Continuation Part Six: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[acbytesla]

Not true by the photographs and video that we have been able to see. I suppose there is a secret video along with that secret photo collection at only the prosecution and supreme court judges are able to see that shows the truth.

The truth is that there should have been glass on top of cloths as well as under the clothes. Under the theory that Rudy tossed the rock through the window, climbed in and proceeded to search for stashed cash, glass would get on the floor and clothing from the initial shattering of the window, the clothing would be moved by Rudy's feet steping into the dark room and knocking clothes out of the closet in his search and further glass would fall out of the window onto the clothes directly below by the window blowing open and closed in the wind after the front door is left open.

People seeing what they want to see.

 

[Bill Williams]

Tesla she lied. The DNA was not starch. Randy had told her that before she published the book. If people wish to call Vogt a liar then I will call Dempsey a liar. It is more possible that when Amanda said "I was there" she meant the cottage than the DNA was starch.

Do you really think Candace was trying to convince readers that a human DNA profile was extracted from starch? I don't. I think she assumes a degree of intelligence on the part of her readers, such that they can understand what she meant. She meant that starch, rather than human tissue, was found on the knife blade, ergo the DNA profile must have come from an extraneous contaminant.

Vogt, meanwhile, did her best to convince her readers that Amanda confessed to being at the crime scene in a secretly recorded conversation. That is a flagrant misrepresentation of what Amanda said and what she clearly meant.
If you can't see the difference, you have truly lost the plot.

Not only that, but Machiavelli buttresses this with the claim that Amanda and her parents were using "Mafia Code" to "really say" that she'd been at the cottage during the murder.

I think that Grinder did, in fact, get pissed off royally about Dempsey in some unrelated matter.

 

[Mary_H]

Ask yourself this question - why now? Why does Mignini feel a need to defend himself from this in 2013 if it is such a lame, obviously wrong allegation?

<snip>Because, he thinks that certain people will become obsessed with it as a distraction and miss spending time poking holes in the case.<snip>

Well said, Grinder.

ETA - is this just about the letter after Spezi had something published? Then it wouldn't just be coming out of no where.

Right.

 

[Bill Williams]

From what I recall, Andrea Vogt's "I was there" article came completely out of the blue as if it was a new revelation in the case, never before written about. It was clearly written to show that Amanda admitted being at the crime scene. I haven't read the article since it was written and don't care again, but that was pretty bad.

In fairness, the really bad part about that article was the headline, for which Vogt was not responsible. The editor who put the headline on it could have chosen 5 or six "themes" for the headline, some of which would not have been half-bad.

But clearly, Andrea Vogt STILL believes that Knox, in essence, confessed with that remark. Machiavelli thinks it is "Mafia Code".

 

[Bill Williams]

Machiavelli - can you comment, please, on this summary of Massei's, as it relates to Mignini's case.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=9568149#post9568149

Is there ANYTHING in there that agrees with Mignini's case?

 

[Mary_H]

<snip>The evidence is clear and Dempsey claims to be an expert on the case. Randy added to the obvious by telling us that he had informed her of the "mistake" before she published her book.<snip>

You've said this three times now, I think, so I want make a clarification. What Randy said was this: CD asked for opinions on her article before she sent it out. I mentioned the starch issue was unrelated to 36B and that her article implied the two were related.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9553300&postcount=1477

There is a large group of supporters who are connected on Facebook. Sometimes authors of articles will post them and ask the Facebook supporters to look them over for any errors or confusion. That is what Randy is referring to. It is something that happened in the last couple of weeks; it is not related to Candace's book.

I didn't really pay attention, so I don't know whether more people offered feedback; there's usually a few. I also didn't pay attention to whether Candace made any corrections or changes.

Having met Candace several times, I have to say that there is something weird about having strong feelings against her. She's a pretty neutral person in general, I mean, she's mild-mannered and not in the least bit forceful. She was way more intimidated and scared by the guilters than I think most of us would have been. And I think if she were trying to deliberately convey false information, we would have seen a lot more examples of it along the way than we did.

Projecting ulterior motives onto Candace strikes me as similar to the guilters calling Raffaele "Knife Boy." It's kind of like calling Woody Allen Knife Boy.

 

[acbytesla]

Not only that, but Machiavelli buttresses this with the claim that Amanda and her parents were using "Mafia Code" to "really say" that she'd been at the cottage during the murder.

I think that Grinder did, in fact, get pissed off royally about Dempsey in some unrelated matter.

You have to wonder what causes people to make these kind of claims.

My question to Machiavelli is how and when could Amanda and her parents have come up with a "Mafia code"? Nobody in their family ever had issues with the law. These are middle class, middle American, very average citizens. The police were monitoring every letter, every email, every phone call between them. So when and how Mach? Do you think Machiavelli believes that claim Bill? Or is he just throwing as much mud against the wall hoping that some of it will stick?

 

[Bill Williams]

You have to wonder what causes people to make these kind of claims.

My question to Machiavelli is how and when could Amanda and her parents have come up with a "Mafia code"? Nobody in their family ever had issues with the law. These are middle class, middle American, very average citizens. The police were monitoring every letter, every email, every phone call between them. So when and how Mach? Do you think Machiavelli believes that claim Bill? Or is he just throwing as much mud against the wall hoping that some of it will stick?

I was going to discuss this with him over dessert, but he has so far refused. He's left the door open, though.

This one is up there with being able to discern from Knox's writings that she could choose not to sleep, and thus had no deprivation, exhaustion issues at interrogation - so that she could knowingly and cunningly pull the wool over the eyes of seasoned cops.

 

[acbytesla]

Projecting ulterior motives onto Candace strikes me as similar to the guilters calling Raffaele "Knife Boy." It's kind of like calling Woody Allen Knife Boy.

I remember reading posts about Raffaele's "collection" of knives, thinking he must be strange. Why is he obsessed with knives?

Then I started counting the number of knives (not including cooking knives) that I have. It turns out I have 6 pocket knives. But I'd never say I have a collection. In fact, I'm not sure how I ended up with this many. I have two in fishing tackle boxes. (never want to go fishing without a knife) a couple of other knives that I have had since I was a kid and finally two flick knives that I bought when I went fishing with out a knife on me.

Since I was maybe 10 years old, I have carried a knife. My Dad gave it to me. He taught me that a good knife can come in handy. But it has never been for protection. It's to cut a box, twine, extract a sliver, cut up a fish. I think there are a lot of guys like me. But I wouldn't say I collect knives or am obsessed with them in any way. A knife is just a tool. I have probably 6 tape measures and I'm not collecting them either.

Then I find out I must be a lot more obsessed than Raffaele since he has only 2 knives.

 

[acbytesla]

I was going to discuss this with him over dessert, but he has so far refused. He's left the door open, though.

This one is up there with being able to discern from Knox's writings that she could choose not to sleep, and thus had no deprivation, exhaustion issues at interrogation - so that she could knowingly and cunningly pull the wool over the eyes of seasoned cops.

I don't know, I personally like his Masonic conspiracy theory and how Hellman was bribed. I'd say he pulled it out of his a***** . or thin a****. Either way, he certainly has Chutzpah.

 

[Mary_H]

You have to wonder what causes people to make these kind of claims.

My question to Machiavelli is how and when could Amanda and her parents have come up with a "Mafia code"? Nobody in their family ever had issues with the law. These are middle class, middle American, very average citizens. The police were monitoring every letter, every email, every phone call between them. So when and how Mach? Do you think Machiavelli believes that claim Bill? Or is he just throwing as much mud against the wall hoping that some of it will stick?

I, too, would like to find out about this. I am more than twice as old as Amanda and I still can't figure out who or what the Masons are, even though I have looked them up on the internet at least three times. That sort of fraternity is so far out of the realm of my experience that it makes no sense to me whatsoever. I'm sure it is the same for Amanda. I went to Catholic schools for fourteen years and never even heard of Opus Dei until Dan Brown's books came out.

I think Mach's take on this corresponds to the prosecution's firm belief that Amanda lied. They lie, so they assume she does, too. They believe in the Masons and secret codes, so she must, too.

 

[Bill Williams]

I, too, would like to find out about this. I am more than twice as old as Amanda and I still can't figure out who or what the Masons are, even though I have looked them up on the internet at least three times. That sort of fraternity is so far out of the realm of my experience that it makes no sense to me whatsoever. I'm sure it is the same for Amanda. I went to Catholic schools for fourteen years and never even heard of Opus Dei until Dan Brown's books came out.

I think Mach's take on this corresponds to the prosecution's firm belief that Amanda lied. They lie, so they assume she does, too. They believe in the Masons and secret codes, so she must, too.

Enjoy this link....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masonic_conspiracy

Of the claims that Freemasonry exerts control over politics, perhaps the best-known example is the New World Order theory, but there are others. These mainly involve aspects and agencies of the United States government, but actual events outside the US (such as the Propaganda Due scandal in Italy) are often used to lend credence to claims.

Also Hitler wrote in Mein Kampf......

"The fight which Fascist Italy waged against Jewry's three principal weapons, the profound reasons for which may not have been consciously understood (though I do not believe this myself) furnishes the best proof that the poison fangs of that Power which transcends all State boundaries are being drawn, even though in an indirect way. The prohibition of Freemasonry and secret societies, the suppression of the supernational Press and the definite abolition of Marxism, together with the steadily increasing consolidation of the Fascist concept of the State – all this will enable the Italian Government, in the course of some years, to advance more and more the interests of the Italian people without paying any attention to the hissing of the Jewish world-hydra."

 

[acbytesla]

I, too, would like to find out about this. I am more than twice as old as Amanda and I still can't figure out who or what the Masons are, even though I have looked them up on the internet at least three times. That sort of fraternity is so far out of the realm of my experience that it makes no sense to me whatsoever. I'm sure it is the same for Amanda. I went to Catholic schools for fourteen years and never even heard of Opus Dei until Dan Brown's books came out.

I think Mach's take on this corresponds to the prosecution's firm belief that Amanda lied. They lie, so they assume she does, too. They believe in the Masons and secret codes, so she must, too.

The Masons is an adult club. Like the Elks, Eagles and Rotary club. It is committed to a brotherhood of men who care about the community. There is nothing scary about them. I was a member of Demolay when I was younger, which is kind of the Jr. Masons. I never became a full fledged Mason though. Yes, they have secrets, but they aren't secrets that anyone really cares about. There is nothing nefarious about Freemasons. Most of the notorious legends surrounding the masons are made up out of whole cloth and have nothing to do with fact.

 

[RandyN]

You've said this three times now, I think, so I want make a clarification. What Randy said was this: CD asked for opinions on her article before she sent it out. I mentioned the starch issue was unrelated to 36B and that her article implied the two were related.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9553300&postcount=1477

There is a large group of supporters who are connected on Facebook. Sometimes authors of articles will post them and ask the Facebook supporters to look them over for any errors or confusion. That is what Randy is referring to. It is something that happened in the last couple of weeks; it is not related to Candace's book.

I didn't really pay attention, so I don't know whether more people offered feedback; there's usually a few. I also didn't pay attention to whether Candace made any corrections or changes.

Having met Candace several times, I have to say that there is something weird about having strong feelings against her. She's a pretty neutral person in general, I mean, she's mild-mannered and not in the least bit forceful. She was way more intimidated and scared by the guilters than I think most of us would have been. And I think if she were trying to deliberately convey false information, we would have seen a lot more examples of it along the way than we did.

Projecting ulterior motives onto Candace strikes me as similar to the guilters calling Raffaele "Knife Boy." It's kind of like calling Woody Allen Knife Boy.

Concur...my advice to CD was upon her request. I recall her reply that she had changed this in her article...nothing to do with her book btw. She did explain that Sara Gino had expressed this idea or at least alluded to that. I happen to think Sara Gino understands perfectly well the starch was unrelated to 36b...I also happen to think she could have very well implied the opposite due to a translation error.

Frank may be to blame for some small part in this...his style of writing may have alluded to someone not following the case very closely that the starch was more important than it actually was.

For me the starch was proof that the police contention of a highly cleaned knife was a lie. It still stands today as proof against that contention made by police and prosecutor. Either that or we need to believe that AK and RS are so mental that they would kill someone and then clean and continue to use this knife at breakfast the next day. And the best PGP or maybe even the prosecution has about this is that....sure they washed and reused this knife...it was inventoried by the landlord...a cheap, common knife easily picked up at any discount shop for a Euro or two.

Just one more stupid implausible, fact-less, excuse from deep within the perverted mind of Mignini. And this is just one more tiny thing, of hundreds of crazy things, that he created in the full year plus that he had to prepare and concoct his story.

I personally find all the Migninisms far more troubling while at the same time almost completely transparent. IE Arresting Lumumba and then releasing him 2 weeks later...no investigation of his place or property but then a strange closure of his bar and sole means of support for additional months...WHY?

I suggest to silence Lumumba who at the time was talking about police brutality to the press and further to "convince" him with an offer he couldn't refuse as to why it was a better idea get on board with the Mignini case.

Since Lumumba is involved in this case I think the defense should call him and ask why he has never reopened his bar, what he was told about its months long police closure...how did he feed his family, etc. Did he make a deal with the prosecution and does he deny the DM article for which he was paid a large amount of money.

Time to start turning up the heat on the rats and watching them run off and hide.

I'm betting someone (official) has started poking their noses into Mr Mignini fascination with the satanic forces that seem to control his interest and cases so strongly. I wish we could verify the Carlizzi connection. I think I am correct because this Satanic thing was already a non-issue in this case. Something is scaring him about this.

 

[Bill Williams]

I'm betting someone (official) has started poking their noses into Mr Mignini fascination with the satanic forces that seem to control his interest and cases so strongly. I wish we could verify the Carlizzi connection. I think I am correct because this Satanic thing was already a non-issue in this case. Something is scaring him about this.

It may be that Mignini fears that the Spezi thing will not go well. It may be that Mignini fears that the third Kercher murder trial with Knox and Sollecito as defendants will not go well. It may be that he fears that neither will go well for him.

Does ANYONE know when Mignini started explicitly denying the Satanic Rite claim? It seems that there was no need to deny it, really, in the first few months because it was part and parcel of the larger PR campaign/Tabloid avalanche against Knox, and to a lesser extent Sollecito (although Raffaele paid the same price in terms of loss of liberty).

It seems that there is a point somewhere, where Mignini figured out that the Satanic rite claim was no longer helping in the heavy lifting against Knox, but started to threaten him.

I agree - something in 2013 is scaring him about the Satanic Rite claim, and the connections to the psychic. In 2013.

Machiavelli is also drawing a line in the sand over it, unlike many of the other issues.

While Machiavelli is at it, can he respond to the post (upthread) quoting from Massei that the motive was Rudy's; and how much of Massei's report debunks Mignini's claim - INCLUDING the Satanic right or ANY theory, for that matter, which has Knox as anything but last minute participants?

 

[acbytesla]

A lot of Christians, particularly old world Christians have a problem with Freemasonry because to be a member, you have to believe in a higher power. But it can be any higher power. Muslim, Hindu, Jewish, Christian etc. It is a club dedicated to character building and community service. There is a shall you say a nod to the Gods but no specific God.

The other thing that bothers non members is that everything that happens in a lodge is private. It is not for non-members under any circumstance.

Political leaders hate the idea of a "private" or "secret" society among their midst possibly fomenting revolution. It frightens them. But politics is specifically verboten in a lodge. You can get kicked out for discussing political issues or affiliations.

I look at it like a kind of grown up boy scouts or a world wide fraternity.

 

[RandyN]

Coming soon...some things start to make sense when the facts are revealed...LOL.
That is all for now.


DanO did you get my PM?

 

[RandyN]

Leave it to an Italian court to believe anecdotal testimony over photographic evidence.

Close...they are actually claiming that there are photos that show glass on top. In 5 years I have yet to see one of those photos. So in fact they are outright lying about the photos or else someone has kept them well hidden...probably somewhere in those 10 thousand pages...right next to the control data sheets I suppose.

 

[acbytesla]

Coming soon...some things start to make sense when the facts are revealed...LOL.
That is all for now.

Really? You think this will ever make sense?

 

[RandyN]

This is Spezi's story. Not an admission by someone.
(Also because, btw, it is just proven that the Miilan authorities had no legal basis to put Rudy in jail - only non-Italian people ignorant about the law attempt to dispute this and buy Spezi's story).

But all this doesn't matter as for Spezi: you said you rsearched Spezi's version of the story, and Spezi needs to explain while he was caught together (having links etc.) with people from the Neaples mafia and other criminals while attempting to place false evidence against Vinci.

Spezi should actually explain also why he was attempting to sidetrack the investigation on the Monster of Florence case many years before, in another city and with other investogators. Or he might explain while apparently he was working as an informant for SISDE while pretending to be a journalist, or why the family doctor of Mr. Pacciani - the main convict in the MoF case - was also working for SISDE, and the fact that Pacciani died of a heart attack after assuming an anti-asthma medicament (potentially lethal for cardiopaths), the day before his appeal trial would start.
Ask Spezi to answer about details like those.

This is one of, if not the dumbest statement you have ever made about this case. And honestly that is really something since your arguments are fact-less nonsense for the most part or nonsensical confirmation bias at best. Good thing you are not required to present a balanced opinion backed by citations such as a true reporter or producer would be required to do. You know two separate sources and all that. Professional...something worthy of some sort of national production for example. Your argument qualifies for Mad TV at best.