Continuation Part Six: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[Bill Williams]

This seems to be coming down to a mostly semantic issue. The term, Satanic rite, can have a fairly broad definition or it can be have a literal narrow definition. If the broad definition is assumed then it would apply to a range of occult, horror related rite like activities. Arguably some of the motives Mignini suggested fit into this broad definition of Satanic rites such as the Manga comic book references and the ambiguous references to Halloween.

If the term, Satanic rite, is interpreted narrowly then it refers to a rite practiced by groups that worship Satan. Although, Mignini proposed a variety of motive theories I don't think there is any evidence that he proposed that the murders involved Satan worship or rites associated with Satan cults.

I think to sustain a claim that Mignini ever intended to ascribe a Satanic rite as his motive theory one would need to either find a direct quote by him using the term or one would need to find references that come much closer to the narrow definition of Satanic rite that seem to be available. As such it looks to me like Grinder is correct here.

Machiavell's claims go a bit beyond the semantic issue if I understand him correctly. He proposes that Mignini was not involved in the early lurid descriptions of the crime and that Mignini's silence about the early lurid theories of the crime are not an accurate indicator of what Mignini was actually saying about the crime. Machiavelli also proposes that the use of the Halloween in Mignini's court statement had to do with the timing of the crime and didn't have anything to do with what Mignini was proposing as to the nature of the crime.

I doubt that Machiavelli is correct here, but is it possible to be sure? My assumption that the early sensationalistic media coverage of this crime was orchestrated by Mignini, but is this knowable or even correct? It might be, but it is definitely not known to be true by me.

Dave - when we get together in Orange County on my next visit we can discuss this.

I think it is more than semantics. I think that the reason why, in 2008, Mignini was not forceful in debunking then, what is now considered at best "a semantic issue", is that he simply allowed (then) the Satanic rite thing to play its course in the media. He most certainly did not complain back then.... it was doing it's work against Amanda Knox.

You see, my question is - why is Mignini now complaining about this in Oct 2013?

It's because the Satanic rite theory is now doing the opposite - it is casting Mr. Mignini in disrepute, now that the urge to sluttify this case has passed.

No one seems to want to answer the question - why is Mignini now complaining about the use of the Satanic Rite theory, when he didn't in 2008?

The answer to that is more interesting....

 

[acbytesla]

The test is velocity, from below the angle reduces below requirement for the glass shard impalement, simple physics, and the corollary is that if the rock must have been heaved horizontally from the car park to deliver the glass shard "like a bullet" as an independent acquaintance observed, then it would never have been sensible for Raff, with a dead body en cottage, and totally impossible for AK, as Katy did and Rose M attest.

Thanks Samson, I understand the argument, I still am skeptical that sufficient velocity would not be easy for Rudy or pretty much any adult male. But as I said before, Ron is an expert in these matters, so I would defer to him.

 

[RoseMontague]

Know what?

What I said is correct information about the reason given by the association for mentioning Mignini's name: his presence at a conference at the University of Foreigneers.

This was somtehing you didn't know.

Why do you say instead I don't know? What's there to know?

You said he was part of a gathering there and that there were other things going on. Is he a member of that group or not? If you don't know, say so.

 

[acbytesla]

Cute. That's what they used to say about Hitler, too. BTW: Hitler was Austrian. Coincidence? I think not.

Really Diocletus? Hitler was an Austrian, Hitler was a monster, Perugia use to be in the Austrian Hungary Empire, therefore Mignini is a monster? Hey, I think Mignini is a scumbag. But this correlation is way over the top.

 

[acbytesla]

Tesla she lied. The DNA was not starch. Randy had told her that before she published the book. If people wish to call Vogt a liar then I will call Dempsey a liar. It is more possible that when Amanda said "I was there" she meant the cottage than the DNA was starch. Now, I believe that the DNA can't be shown to be on the knife because it was used to murder Meredith but that isn't the same thing.

She said that the DNA turned out to be starch and not one expert for the defense or independent said that or I'm sure you would show me. She is either a nitwit or she knows that her statement was false.

In the same article she calls the judge "Dr. No". If you can't see that she is trying to make the case for Amanda and Raf and will say anything, I fear you have tunnel vision.

As Mach hasd pointed out she used him for translations because she isn't that fluent in the language or wasn't when this started which just adds more mystery to why Penguin would sign her up unless she had something no other writer had to offer.

No, it's not a lie. Do you really think a newspaper editor or a judge would order a retraction over that distinction?? No, they wouldn't. Literally, Candace is incorrect, DNA is not starch. But what was found on the important knife was starch, not the victims DNA. You are stubbornly refusing to acknowledge that Candace is implying.

I would say that it is you that had tunnel vision. You refuse to see the forest because you are examining the bark on one of the trees.

 

[RoseMontague]

This is Spezi's story. Not an admission by someone.

In which he quotes Mignini in an interview with Bob Graham. Are you saying that Mignini didn't say that if he were the Prosecutor in Milan he would have had Rudy arrested? Are you saing that Mignini never said that Rudy could have been a police informant?

 

[Grinder]

It's going to be very difficult to recover assets once they are transferred. Even if a legal action is achieved, you won't recover the money in practice. Sollecito's assets have not even been frozen as far as I know, so by now everything could be gone.
Sollecito may also transfer the assets to a family member.

I agree with Machiavelli. There is no chance that any if the plaintiffs will be able to recover any existing assets from the deFendants. Maybe future publication rights, whatever they might be worth.

So in Italy people never pay judgments they just transfer ownership of all their assets?

To me this is another short coming of the Italian system.

 

[Diocletus]

Thanks Samson, I understand the argument, I still am skeptical that sufficient velocity would not be easy for Rudy or pretty much any adult male. But as I said before, Ron is an expert in these matters, so I would defer to him.

Well, I was just thinking along the lines that hitler was a sexually repressed extremist and a pervert. He was also quite unjust. And a jerk.

Don't believe that the Austrians ever had perugia, but I could be wrong. Why would they have wanted it?

 

[Diocletus]

So in Italy people never pay judgments they just transfer ownership of all their assets?

To me this is another short coming of the Italian system.

What assets? Sollecito and Knox had no assets. They were students. Knox made some money with her book, but I can guaranty you that it's out of the reach of any creditor.

 

[Grinder]

Good for you. I am not asking Mach to provide the court documents, Mach says he HAS the court documents which demonstrate this. Once again, he makes the assertion and does not provide proof.

Machiavelli has confirmed that Barbie Nadeau believes the Satanic theory was in play. He calls her a liar. He also confirms that John Kercher thought the "controversial" Satanic theory was in play. Fortunately Machiavelli does not call Kercher a liar, just says he is misinformed.

I do not believe I have this ass-backwards. Machiavelli already says he has the documents. He's unwilling to provide them.

Every journalist early on reported on Mignini's theories, as they were variously leaked to the press.... were they all wrong? Machiavelli wants a list of Italian journalists who said this.... gee, I wonder why?

Do you not understand that a negative is nearly alwyas impossible to prove. You ignore my point that if Mach provided the transcript he has you would just say that he left out the quote or that Mignini must have said it elswhere.

Since Dempsey is a great source according to you and accessible, why don't you ask her to provide the source. I'm sure she would have it.

Ask her or Barbie for the transcripts. Ask Bruce or the FOA.

 

[Kaosium]

I have not thought of this before what you write of Maresca. Interesting.

What makes you think it's relevant? Do you suppose all rape murder convictions in Italy only amount to 16 year sentences, or have you figured out yet just how PMF and TJMK were lying about neither Mignini or Maresca having any responsibility for the final sentence Rudy received?

Hint: The fast track mitigation is just one factor in the equation. There was a reason they focused attention on that.

What persuades me of the good character of Mignini is that he is an Italian prosecutor who is speaking (and prosecuting a case) on behalf of a young English woman who can no longer speak for herself. I think when he walked into her room and saw her murdered, and found out she was away from her family and country he was motivated to bring about justice on her behalf. His thoughts were of and about Meredith (as are the thoughts of many prosecutors who speak on behalf of victims and bring those who they feel are responsible to trial).

By making a public circus of the case with his theory before Matteini which was responsible for making this tabloid fare? You've probably seen that TV (SBS?) interview with Pisa, Nadeau and Vogt where they acknowledged the excessive interest was generated by that November 8th report from Matteini's court, based on nothing that was actually relevant to the murder. Only a freak-show theorist would attempt to extrapolate from students smoking pot, a manga comic and a year-old blog entry to a conclusion of a sex-game gone wrong. Hint: what percentage of students in Perugia do you suppose you could find the same or even worse?

It was responsible for ensuring that Meredith's lifestyle in Perugia was broadcast to the four corners of the earth whether Mignini recast her role or not. No, there is something known as discretion and whatever airs Mignini puts on, he doesn't walk the walk he talks.

 

[Kaosium]

What assets? Sollecito and Knox had no assets. They were students. Knox made some money with her book, but I can guaranty you that it's out of the reach of any creditor.

Raffaele was left property worth some 3 million Euros; Alan Dershowitz seemed to think the Kerchers could file a civil suit and confiscate the money from Amanda's book.

 

[Grinder]

No, it's not a lie. Do you really think a newspaper editor or a judge would order a retraction over that distinction?? No, they wouldn't. Literally, Candace is incorrect, DNA is not starch. But what was found on the important knife was starch, not the victims DNA. You are stubbornly refusing to acknowledge that Candace is implying.

I would say that it is you that had tunnel vision. You refuse to see the forest because you are examining the bark on one of the trees.

Tesla I truly marvel at the partisan positions both sides take.

1. an intentionally false statement.

Yes I think a news editor that was doing his job would retract the statement. Judges don't order retractions. If Dempsey named the person that claimed starch was DNA I think she could be successfully sued in Italy.

The evidence is clear and Dempsey claims to be an expert on the case. Randy added to the obvious by telling us that he had informed her of the "mistake" before she published her book.

The statement that the DNA turned out to be starch is perfectly clear. As for the failed tree/forrest metaphor, the devil is in the details so maybe you should look a tree once in a while. What was found on the knife was Amanda's DNA and Meredith's DNA. The experts differed on how the DNA arrived on the knife.

It is clear what she is saying (not implying) and that is that the prosecution claimed that starch was DNA.

Mental midget or liar, your choice.

 

[acbytesla]

Well, I was just thinking along the lines that hitler was a sexually repressed extremist and a pervert. He was also quite unjust. And a jerk.

Don't believe that the Austrians ever had perugia, but I could be wrong. Why would they have wanted it?

I'm not sure I'd call Hitler a pervert or sexually repressed. A monster, no doubt. Cruel and a jerk...well that goes without saying.

Hitler was greatly responsible for the deaths of 12 million people. Killing homosexuals, Gypsies, Jews, the infirm, etc. etc. etc. While I can't stand Mignini, equating him to Hitler is really taking hyperbole to another level. Mignini is a peon of a monster compared to Hitler. I don't want to elevate Mignini to that status.

I wouldn't know about Perugia and whether or not it was ever part of the Austria-Hungarian Empire. I know the Perugia like a lot of Italian towns was it's own walled fiefdom. Maybe Mach can provide us with a little Perugia history.

 

[Grinder]

What assets? Sollecito and Knox had no assets. They were students. Knox made some money with her book, but I can guaranty you that it's out of the reach of any creditor.

Supposedly Raf had real estate that was left to him by his mother, IIRC.

Mach said that they could move assets to the Cayman's in a trust and you agreed with him.

 

[acbytesla]

Raffaele was left property worth some 3 million Euros; Alan Dershowitz seemed to think the Kerchers could file a civil suit and confiscate the money from Amanda's book.

Dershowitz is an attention seeking moron. There are very few people that I have heard discuss this case publicly with less knowledge about the case.

 

[Grinder]

Dershowitz is an attention seeking moron. There are very few people that I have heard discuss this case publicly with less knowledge about the case.

Dershowitz is a moron? I don't think so.

 

[Bill Williams]

Do you not understand that a negative is nearly alwyas impossible to prove. You ignore my point that if Mach provided the transcript he has you would just say that he left out the quote or that Mignini must have said it elswhere.

Since Dempsey is a great source according to you and accessible, why don't you ask her to provide the source. I'm sure she would have it.

Ask her or Barbie for the transcripts. Ask Bruce or the FOA.

Please don't accuse me of something I have not done. It is Mach who says he has the transcripts which prove me wrong. Let him post them, THEN you can accuse me of mistreating him.

Besides the issue isn't really this anyway. Mignin did not complain in 2008 nor then call Nadeau a liar and Mr Kercher mistaken. Why? Because it served his PR campaign back then , which was largely successful.

The point, I repeat, why in 2013 is this a line in the sand?

 

[acbytesla]

Tesla I truly marvel at the partisan positions both sides take.

1. an intentionally false statement.

Yes I think a news editor that was doing his job would retract the statement. Judges don't order retractions. If Dempsey named the person that claimed starch was DNA I think she could be successfully sued in Italy.

The evidence is clear and Dempsey claims to be an expert on the case. Randy added to the obvious by telling us that he had informed her of the "mistake" before she published her book.

The statement that the DNA turned out to be starch is perfectly clear. As for the failed tree/forrest metaphor, the devil is in the details so maybe you should look a tree once in a while. What was found on the knife was Amanda's DNA and Meredith's DNA. The experts differed on how the DNA arrived on the knife.

It is clear what she is saying (not implying) and that is that the prosecution claimed that starch was DNA.

Mental midget or liar, your choice.

I laugh when you say this is a partisan position. This has NOTHING to do with Amanda and Raffaele's guilt or innocence. This is such a minor point. But it is the product of your own nitpicking obsession. None of the PGP, not even Machiavelli has joined you in this absurd argument.

In fact saying that Candace is lying or a mental midget says more about you than it does about Candace. 99% of the people reading her article understand exactly what Candace is saying. Perhaps you should look up the word implication. Are you stubborn or just dense?

im·pli·ca·tion: the conclusion that can be drawn from something, although it is not explicitly stated.

 

[acbytesla]

Dershowitz is a moron? I don't think so.

OK, he is acting moronically. Better??