me, if not to you. The other possibilities seem less likely.

 

[Bill Williams]

Let’s assume for sake of argument that Machiavelli’s latest tale is true: the Italian press/Corriere della Sera made up the whole Halloween/Satanic riti thing out of thin air (I don’t actually believe for one second that law enforcement had nothing to do with this meme, however; and in fact, Machiavelli seems to admit in his double-speak way, that these “riti” were alleged in court).

What that would mean is that Mignini stood by while a defendant was being helplessly prejudiced in the press with false and sensational allegations. He stood there silently for years, allowing this meme to flourish, because it helped the prosecution by making the defendants look like evil and sick people, capable of murder and deserving of punishment. Mignini acceded to these allegations because they helped the prosecution by prejudicing the defendants in a country that conducts extremely lengthy trials, doesn’t sequester its jurors and is peculiarly superstitious.

Now, Mignini knows that the insanity in the press has died down, and except for credulous fools and sycophants, the world sees that these people are innocent. The Halloween/Satanic riti thing makes the whole prosecution, indeed, the whole justice system look infantile, medieval, provincial, silly, unfair. Instead of helping the prosecution, it undermines it. So, Mignini, being the opportunist that he is, now, six years later, decides that he should distance himself from this ridiculous meme. He is not doing this because of some perceived unfairness to the defendants or even to protect the system; rather, he is doing to save his own face.
Contrary to Machiavelli’s likely intent, this whole scenario makes Italy, Italians, and the Italian justice system look even worse. After all, who couldn’t have accepted that a local magistrate went rogue and unfairly obtained a conviction that was later corrected by the system? But now, according to Machiavelli, Mignini gets a pass and instead we have the press, the prosecution and the supreme court all colluding to wrongfully convict a young foreign girl in order to cover up for their various incompetences.

What a very sad and shameful system. Ghastly folks, all of them.

Would you do me a favour and explain this to Grinder?

Machiavelli is a bit of a lost cause on this point, in fact Machiavelli is part of the PR machine that represents Mignini out in the internet - esp. now that the Tabloid frenzy is not doing Mr. Mignini's heavy lifting for him.

That's the point, isn't it.... why did it take six years for Mignini to distance himself from this? You may have a better time explaining this than me.

 

[Bill Williams]

Leaving out Mach's posting would you detail the "full bore defense".

I didn't say the gauge of the bore... a small bore, Mignini, which is now full in in defence mode.

 

[Bill Williams]

So, instead of arguing with Machivelli, take a peek at this snippet from Mr. Mignini's recent letter to the editor where he is in defence mode. Compare and contrast this to the things that Judge Massei found as factual in his 2010 motivations report, a report written to justify the intial conviction of Knox and Sollecito.

No wonder Machiavelli wants white to be black and black to be white, and to imply that one needs an Italian law degree to determine that when Massei says Raffaele called police before the arrival of the postal police, this means that Massei really meant the opposite.

Instead, I need to point out the falsehood of an assertion which Mr. Spezi makes at the beginning of his article, as he tries to explain the reason for a link which, in his opinion, allegedly exists between the two cases, the one related to the Monster murders and Narducci’s death, and the one about the Kercher murder.

Mr. Spezi textually says: “… a strangely similar background, for two different cases, which the magistrate thought he could see behind: satanic orgies in the occasion of Halloween for Amanda, ritual blood sacrifices as a worship to the Devil in the Monster of Florence case…”.

This is an assertion that Mr. Spezi and crime-fiction author Douglas Preston have been repeating for years, but does not meet the smallest confirmation in the documentation of the two trials, nor in the scenario put forward by the prosecution in which the Meredith murder (which didint happen on Halloween but on the subsequent night) was the consequence of a sex hazing to which Meredith herself did not intend to take part, and, above all, it was the consequence of a climate of hostility which built up progressively between the Coulsdon girl and Amanda because of their different habits, and because of Meredith’s suspicion about alleged money thefts by Knox.

Does Mr Mignini deny the link to the psychic who he consulted at with both the Moster of Florence case as well as the Murder of Meredith Kercher case? I think he does. Why then do so many people, including Barbie Nadeau and John Kercher, report (as "approximate reporters") that Mignini did, in fact, tie the latter case in with a theory related to Hallowe'en, a Satan Rite theory?

And specific to this... please note that Mr. Mignini says that the Satanic Rite, was not put forward, "at trial." Does this not fit with Barbie Nadeau's contention that Manuela Comodi, co-prosecutor, threatened to quit if Mignini went to trial with the theory?

So far, Mignini is not denying the real issue......

But this is where Massei's motivations report comes in. Machiavelli has claimed that Mignini was sustained by all judges. Well, look at the theory even Mignini says the prosecution put forward at trial....

a sex hazing to which Meredith herself did not intend to take part, and, above all, it was the consequence of a climate of hostility which built up progressively between the Coulsdon girl and Amanda because of their different habits, and because of Meredith’s suspicion about alleged money thefts by Knox.

To this, Massei finds as factual, even in convicting the two students, that:

- the motive was Rudy's and Rudy's alone, involving his own lust.
- there was no "climate of hostility" between Meredith and Amanda, despite Mignini calling people to testify to such. Meredith's boyfriend said everything was fine between the two women.
- there is NO suspicion from Meredith that Knox was stealing money.​

The best Machiavelli can do is say that Massei is simply silent on those subjects.... silent on the very items that Mignini, in 2013, writes is key to understanding this case.

Is that the best you can do, Machiavelli?

 

[Grinder]

Re: Nadeau.... ok, I take it neither you nor Machiavelli are going to be on her Christmas list this year....

Re: "dangerous how?" Well, now that's the question for me, as shallow and shamelessly conspiratorial it is. This is a far more interesting question (which admittedly may go nowhere) than trying to figure out:

1) when the Satanic Rite issue entered the lexicon of this case
2) when either Mignini or Machiavelli first complained about its use​

The fact that they are now, in 2013, complaining about it says little about 2007-8 and buckets about 2013 and perhaps beyond.

I ask again, why is this a line in the sand in 2013? That's a far, far more interesting question than if Nadeau is a liar or just an "approximate reporter".

Sheesh - with friends like Machiavelli and Vogt, who needs enemies? Did Barbie's movie deal with Kate Beckinsdale really piss them off that much?

No I don't get it.

Please lay out why you think it is important?

Why it is a line in sand?

How do you know when Mignini or anybody else first complained about the use, because I recall that people for years have been saying that Mignini and the prosecution had never claimed satanic anything?

Maybe this will help you find actual proof that someone said it in court.

October 19, 2008
Amanda Knox, an American exchange student, stabbed her British fellow student and flatmate Meredith Kercher in the neck at the culmination of a satanic rite, a prosecutor told a Perugia court yesterday.

 

[Diocletus]

And specific to this... please note that Mr. Mignini says that the Satanic Rite, was not put forward, "at trial." Does this not fit with Barbie Nadeau's contention that Manuela Comodi, co-prosecutor, threatened to quit if Mignini went to trial with the theory?

Yes. What about the preliminary hearings and whatever he was suggesting to the press.

This "at trial" qualification is very evasive.

 

[yimyammer]

Thank you for you thoughts, dave. I always enjoy your posts and you bring up a very interesting point here. I agree that, in general, day-to-day life, what you have observed applies. I love the "brain candy" I get from my husband, family and friends, and I get very annoyed when we are at odds.

I don't agree that it applies in this case, though, for the following reason:

I LOVE IT WHEN SOMEONE DISAGREES WITH ME ABOUT THIS CASE.

The logic of this case is so easy, it makes all pro-innocence people feel smart when they get to argue it. It's just terribly, terribly fun -- that's why we keep doing it.

When I first started writing about the case, I was on the Seattle Times, was one of very few pro-innocence posters and didn't know anyone else. I still loved it! No matter how many other posters were against me or ganged up on me, the logic of a pro-innocence stance is impeccable and any rational person can see it. I never got (or get) discouraged in the least in the face of the opposition -- I feel energized.

I'm sure there are many hardier souls than I among the guilters, but arguing this case against pro-innocence posters is not rewarding for them, and there's a reason for that.

I have a forum thread for you if you love to argue with PGP's. PM me for the info if you're interested. I'd love to see someone knowledgeable, tenacious and rational present an opposing view.

 

[Grinder]

Here you go, pick the one you like best! They'll all tell you essentially the same thing.

No I was asking for proof that she had special reported issues coming home that morning.

I'm not sure who she was out with Halloween, I thought it was the English girls, but I might be mistaken. I know it wasn't Amanda as the fact they exchanged texts in an attempt to catch up with each other became a part of the case for a while.

Well Mister know it all . I don't know and I think we should know more about that party and with whom she was with and how she arrived home.

You stated that she had some issues and I have never seen anything on that so would appreciate from where that idea comes.

College students who go out partying build up a tolerance in a short period of time. Indeed as LJ also commented even in the same session the body adjusts so that by the time you're going back down the effect is not the same as it was getting there in the first place. Note that has no effect on BAC, but on the response of that BAC on how you feel and act.

Well I trust the science more than lay opinion. I don't care how she felt per se but how the full drink remained in her system 16 to 17 hours after returning home and most likely even longer since her last drink. As Chris has admitted that level of alcohol could have slowed digestion and would make three hours for food to get to the duodenum more reasonable.

My argument is not really based upon the speed of processing it, just that it wouldn't surprise me that despite the constant rate the curve might level out at the end, the last bit lingers a little. I'm mostly just saying that an all-nighter like that can lead to a higher BAC than you think likely and thus that small amount of alcohol simply being residual is a plausible explanation to me, if not to you. The other possibilities seem less likely.

It would be nice for the leveling of the curve to be defined a little more precisely. As you know I've looked at many sites and they all talk about constant curves and one specifically says that a .15 will go to zero in 10 hours.

Even with the high tolerance Meredith is suggested to have had I still believe that at 3 in the afternoon with a .1 or .12 people would have noticed that she was still drunk yet I have never seen that said.

I think it more likely that she had some hair of dog that bit in the afternoon or early evening or that she drank at the girls or had a nightcap.

 

[RWVBWL]

Some Tango #

I am unfamiliar with it, but I will try to find a recording. That reminds me, what music was played at the concert at which Amanda and Raffaele met? Maybe Night on Bald Mountain? Totentanz? The Mephisto Waltz? Danse Macabre? That might explain a few things. Maybe not though.

Hiya Halides1,
Meredith and Amanda went to the University of Foreigners to hear Quintetto Bottesini.
The 1st piece was Le Grande Tango that night...

 

[Chris_Halkides]

nothing satanic about the music that evening

Hiya Halides1,
Meredith and Amanda went to the University of Foreigners to hear Quintetto Bottesini.
The 1st piece was Le Grande Tango that night...

Thanks. I enjoy Astor Piazzola's music.

 

[RWVBWL]

Thanks. I enjoy Astor Piazzola's music.

You do? YIKES!
Don't sin and be smokin' any of that funny stuff,
(like that dude pictured in your avatar from 75 years ago) for cryin' out loud
and then be murderin' anyone!

Kidding aside,
I don't think that I have ever read of any youths attending classical music concerts and days later, participating in a sex game gone wrong that ends in murder. Have you?


Here's a question for you folks:
Rudy Guede was supposedly on his 1st date with Meredith Kercher, right?
That 1st date with Meredith ended in a horrible rape and murder.
What was Rudy listening to while he used Laura+Filomena's toilet?
Some Sublime maybe?

 

[Mary_H]

Well so what? I know one poster here that doesn't . And I'm criticized for not reading all the fiction accounts in books.

That was my point. Mach said the title of the article said one thing but the text said something different.

Tomato tomaaato. I've decided to call yellow journalists "approximate journalists" and in that spirit inverted commas as well. It's so continental.

How widespread was the reporting of this in Italy? The satanic rite stuff hasn't been reported all that much outside of partisan bloggers and commenters here and elsewhere.<snip>

Amanda Knox voted Italian 'woman of the year'

The American student accused of stabbing her British flatmate Meredith Kercher to death has been named among Italy's personalities of the year.

"Miss Knox has appeared on the covers of Italian magazines and in countless newspaper stories, her blonde hair, fresh complexion and good looks earning her the name "angel-face" from the Italian media."

[Keeping in mind most Italians still think A & R are guilty.]

 

[Kaosium]

I think it more likely that she had some hair of dog that bit in the afternoon or early evening or that she drank at the girls or had a nightcap.

That could be too, it is of little interest to me, I was just addressing it because of what you said about not wanting to talk about it, and made the argument for residual which I find more plausible than you. You made your arguments and odds are we'll never know. Therefore I'd prefer to get off this little derail as that's best sometimes in my experience.

 

[Grinder]

Amanda Knox voted Italian 'woman of the year'

The American student accused of stabbing her British flatmate Meredith Kercher to death has been named among Italy's personalities of the year.

"Miss Knox has appeared on the covers of Italian magazines and in countless newspaper stories, her blonde hair, fresh complexion and good looks earning her the name "angel-face" from the Italian media."

[Keeping in mind most Italians still think A & R are guilty.]

Quote:
How widespread was the reporting of this in Italy? The satanic rite stuff hasn't been reported all that much outside of partisan bloggers and commenters here and elsewhere.<snip>

I didn't see any mention of satanic in the linked article. When I did a search - Mignini "satanic rite" - only 19,000 hits most of which were written by Bill W

 

[Grinder]

That could be too, it is of little interest to me, I was just addressing it because of what you said about not wanting to talk about it, and made the argument for residual which I find more plausible than you. You made your arguments and odds are we'll never know. Therefore I'd prefer to get off this little derail as that's best sometimes in my experience.

Well I find it fascinating that there is so little interest in what she was doing her last 6 or 7 hours alive. If one steps back just a little from knowing exactly how this all came down, her activities might be significant.

If you have some link to her arrival home story after the party, send it via PM if you want to end it here and now.

 

[Kaosium]

Well I find it fascinating that there is so little interest in what she was doing her last 6 or 7 hours alive. If one steps back just a little from knowing exactly how this all came down, her activities might be significant.

Maybe, but all it amounts to is about one drink, so how would it matter? It could be the English girls just didn't see or remember her having one.

If you have some link to her arrival home story after the party, send it via PM if you want to end it here and now.

I don't recall where I read it, it's been mentioned in the thread(s) a few times, perhaps a search will uncover it.

 

[Supernaut]

I've found his movies to be wildly inconsistent - some I have found boring ("Genova" comes to mind), or ludicrous and ghastly ("The Killer Inside Me") but others are fantastic. No love for "The Trip" or "Cock & Bull Story"? Not even "In This World"?

Baffling. Or is he Jewish?

Is he Jewish? I doubt it!

No, just a "bread-head" (as they were known in my formative years), hence his "prolific" output.

I'm not saying all his films are completely un-watchable - some are 'entertaining', but that isn't enough.

I just perceive a shallow, somewhat over-compensating personality, and he gave it away with movies like "The Killer Inside Me" and "9 Songs".

Just excerable stuff, there was no redeeming him after those two.

 

[acbytesla]

I was going to ask you the same thing.

Like you say, "tastes" differ, but Winterbottom is and will probably always be a wannabe and phony - not to mention a careerist, mindful of Camden and Hampstead house prices.

What is really strange about Winterbottom's project "Face of an Angel" is that IMDB has it listed it's Status as "Filming". but the list of credits is so incomplete that this seems impossible.

They have only 3 actors listed, a production coordinator, the director, the producer the sound mixer and two writers. Now this wouldn't be unusual for a film where the status is pre production or in development, but for one that is listed as filming is very strange. Must be a low budget movie.

 

[Bill Williams]

Quote:
How widespread was the reporting of this in Italy? The satanic rite stuff hasn't been reported all that much outside of partisan bloggers and commenters here and elsewhere.<snip>

I didn't see any mention of satanic in the linked article. When I did a search - Mignini "satanic rite" - only 19,000 hits most of which were written by Bill W

I'm thinking of selling the film rights. My asking price is that Brad Pitt plays me, and Pee Wee Herman plays Grinder. James Woods plays Machiavelli and Tilda Swinton plays Andrea Vogt.

 

[Bill Williams]

Yes. What about the preliminary hearings and whatever he was suggesting to the press.

This "at trial" qualification is very evasive.

Yet it's the way he puts it in his letter to the editor.