Continuation Part Six: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[Grinder]

Did they have sex Grinder? Does minor finger penetration count?... Damn it, I sound like Bill Clinton now.

You sound more like Dan Quayle.

The point was that Lalli said there was no signs of forced sex. That took rape out of the picture, but they suspected correctly that there had been sexual activity. This may have led to them to some sort of "sex game gone bad."

 

[Kaosium]

Chris I think you have beat that horse to death . Seriously you and D and K have done so much work on the DNA most everyone with an open mind agrees that the ICSI blanked-up and the knife and bra are out.

I would like you to spend a little more time on the foot prints.

Footprints, you mean the luminol hits? The ones that tested negative for blood? We haven't spent enough time on those already?

OK, then. But let's try something different then. Consider that after the murder we know, (during separate instances) that Amanda, Amanda and Raffaele, Amanda, Raffaele, Filomena her boyfriend and buddy as well as the two postal policemen all walked through that hallway numerous times where Guede left those barely visible bloody shoeprints. We then know that the Polizia Scientifica processed those shoeprints, cleaned them up, and then proceeded to work in the cottage going through that hallway countless times from the murder room and other rooms in the house. They kinda had to.

Now, I said that the luminol hits tested negative for blood, but there's one that didn't, it was the one that overlapped one of the scrubbed-up shoeprints Rudy left. It seldom comes up being as bunnies know better as the natural conclusion is that area tested positive with TMB because of the previously cleaned up blood. This area they were also unable to get DNA from, unlike the other floor areas they tested where the luminol reacted, again leading to the common forensic occurrence of blood being able to be detected even after washing, but DNA not being so durable when cleanser and water is applied.

All things here considered, how is it you could say that even if the (majority of the) luminol hits were actually blood so diluted it was undetectable by TMB, that it was the result of the murder and not all those people walking on the floor where Rudy's barely visible bloody shoeprints were and tracking it around? Then if that wasn't the case, that the Polizia Scientifica who were done processing that hallway and used it to access the other rooms, going in and out of the murder room where there was blood everywhere, didn't leave faint traces of their passage in that hallway that six weeks later the clowns in bunny suits 'found?'

Coming to Le Chic does count and even Amanda never claimed she had only met him once. CD at times self describes herself as a storyteller. That's what she is, not a reporter.

By the same definition of 'met' Amanda 'met' at least a hundred different people each and every day she went to school. All the ones in the classes before her, the ones in her class, the ones in the class after, the ones walking around campus. Then there's every single person who went into Le Chic while she was working, all the people at the chocolate festival, the classical music concert where she (by one of the most common definitions) met Raffaele etc. ad absurdum!

Follow that link and realize you're using the transitive verb definition at the bottom and Candace might have being using one of the first three.

Now I'd like to talk about the day of death and what really happened at Robin's. When did they eat? Did Meredith have a drink or two?
How drunk were the british girls on Halloween? Is their testimony credible?

It's not impossible the English girls all lied, but what would it matter if they did? Do you think they were involved?

Lalli thought the sex was not forced? Is that what led into the sex game idea?

I have no idea where the sex game idea came from, it doesn't arise from any evidence at the scene or any known practice of Amanda and Raffaele.

 

[Grinder]

Which foot prints? The ones in Meredith's room which Mignini presented to the court as belonging to Raffaele and Amanda but which under proper examination are shown to be made by a shoe like the ones Rudy used to have before his sudden incognito tour of Germany? Or, the bare print in the small bath which while the print itself cannot rule out either suspect, the circumstance of the print is compatible with someone steping out from the shower after washing blood from their pant leg and Rugy Guede has written that he left the cottage that night with wet pants. Or maybe you want to talk more about the luminol prints which can't be matched to any individual, can't be timed to the vicinity of the murder, don't form any patern and can't even be identified as to the material they were made of except that they tested negative for blood; but that didn't stop the prosecution from claiming that they were made by Amanda and Raffaele running naked through the cottage after murdering Meredith.

The foot prints not the shoe prints. I'm most interested in the foot prints in the hallway and bedrooms they attributed to Amanda and supposedly in blood. First off they did test negative for blood even if they did light up when luminol was applied, but it is possible that it was a very weak blood solution and could have been there for a long time.

Secondly, I don't think anyone after looking at them would call them a match with Amanda. Compatible sure, except the one with the longer second toe.

Thirdly I like to see the reference prints taken from the other cottage residents at the time and ones that had lived there previously.

 

[RoseMontague]

She professed to know Rudy Hermann Guede, although just ‚a little.‛ She remembered that she had met him in the center of town, during the course of an evening in which she had (also) met the guys who lived in her same house at Via della Pergola-- but they lived downstairs-- and they had introduced her to Rudy. Then she had spent most of the time with Meredith and they had returned home, all together. On another occasion, she met him (i.e., Rudy) at the ‚Le Chic‛ pub. She also remembered attending a party in the second half of the month of October 2007, together with the guys who lived downstairs. She had smoked a joint and every so often, with friends, she used narcotics, marijuana.

Another witness said he saw them together three times. IIRC that witness was disputed by someone here.

Amanda never said she had only met him once. She said she just knew him a little in an intercepted conversation.

CD at 22:30 of the forum says she only met him once.

ETA - Was Napoleoni the police chief? Because that's what Dempsey calls her at about 24:50. Head of the homicide squad, police chief what's the difference.

The witness wasn't disputed, it was the translation of the Massei report. It should read on one of these occasions, not on these occasions. (going by memory-but I have posted the original Italian as well as the PMF error a few times previously)

 

[Kaosium]

The foot prints not the shoe prints. I'm most interested in the foot prints in the hallway and bedrooms they attributed to Amanda and supposedly in blood. First off they did test negative for blood even if they did light up when luminol was applied, but it is possible that it was a very weak blood solution and could have been there for a long time.

Secondly, I don't think anyone after looking at them would call them a match with Amanda. Compatible sure, except the one with the longer second toe.

Thirdly I like to see the reference prints taken from the other cottage residents at the time and ones that had lived there previously.

The one in Amanda's room that has a toe that doesn't match Amanda's is a bare footprint, as is the one pointing into Meredith's room, but a lot of them look more like blurred shoeprints, or bootie prints...

 

[Grinder]

Footprints, you mean the luminol hits? The ones that tested negative for blood? We haven't spent enough time on those already?

Yes we have and we discussed most everything.

OK, then. But let's try something different then. Consider that after the murder we know, (during separate instances) that Amanda, Amanda and Raffaele, Amanda, Raffaele, Filomena her boyfriend and buddy as well as the two postal policemen all walked through that hallway numerous times where Guede left those barely visible bloody shoeprints. We then know that the Polizia Scientifica processed those shoeprints, cleaned them up, and then proceeded to work in the cottage going through that hallway countless times from the murder room and other rooms in the house. They kinda had to.

Now, I said that the luminol hits tested negative for blood, but there's one that didn't, it was the one that overlapped one of the scrubbed-up shoeprints Rudy left. It seldom comes up being as bunnies know better as the natural conclusion is that area tested positive with TMB because of the previously cleaned up blood. This area they were also unable to get DNA from, unlike the other floor areas they tested where the luminol reacted, again leading to the common forensic occurrence of blood being able to be detected even after washing, but DNA not being so durable when cleanser and water is applied.

It is my understanding that blood in a very diluted state could test negative with TMB while testing positive with luminol. It is also the case that blood will stay for years so it could be from previous tenants.

All things here considered, how is it you could say that even if the (majority of the) luminol hits were actually blood so diluted it was undetectable by TMB, that it was the result of the murder and not all those people walking on the floor where Rudy's barely visible bloody shoeprints were and tracking it around? Then if that wasn't the case, that the Polizia Scientifica who were done processing that hallway and used it to access the other rooms, going in and out of the murder room where there was blood everywhere, didn't leave faint traces of their passage in that hallway that six weeks later the clowns in bunny suits 'found?'

Could be as you say but the footprints would have been spottier if you are correct, I think. As I've said I would guess that it could be old and that someone had either very diluted blood from the shower or some other substance.

By the same definition of 'met' Amanda 'met' at least a hundred different people each and every day she went to school. All the ones in the classes before her, the ones in her class, the ones in the class after, the ones walking around campus. Then there's every single person who went into Le Chic while she was working, all the people at the chocolate festival, the classical music concert where she (by one of the most common definitions) met Raffaele etc. ad absurdum!
Follow that link and realize you're using the transitive verb definition at the bottom and Candace might have being using one of the first three.

I'm using the same one that Amanda used in her intercepted conversation with her parents.

It's not impossible the English girls all lied, but what would it matter if they did? Do you think they were involved?



I have no idea where the sex game idea came from, it doesn't arise from any evidence at the scene or any known practice of Amanda and Raffaele.

No I don't think they were involved. I realize that just about nobody here wants to deal with the alcohol in her system but if the british girls told the truth and knew the truth, I wonder where the alcohol came from.

All the information I can find says she couldn't still have it in her system from the night before. The science seems mature and testing people's BAC would be pretty simple.

 

[Grinder]

The witness wasn't disputed, it was the translation of the Massei report. It should read on one of these occasions, not on these occasions. (going by memory-but I have posted the original Italian as well as the PMF error a few times previously)

Thanks Rose I knew it was something.

 

[Grinder]

The one in Amanda's room that has a toe that doesn't match Amanda's is a bare footprint, as is the one pointing into Meredith's room, but a lot of them look more like blurred shoeprints, or bootie prints...

Yes. I'm only interested in the bare ones not shoe prints. Booties prints, hmmmm.

 

[MichaelB]

Yes. I'm only interested in the bare ones not shoe prints. Booties prints, hmmmm.

Something tells me you're not interested in anything. This is just a little game you play.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

signs of force

You sound more like Dan Quayle.

The point was that Lalli said there was no signs of forced sex. That took rape out of the picture, but they suspected correctly that there had been sexual activity. This may have led to them to some sort of "sex game gone bad."

I intend the word rape to mean sexual activity that is clearly unwanted by one party. One site says that an examination should look for "Genital trauma to the perineum, hymen, vulva, vagina, cervix, or anus." I am not certain that the absence of such symptoms means that the sexual activity was consensual. I am attempting to look into this difficult subject more thoroughly.
EDT
"The colposcope is a standard tool used by gynecologists for the evaluation of microscopic cervical, vaginal, or vulvar disease. Using a colposcope, the vulva, vagina, cervix, and/or anus can be examined at magnifications over 30 times the actual size. This permits detection of tears, bruises, or abrasions invisible to the naked eye. Colposcopic examination provides a much more objective and sensitive way of seeing and documenting genital, anal, and other injuries in sexual assault victims.

Conventional rape exams without colposcopes typically report evidence of genital injuries in only 19%-28% of cases (Slaughter & Brown, 1992). However, examiners using colposcopes find evidence of genital trauma in up to 87% of cases (Slaughter & Brown, 1992)." link.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

overapplication of luminol

The luminol was applied to the point of creating puddles, if my interpretation is correct. Colonel Garofano also mentioned this problem. One thing that should be studied experimentally is whether or not overapplication of luminol increases the chances of a false positive. Another thing that should be studied is whether the overapplication of luminol would increase the odds of a TMB test's failing because something in the luminol is incompatible. A correctly applied luminol test should not interfere with a TMB test, however.

 

[acbytesla]

The witness wasn't disputed, it was the translation of the Massei report. It should read on one of these occasions, not on these occasions. (going by memory-but I have posted the original Italian as well as the PMF error a few times previously)

The one thing that has been problematic about this case has been the issues with translation and people's understanding of the other language. How Amanda's words have been changed as they have gone from her English into Italian and then back to Italian. I'm convinced that not only because the words are different but the syntax in how the words are used to modify each other has caused so much misunderstanding.

 

[acbytesla]

You sound more like Dan Quayle.

The point was that Lalli said there was no signs of forced sex. That took rape out of the picture, but they suspected correctly that there had been sexual activity. This may have led to them to some sort of "sex game gone bad."

But can a coroner always when it is consensual?

 

[Chris_Halkides]

leaning against

But can a coroner always when it is consensual?

I don't believe so, but I am still waiting to hear back from someone. I posted a link to a discussion of something called a colposcope above in my EDT.

 

[katy_did]

I managed to find half of one sentence from the description of the film that was true.

That paragraph isn't a description of the film, it's from the blurb for Nadeau's book. I doubt the film will be like that since Winterbottom's already said he's not exploring the question of guilt/innocence.

I'm a fan of Winterbottom's previous work - he's normally quite a thoughtful director - so I'm going to withhold judgment on the film until I actually see it. What I can't work out is why he needed to buy the rights to Nadeau's book. There's nothing in there which he couldn't have easily found from the mass of information already in the public domain. Unless he just wanted the title, I suppose...

 

[Bill Williams]

Footprints, you mean the luminol hits? The ones that tested negative for blood? We haven't spent enough time on those already?

OK, then. But let's try something different then. Consider that after the murder we know, (during separate instances) that Amanda, Amanda and Raffaele, Amanda, Raffaele, Filomena her boyfriend and buddy as well as the two postal policemen all walked through that hallway numerous times where Guede left those barely visible bloody shoeprints. We then know that the Polizia Scientifica processed those shoeprints, cleaned them up, and then proceeded to work in the cottage going through that hallway countless times from the murder room and other rooms in the house. They kinda had to.

<..... sinister deletia .......>

I have no idea where the sex game idea came from, it doesn't arise from any evidence at the scene or any known practice of Amanda and Raffaele.

It's amazing that anyone - Massei or ANYONE - could use that hallways as evidence of anything. The guilters and haters have to ignore so much, and invent a few things, to make their case.

By virtue of (through no fault really) the postal police letting people have the run of the place (outside of Meredith's room) before the horrible discovery, renders every room, really, inadmissible and for good reason. There is reason to believe that even Filomena was allowed to "rummage through her room, and it is almost a certainty that she took her laptop out of her room, from behind what was eventually police tape no less....

I also have no idea where the sex game theory came from.... it most certainly was not found as factual by Massei's court, the one that convicted. If Machiavelli comes back and argues sex-game as an alternative to Satanic Rite, and that all judges agreed with Mignini..... well, cut and past from the Massei report is alive and well....

 

[Kaosium]

It is my understanding that blood in a very diluted state could test negative with TMB while testing positive with luminol. It is also the case that blood will stay for years so it could be from previous tenants.

What would make you think finding blood in a very diluted state was related to the murder? What is the source of the dilution in the murder room?

I can think of one outside the murder room, the bathroom, there's even a source of already diluted blood available, the diluted footprint on the bathmat. I also forgot to include one other suspect for the luminol hits that don't look like female footprints: Rudy Guede of course. We know he left bloody shoeprints in the hall, we know he went into that bathroom and back the murder room and down that hall, perhaps more than once.

I don't think there's any reason to suppose those luminol hits all happened at the same time either, what would indicate that, especially being as it's not like they form a coherent trail or anything?

Could be as you say but the footprints would have been spottier if you are correct, I think. As I've said I would guess that it could be old and that someone had either very diluted blood from the shower or some other substance.

I know what you mean about 'spottier,' I was suggesting that in the process of all those people walking in that hall, some of whom came directly from outside without care to preserve a crime scene, someone tracked in moisture either from outside or the bathroom and (perhaps another person and/or at a different time) someone tracked over the bloody shoeprints Rudy left.

What I need to do is show you what the floor looked like once the three (adorable!) little rugrats my brother owns got home from the pumpkin patch and corn maze yesterday, each of whose shoes had been carefully cleaned before they went inside. However one (at least) still had some dirt somewhere on their shoes or found some, another (at least) found moisture from elsewhere, and despite the best laid plans the floor ended up with faint little brown shoeprints in numerous locations. Next time they get carried in by their ankles!

I'm using the same one that Amanda used in her intercepted conversation with her parents.

How would that matter to what CD says? Do you expect her to use textspeak like Amanda does in her e-mail or spell testimony and murderer like she does in her note as well?

No I don't think they were involved. I realize that just about nobody here wants to deal with the alcohol in her system but if the british girls told the truth and knew the truth, I wonder where the alcohol came from.

It doesn't have to do with not wanting to deal with it, at least not in my case, it just so happens that residual alcohol is a plausible explanation. In another thread (here) there's a story about a girl who still had a .012 BAC seven hours after imbibing, she was 13 and not a regular drinker. That was not the case with Meredith and by the account I read when she came in ~4 AM she was having her own set of problems and no doubt had a significantly higher tolerance than a 13 year-old light drinker.

All the information I can find says she couldn't still have it in her system from the night before. The science seems mature and testing people's BAC would be pretty simple.

What's relevant here is the tolerance of a regularly drinking college student who spends all night drinking and whether high amounts of alcohol can allow the very last amounts to linger a little longer than the 0.016 depletion rate would suggest. I know you can link a dozen charts saying that rate is an absolute, but were a yacht to be placed on it I'd say that curve might just level out a little at the very end and some of the last vestiges don't go 'gently into that good night.'

If Meredith didn't drink with the English girls and it wasn't residual alcohol, then it would pretty much have to be she drank when she came home or with Rudy Guede. I doubt the latter as he would have included it in his story as there ought to be some evidence of it. It would certainly help with his contention they had a date if they had a drink together, there's no reason for him to hide it that I can see. It could be that glass on her desk (nightstand?) held a shot she took when she came home before she filled it with water as a chaser, possibly they had a bottle in the house I never heard of. That would explain it, but does it really matter one way or another?

 

[Kaosium]

It's amazing that anyone - Massei or ANYONE - could use that hallways as evidence of anything. The guilters and haters have to ignore so much, and invent a few things, to make their case.

By virtue of (through no fault really) the postal police letting people have the run of the place (outside of Meredith's room) before the horrible discovery, renders every room, really, inadmissible and for good reason. There is reason to believe that even Filomena was allowed to "rummage through her room, and it is almost a certainty that she took her laptop out of her room, from behind what was eventually police tape no less....

I also have no idea where the sex game theory came from.... it most certainly was not found as factual by Massei's court, the one that convicted. If Machiavelli comes back and argues sex-game as an alternative to Satanic Rite, and that all judges agreed with Mignini..... well, cut and past from the Massei report is alive and well....

I wouldn't go so far as to say every room was inadmissible, but they can't pretend that nothing was disturbed in every room, especially in Filomena's for the reasons you mention. However once the Polizia Scientifica were done the idea they could come back six weeks later and the place had any detailed and specific forensic value is absurd, they'd trashed the place.

 

[Dan O.]

The foot prints not the shoe prints. I'm most interested in the foot prints in the hallway and bedrooms they attributed to Amanda and supposedly in blood. First off they did test negative for blood even if they did light up when luminol was applied, but it is possible that it was a very weak blood solution and could have been there for a long time.

Secondly, I don't think anyone after looking at them would call them a match with Amanda. Compatible sure, except the one with the longer second toe.

Thirdly I like to see the reference prints taken from the other cottage residents at the time and ones that had lived there previously.

Number one on the list of other substances that will light up luminol is rust. Get some rust buildup from say a leaking radiator regulator valve. Spread that on the floor with a wet mop then let someone walk across that in bare or stocking feet and you create a trail of rusty footprints. Wipe it up quickly with a well rinsed mop and there is no more print. But miss a couple of prints and let them sit on the tile for a while and the rust will bond to the tile creating a semi-permanent print that is difficult to wash off without strong chemicals.

What do you think the chance that the regulator valves on the radiators in that cottage had been leaking sometime in the past? I would say it's 100% because the rust stains are still visible under the radiators.

What about the claim that these are very weak blood tracks? Not a chance. If they were tracks there would be a series of them starting somewhere and going somewhere until they faded out to where they were no longer detectable. Look at the trail of Rudy's shoe prints for example. And the couldn't have been wiped up. Again, look at Rudy's shoe prints in that same hall that weren't wiped up.

 

[Samson]

That paragraph isn't a description of the film, it's from the blurb for Nadeau's book. I doubt the film will be like that since Winterbottom's already said he's not exploring the question of guilt/innocence.

I'm a fan of Winterbottom's previous work - he's normally quite a thoughtful director - so I'm going to withhold judgment on the film until I actually see it. What I can't work out is why he needed to buy the rights to Nadeau's book. There's nothing in there which he couldn't have easily found from the mass of information already in the public domain. Unless he just wanted the title, I suppose...

I see now, it seemed surprising to me that it could be the official wording planned for the film release, but that was stated in at least two articles in fact.