Continuation Part Six: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[Mary_H]

Here is the article I mentioned earlier that Barbie wrote about Italy's poor treatment of women (It appeared in Newseek as well).

http://web.archive.org/web/20120106...ga-nation-berlusconi-s-italy-hurts-women.html

Thanks, Rose. That's a real eye-opener that everyone should read; Barbie did a good job. Did the police really follow up on it?

 

[acbytesla]

Let me phrase this correctly.

If you walk trough Perugia you will see that it appears Mignini is highly popular. The people defer to the man who routinely files charges against innocent citizens. Proof of this is the extremely high and ridiculous number of sub-related cases filed by Mignini in the Kercher murder...particularly the part where he is trying to prosecute two innocent persons.

Don't you understand? They have to bow down to this fat idiot. He will abuse his office and create a legal nightmare for anyone trying to even ask a question with which he has a problem. Not a religious man. A devil hiding in a religious haze.

Count up the cases against lawyers, reporters, newspapers, defendants, defendants parents, bloggers like Frank, book authors. Mignini has made himself into a joke just as he has made your judicial system into a joke. Admittedly he has had lots of help with the latter.

You have wonder about all the people that avoid him like the plague. People sucked up to Generalismo Franco in Spain, Stalin in the USSR, Hitler in Germany and Mussolini in Italy as well. I'm sure that all those that Mignini wrongly accused in the MOF case surely don't like him either.

 

[RandyN]

No. Sorry, I'm not interested in this, I think this is unimportant, because the evidence does not lie in this. Something instead I think is important, is the evidence of their subsequent clen-up activity (and cleaning themselves).
Another thing I think is important is the presence of three towels completely soaked in blood in the murder's room.


No you can't.
This is the problem. There is no single-perpetrator scenario that fits the evidence.
Nor the autopsy report, nor the timings (related to details like the towels), nor the luminol prints, nor the shoeprints from Rudy, nor Knox's lamp, nor the bathmat print (and its actual measurements), etc.

This is exactly why you or any guilter refuses to even attempt a time line that fits facts. We can hammer you with the truth which shows the level of fraud in your baseless claims. For example. There are not three towels "completely soaked in blood" this is a lie on your part and actually a rather pointless lie too.

We have presented the timeline that fits all facts that includes Guede alone. Nothing in the autopsy report indicates anything that would confirm more than one attacker. Stefanoni lied in court about "bloody" luminol prints. The TMB tests she lied about prove these prints are NOT from blood. The bathmat print is clearly Guedes except to the deluded. Tells us what the Knox lamp indicates. The shoe prints from Rudy indicate he was alone. Others would have disrupted the wet bloody prints he left behind. They are not disrupted therefore he was alone.

DO you consider yourself smarter than the average Italian, the same, or dumber? More logical, the same , or less logical?

As for what you have brought to the case discussion here on JREF? The humor in the sheer ridiculousness of your arguments has certainly upped the laugh factor. Beyond that we have learned little factually. Meanwhile we can look deep inside the Italian thought process. That is enough to keep me away from Italy forever. Even though I would love to see the Colosseum. Oh well...I can get far better pizza in New York. Less chance of having my pocket picked as well. Trade offs....

 

[Samson]

The rock was not too heavy for Rudy from down below or from the car park. Katy thinks she wouldn't have been able to throw it through the window from below. But it would have been easy for just about everyone from the car park.

For some reason people have never focussed on the complete and incontrovertible defence available to AK and RS. Ron Hendry posted the photograph of the embedded glass shard, but did not elaborate. The most basic thought experiment entails imagining hurling glass fragments at a hardwood shutter. The velocity required is completely outside of what would be achieved from the ground below. The lob would fail the velocity requirement. An horizontal heave like Valerie Adams, reigning world champion female shotputter from the carpark by a semi professional basketballer, where accuracy and one chance for success meant an adrenaline fuelled delivery would mean that the glass shard, might impale, and I personally imagine this would only happen occasionally, like a hole in one by professional golfers on a 200 metre par 3. Mach will never respond, because no body does to this incontrovertible scientific conundrum supporting AK and RS non involvement.

 

[acbytesla]

For some reason people have never focussed on the complete and incontrovertible defence available to AK and RS. Ron Hendry posted the photograph of the embedded glass shard, but did not elaborate. The most basic thought experiment entails imagining hurling glass fragments at a hardwood shutter. The velocity required is completely outside of what would be achieved from the ground below. The lob would fail the velocity requirement. An horizontal heave like Valerie Adams, reigning world champion female shotputter from the carpark by a semi professional basketballer, where accuracy and one chance for success meant an adrenaline fuelled delivery would mean that the glass shard, might impale, and I personally imagine this would only happen occasionally, like a hole in one by professional golfers on a 200 metre par 3. Mach will never respond, because no body does to this incontrovertible scientific conundrum supporting AK and RS non involvement.

I'm not going to say that Ron Hendry is wrong. This is Ron's expertise. While I think it would be very easy from the car park to make that throw, I find it difficult to believe that an adult male couldn't create enough velocity from below. But then again so much depends on the window pane. I would love to test that over and over again with multiple windows and a high speed camera.

Oh well.

 

[Antony]

The rock was not too heavy for Rudy from down below or from the car park. Katy thinks she wouldn't have been able to throw it through the window from below. But it would have been easy for just about everyone from the car park.

IMO the car park is much more likely as the throwing point. Am I right in thinking that the position from which the rock was taken, was identified in the line of the car park boundary markers? Why would a perpetrator pick up the rock from the car park then carry it all the way down to the space under the window, when the throwing point is right nearby and much easier?

There is no good reason other than first perceptions to assume that the rock was thrown from underneath the window, especially when we realise it was taken from the car park.

 

[Samson]

I'm not going to say that Ron Hendry is wrong. This is Ron's expertise. While I think it would be very easy from the car park to make that throw, I find it difficult to believe that an adult male couldn't create enough velocity from below. But then again so much depends on the window pane. I would love to test that over and over again with multiple windows and a high speed camera.

Oh well.

The test is velocity, from below the angle reduces below requirement for the glass shard impalement, simple physics, and the corollary is that if the rock must have been heaved horizontally from the car park to deliver the glass shard "like a bullet" as an independent acquaintance observed, then it would never have been sensible for Raff, with a dead body en cottage, and totally impossible for AK, as Katy did and Rose M attest.

 

[bri1]

I have not thought of this before what you write of Maresca. Interesting.

What persuades me of the good character of Mignini is that he is an Italian prosecutor who is speaking (and prosecuting a case) on behalf of a young English woman who can no longer speak for herself. I think when he walked into her room and saw her murdered, and found out she was away from her family and country he was motivated to bring about justice on her behalf. His thoughts were of and about Meredith (as are the thoughts of many prosecutors who speak on behalf of victims and bring those who they feel are responsible to trial).

All this could be true about Mignini (and I think it probably is) but it wouldn't amount to 'good character'. He can be outraged about the crime, have great intentions to find justice for Meredith, but if he is so stupid that he can't do a competent job, then the right thing to do would be step down. He demonstrates massive flaws intellectually and makes serious mistakes in his work, and instead of displaying a modicum of self-awareness and inward critique, he covers up his mistakes. All of this is compatible with your assessment, yet it makes Mignini a bad prosecutor and of bad character.

I do youth work for a living, and part of that, for me, is questioning and critiquing myself, and doing the same with my colleagues. When you do work that directly affects the lives of others, you have a moral imperative to do so in a self-conscious and self-critical way. Otherwise you can still have good intentions but still mess up people's lives.

 

[RoseMontague]

Thanks, Rose. That's a real eye-opener that everyone should read; Barbie did a good job. Did the police really follow up on it?

Yes, related to a similar article, here is the link where she details the police intimidation.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2011/04/18/berlusconis-war-against-the-press.html?cid=tag:all1

 

[RoseMontague]

A couple of Google translated quotes from Spezi on the issue of Rudy as a police informant....

Of course, part of the game, no authority would admit
the circumstance, but the truth, or something very close, it is
possible to arrive by inference. Fu, for example, the surprising
behavior of the police and the public prosecutor Mignini,
when, just put in circulation the name of Rudy Guedé
as implicated in the murder Kercher, a clever journalist
Mediaset, Anna Boiardi, he began looking for a picture of the
Ivorian boy, as the police, strangely, it 's had
provided to journalists, as it always does, especially when it comes to
a fugitive. Since in Italy it is mandatory to leave a photocopy
of an identity document if you want to use the services of a
Internet Point, Boiardi went to look at what Guedé
attended. So he had the photo and published it. The thing
interesting was that the reporter learned that the police
Perugia had already been in that 'Internet Point, had seen the
photography, which was the only one of the sought after, but did not take it.
Then, when Mediaset aired the photo, the police
was very angry with the journalist. Mignini sent even the
its agents in Milan for perquisirle the house, it is not known to the research
of what, and placed under investigation for "attempted break
public service ", the offense which he used dozens of times in the
against journalists uncomfortable.

Graham asked the magistrate if it appeared that
Guedé was an informer.
"I can not say - replied the magistrate - if Guedé was a
police informant, but would not be unusual for a man
with its past. However - he added - it has no
importance in this case. "
But, he wrote Graham, he admitted, like other public
Italian officials listened to, that should have been in Guedé
prison when Meredith was murdered.
Graham wanted to know more and tried to clarify what
had happened in Milan and because Guedé had been released and
Free returned to Perugia. A secretary of the Public Prosecutor
Vulpio Maria, who had dealt with the case, he admitted: "We
received a communication from the Perugia police of
put it on the train and make it back without charge to its
load ".
Graham said to the secretary if this treatment
Special was given to the boy because he was an Ivorian
informant.
"I do not know ... It 's the kind of things that happen in those cases ...".
In an 'other interview Mignini attempted to remove from each if
suspicion: "If I was the prosecutor of Milan, 'I
arrested. It 'was a mistake by the magistrate in Milan, it is their fault
if it was free. " He added: "When his name came out as
involved in 'murder Kercher, asked him who he was. The police
said it appeared to be responsible for minor offenses that do not
did they go to court. For this I am not surprised that
may have been an informant. "

These quotes are from The Witch of Perugia by Spezi and Preston.

What you have in that last quote is an admission from the Milan authorities that Rudy would have been in jail if not for the intervention of the Perugian authorities. I wonder if the Kercher family is aware of this?

 

[RoseMontague]

Sorry, Mignini is mentioned on their site, only as one of the persons taking part to a conference together with maybe a hundred mentioned on the same site page.

The event was a conference also gathering "traditionalist associations" to listen to a discussion about the old times of Austrian Trieste and its culture; the event was organized by the City of Trieste, by a Spanish University, and the University for Foreigneers of Perugia where it took place. Five university professors were speaking about the history and culture of Trieste when it was part of the Austro-Hungarian Empire.

We are talking about cultural activities organized at the same place where Amanda went to school.

Actually, all this does not mean anything to me, except that Mignini has an interest in local history, cultures and traditions, that he may be a traditionalist, and he may attend academic conferences when they take place at a ten minutes walk from where he lives.

Sounds like you don't really know. That surprises me.

 

[LondonJohn]

All this could be true about Mignini (and I think it probably is) but it wouldn't amount to 'good character'. He can be outraged about the crime, have great intentions to find justice for Meredith, but if he is so stupid that he can't do a competent job, then the right thing to do would be step down. He demonstrates massive flaws intellectually and makes serious mistakes in his work, and instead of displaying a modicum of self-awareness and inward critique, he covers up his mistakes. All of this is compatible with your assessment, yet it makes Mignini a bad prosecutor and of bad character.

I do youth work for a living, and part of that, for me, is questioning and critiquing myself, and doing the same with my colleagues. When you do work that directly affects the lives of others, you have a moral imperative to do so in a self-conscious and self-critical way. Otherwise you can still have good intentions but still mess up people's lives.

Exactly. And anyhow, the idealistic aim for any prosecutor is NOT to act "on behalf of the victim(s)" - that's a massive and destructive misconception. Rather, the proper idealistic aim is to act to ensure that justice is correctly applied - there should be just as much consideration to ensure that the suspect(s) is/are treated fairly and justly. Criminal prosecutors act on behalf of all the people, not just the victim.

Of course, even this is no more than an idealistic aim. In practice, unfortunately, prosecutors tend to have an inbuilt tendency to pursue defendants - often to levels beyond the fair application of justice. A basic understanding of psychology and human behaviour can explain this phenomenon: firstly, prosecutors tend to judge themselves (and, importantly, tend to be judged by others) by how "successful" they are in securing convictions; secondly, an adversarial system naturally tends to push arguing positions more towards the extremes; and thirdly, if prosecutors (and police, for that matter) believe that the defendant is the perpetrator, they can often believe that the end justifies the means in securing a conviction - even if this results in extra-judicial malpractice.

In Mignini's (and Comodi's) case, however, there seems to me to be behaviour over and above this. I think that Mignini in particular developed a zealous and pompous need to be "seen to be correct" on this case, owing perhaps to the fact that it was extremely high-profile (and also perhaps because the Perugia authorities had been widely castigated for their failures in a similar case a year previously). I think that once Mignini had tied himself into believing - genuinely, if misguidedly, in my opinion - that he and the police had identified the perps and figured out how and why the murder occurred, he became stubbornly unshakeable from his position.

I believe that Mignini (and the police and other prosecutors) thought that since they "knew" that Knox and Sollecito were involved, everything else was just noise, and that every piece of seemingly exculpatory evidence against Knox/Sollecito was either incorrect or could be explained away in terms that still rendered them guilty. This of course is just another definition of an extreme combination of tunnel vision, confirmation bias and personal vanity; and I think it's exactly what happened in this case.

 

[Diocletus]

A couple of Google translated quotes from Spezi on the issue of Rudy as a police informant....

These quotes are from The Witch of Perugia by Spezi and Preston.

What you have in that last quote is an admission from the Milan authorities that Rudy would have been in jail if not for the intervention of the Perugian authorities. I wonder if the Kercher family is aware of this?

The Kercher family wouldn't care. They've already decided what their version of the truth is, facts be damned.

 

[Dan O.]

IMO the car park is much more likely as the throwing point. Am I right in thinking that the position from which the rock was taken, was identified in the line of the car park boundary markers? Why would a perpetrator pick up the rock from the car park then carry it all the way down to the space under the window, when the throwing point is right nearby and much easier?

There is no good reason other than first perceptions to assume that the rock was thrown from underneath the window, especially when we realise it was taken from the car park.

The origin of the rock has never been provided. I have speculated that based on a lack of a recent dirt boundary line on the rock it has been out of the ground for some time. Use as a marker on the car park would still have made contaact with the bare ground and left a noticible sign on the rock. This however is not conclusive as I can only observe the available photos.


A rock of this size would be usefull as a door stop to keep a screen door or security gate that isn't being used propped open or to hold something down such as the similar rock on the bin beside the shed.

 

[Diocletus]

Sorry, Mignini is mentioned on their site, only as one of the persons taking part to a conference together with maybe a hundred mentioned on the same site page.

The event was a conference also gathering "traditionalist associations" to listen to a discussion about the old times of Austrian Trieste and its culture; the event was organized by the City of Trieste, by a Spanish University, and the University for Foreigneers of Perugia where it took place. Five university professors were speaking about the history and culture of Trieste when it was part of the Austro-Hungarian Empire.

We are talking about cultural activities organized at the same place where Amanda went to school.

Actually, all this does not mean anything to me, except that Mignini has an interest in local history, cultures and traditions, that he may be a traditionalist, and he may attend academic conferences when they take place at a ten minutes walk from where he lives.

Cute. That's what they used to say about Hitler, too. BTW: Hitler was Austrian. Coincidence? I think not.

 

[LondonJohn]

The Kercher family wouldn't care. They've already decided what their version of the truth is, facts be damned.

That, to me, is one of the sadder aspects of this whole sorry saga. I think that the Kerchers became emotionally wedded to the prosecution case early on. This was understandable, given the combination of grief, confusion, language/culture barriers, media support/complicity, and apparent judicial validation.

I think that anything that now contradicts this version of the crime probably triggers cognitive dissonance in them. I think the easiest way for them to deal with any cognitive dissonance is to decide that the prosecutors are correct and that any other voices are wrong or biased.

 

[Supernaut]

Perhaps neither Knox nor Potter is guilty of stabbing Kercher. Evidence certainly suggests that. I disagree that you can state as fact that they are innocent in this crime.

Care to provide an example of something - anything - that you can "state as fact"?

 

[Grinder]

As long as you accept Barbie Nadeau as an "Italian source"... it's in her book.

I don't consider Vogt, Dempsey or Nadeau Italian sources or any of the other English speakers that publish in non-Italian.

Ask yourself this question - why now? Why does Mignini feel a need to defend himself from this in 2013 if it is such a lame, obviously wrong allegation?

Because, he thinks that certain people will become obsessed with it as a distraction and miss spending time poking holes in the case.

He wants to pretend to be a victim of malicious slander. From Spezi, Amanda, and Raffaele. He is seeking justification through court proceedings against them. Poor Mignini. Everybody talks bad about him. He probably loses sleep at night or something.

No fan of the man, but if he had said these things on any sort of official or attributable quote, I doubt he would be filing this in court.

If he said satanic rite, if that's what the case is actually about, why would he bring it up ever. Did Mach bring this up as a major point or was it in response to someone?

ETA - is this just about the letter after Spezi had something published? Then it wouldn't just be coming out of no where.

 

[Supernaut]

......
It's not the wide band that cuts but the edge of the band material that used to be covered where the strap was sewn to it being suddenly pulled out of his hand when the clasp breaks away.

I'm not sure about that - the strap could have stretched considerably and pulled away from her back, sliding a few inches through his hand as did so without breaking.

I'm pretty sure I've inflicted something similar on myself in the past trying and failing to snap something with a yank (not a bra, I hasten to add).

Whatever, essentially we're postulating that these marks on Guede's hand might be 'friction burns' which didn't bleed at all.

 

[Grinder]

Seriously Grinder? You are back on this one? Dempsey's point is NOT a lie. It may not be as precise as you would like, but it is definitely not a lie. Dempsey's main point is right on. There is no DNA of Meredith's on the blade of that knife. And they did find starch on that blade. You're nitpicking. Dempsey is not deliberately obfuscating the salient facts. On the other hand, Barbie and Andrea are.

Tesla she lied. The DNA was not starch. Randy had told her that before she published the book. If people wish to call Vogt a liar then I will call Dempsey a liar. It is more possible that when Amanda said "I was there" she meant the cottage than the DNA was starch. Now, I believe that the DNA can't be shown to be on the knife because it was used to murder Meredith but that isn't the same thing.

She said that the DNA turned out to be starch and not one expert for the defense or independent said that or I'm sure you would show me. She is either a nitwit or she knows that her statement was false.

In the same article she calls the judge "Dr. No". If you can't see that she is trying to make the case for Amanda and Raf and will say anything, I fear you have tunnel vision.

As Mach hasd pointed out she used him for translations because she isn't that fluent in the language or wasn't when this started which just adds more mystery to why Penguin would sign her up unless she had something no other writer had to offer.