Continuation Part Six: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[katy_did]

Yes, I have. Men's upper body strength is on average a lot stronger than women so don't take it like you are wimpy. You might be average for a woman in that department. Yes it would have been easier from the car park, but I don't think it would have prohibitively difficult for an adult man to throw the rock from below.

OK thanks, happy to take your word for it on that one. Rudy was a basketball player too, of course, which might make throwing the rock from below easier.

 

[Bill Williams]

me and Grinder.

Grinder has to pay for his own meal.... that's what he's mad about. You, I will pay for yours.

Truthfully, Machiavelli, I'll cut to the chase here. Why is ANY of this important in Oct 2013? Why is the fact that Barbie Nadeau wrote that Mignini advanced a Satanic rite theory years ago, why is the fact that John Kercher wrote that Mignini advanced a Satanic rite a year ago ....

...... at all important?

I think I know why. But I'd like to hear it from you - because Mr. Mignini himself is writing to editors bringing the subject up - and as far as I know, I'm the ONLY one talking about it in Oct 2013. And I am truly a nobody in relation to this. All I have is a keyboard, internet access and an opinion. That's friggin' all! If you'd just swallow your pride and swallow some dinner with me, you'd come to that conclusion fairly quickly yourself!!!

Why is THIS a line in the sand in Oct 2013, one where you'd throw Barbie Nadeau under a bus for, and one where you would cast aspersions against Mr. Kercher for writing as he did?

Why?

Esp. when you claim to have the very transcript which would prove me wrong about what was said in 2008.... but....

Why is this AT ALL relevant in Oct 2013? I think I know the answer (cf. Billy Ryan) but I think you're entitled to a crack at the issue before I start putting words into your mouth.....

....... ah, er, posts via your "pseudo". You so far won't let me put even food into your mouth.

(So why'd you brag so much about the wine you'd offer, and THEN turn me down?)

 

[katy_did]

Those are the outer shutters, not the inner. Hellmann has the quote on the inner shutters, IIRC.

Just checked and you're right. From memory I think the state of the inner shutters was similar, in that she said she'd pulled them towards the window but hadn't actually fastened them closed.

 

[RoseMontague]

I didn't ask you if you believe Spezi (even if he says Umbria is the only Italian region that doesn't border the sea, so cutting off four regions with 15 millions inhabitants).
Because Spezi never speaks about the topics for which he is currently indicted.

He was caught by the Florentine police together with a mobster called Ruocco and a corrupt ex-police officer called Zaccaria, while he was attempting to place false evidence against an innocent parson, called Vinci.

Did you research whether he has ties with Neapolitan mafia members or other criminals, or whehter he was actually caught by the Florentine police doing these things?

I have his side of the story and believe me, I will be posting it.

 

[yimyammer]

Those are the outer shutters, not the inner. Hellmann has the quote on the inner shutters, IIRC.

oops, took a shot

 

[RoseMontague]

OK thanks, happy to take your word for it on that one. Rudy was a basketball player too, of course, which might make throwing the rock from below easier.

The rock was 8.8lbs according to Dempsey's book. The ISC seems to be confused with different weights listed. That is the weight of a women's shot put. The record for women is over 60 feet from what I remember.

 

[RoseMontague]

The last chapter on Mignini the liar's career will be about the men who finally brought him down,and Spezi will be one of them

Yes. I feel the same way.

 

[Supernaut]

We have gone over this at length. The autopsy report shows minor bruising in the extremities, fingertip bruises on the right side of the jaw from a left hand covering the victim's face, puncture wounds on the right side of the neck, and a slash wound on the left side of the neck made by plunging a small knife to the hilt and then pulling, up and from left to right. All of this is perfectly explained by a victim struggling against an attacker who was holding her from behind with a knife in his right hand. No other explanation makes sense, so I can fully understand why you don't want to get into the details. (...)

Details of the autopsy are very different, my friend. The crime does not consist in a stabbing.
There is a lot to talk about.

The decision that "something" has no relevance to the crime and will have to remain "random" (actually: unexplained) it's obviously arbitrary.

Complete and utter gibberish!

ETA >> literally, "gibberish".

And the admins are content to let clowns spam the JREF forums to their heart's content.

It does the "James Randi Educational Foundation" such credit!

Unfortunately, I can't call Machiavelli an emotionally stunted, neurotic, lying piece of manure, because that would break the JREF TOS.

 

[Machiavelli]

Why hello, Machiavelli! It must get old defending Mignini from charges he theorized about satanism, or ritualistic comic sex games, or demonic bathroom fixtures or whatever. (...)

Charges that he did not theorize.

Now, as for Trono e Altare, I don't know it; anyway I have no proof that Mignini had any link to it. There is only Spezi's claim. I'm rather sure Mignini has no contact with them in the present times.
I knew instead that for a while he had contacts with the group Alleanza Cattolica, which is a group that I happen to know. It can be defined as a Catholic fundamentalist assocation (their views are not different from those shared by many US Republican congressmen). Basically their activity consists in having an ideological journal.
I knew that Mignini had contacts with the group years ago and he wrote one article that was published in the journal; since I was curious, I searhced read Mignini's short essay. I found the article had nothing actually religious, nor ideological, nor extremist. It was an essay of local history. I discovered that Mignini's hobby is local historiography.

I hold the views of association Alleanza Cattolica as politically unacceptable or anyway wrong and incompatible with mine.
However, what I see is how these topics are totally pointless. We are not interested in Mignini's political views. I don't share political nor philosopical, ideological views with millions of people. To me, the fact that a person attends Alleanza Cattolica is something that does not sound 'good' about the person because I'm not sympathetic with that association.
But other people may not be sympathetic with other groups and parties.
It is also objectively very easy to attack someone because he overtly attends or attended unpopular groups or has unpopular political views.
But this does not actually have any logical implication.

Moreover, it is pointless if you consider that Knox was prosecuted by Manuela Comodi who is a leftist, the president of the local syndacate of magistrates and close to the Democratic party. Judge Paolo Micheli attends a Communist Party. Giulia Bongiorno was the member of a conservative group leaded by a former neo-fascist, while instead Pratillo Hellmann is a right-winger and supporter of Berlusconi. Dalla Vedova's brother is a parlamentarian in a very moderate centre party, but was a former comrade of Bongiorno.
All these lables are misleading and superficial.
Just if you walk trough Perugia, you would see that Mignini is highly popular. Very much trusted and respected, and regarded as very honest.
This, is not because Perugians are Catholic, nor monarchists. In fact, most Perugins are not Catholics (and nobody is a monarchist).

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

Details of the autopsy are very different, my friend. The crime does not consist in a stabbing.
There is a lot to talk about.

The decision that "something" has no relevance to the crime and will have to remain "random" (actually: unexplained) it's obviously arbitrary.

I have the autopsy report. It is as I described.

The decision to exclude something as relevant or irrelevant is not arbitrary, but is based on whether it fits into any plausible scenario, which the luminol traces and the lamp do not. They are simply unexplained details, like the bloody tissues with unknown DNA found outside the cottage. Many if not most complex criminal investigations turn up such minor mysteries. If you assert that these particular details are relevant to the crime, it's up to you to explain how and why.

 

[Bill Williams]

The last chapter on Mignini the liar's career will be about the men who finally brought him down,and Spezi will be one of them

Yes. I feel the same way.

Moi aussi.

If Nov 6 goes the way it seems to be going in the Nencini court, there really is not much left of what used to be Mignini's case.

Me, I'm stuck wondering why Satanic Rite theories is a line in the stand? in Oct 2013? I think I may be making too much of it, even with my conspiratorial little mind, to call it Mignini's last stand. "Satanic Rite" theories seems to be a common bridge to Mignini's troubles these days - Spezi and the handling of the Kercher murder trial(s).

The time for some Italian prosecutor to really make a mark on this will be when Mignini is brought in.... like he almost was in the Narducci thing. Imagine that the Kerchers would have long since got the story of this ugly crime years ago, if Mignini had not been around to spin Satanic Rites (which even John Kercher writes about) and other theories by the sack full.....

(Pictured is Mignini in better days.....)

 

[katy_did]

The rock was 8.8lbs according to Dempsey's book. The ISC seems to be confused with different weights listed. That is the weight of a women's shot put. The record for women is over 60 feet from what I remember.

I just remember that the SC never says "rock" without incredulously preceding it with "4 kilo (!!!)". I guess they never watched women's shot put (thanks, btw, now I feel like even more of a wimp).

 

[RoseMontague]

Now, as for Trono e Altare, I don't know it; anyway I have no proof that Mignini had any link to it. There is only Spezi's claim. I'm rather sure Mignini has no contact with them in the present times.

Kaosium gave you a link to where Mignini is mentioned on their website. As far as the other group, I took a peek, they are nuts. Mignini fits right in with that crowd.

 

[Dan O.]

I disagree with you that we can tell with any certainty which spots of blood were diluted and which not, either on the bra or the jeans (blood is something like 80 or 90% water anyway, isn't it?). Logically I think the blood on the jeans and the brown purse probably was diluted, because Rudy would most likely have looked for the keys just before leaving, but it's not certain. A faint trace of 'neat' blood (for want of a better word!) would likely look pretty much the same as a trace of dilute blood.

What we can do with the evidence in this case alone is look at how drops of blood of varying size dry. Small drops of undiluted blood such as the ones under the desk and under the bed dry as a uniform deep red spot. But there is a class of spots which I call diluted blood that form a darker ring at the periphery. This is caused by the blood flowing to the edge where the curvature of the spot gives it a much higher ratio of surface area to volume and therefore a higher evaporation rate. The undiluted blood doesn't flow once the water content drops to where the blood cells are touching and are no longer suspended in solution.

The spot in the middle of the band gives the same result of a dark ring at the periphery of the spot.

Also, bear in mind that just because Rudy's DNA was found in the same place as the trace you mention, doesn't necessarily mean it's associated with it, because the police mainly sampled bloodstains. If they'd taken samples from other, non-bloodstained areas of the bra, they might well have found more traces of Rudy's DNA. I'm sure it was in more places than just that one trace.

Could be. But I believe you will find in this thread that I identified the location where the bra was grasped in order to unravel it the way it did before I knew that there was a DNA profile at that spot. The DNA match is a bonus.

I do still hold the belief that it was the band slipping through Rudy's hand that gave him the cut that didn't bleed as opposed to the knife. I am not however going to try the experiment to find out unless I find a gullible suitable volunteer.

 

[acbytesla]

OK thanks, happy to take your word for it on that one. Rudy was a basketball player too, of course, which might make throwing the rock from below easier.

I think you could have probably done it with a grunt. But if Ron said it came from the car park, I'm inclined to defer to him. The only reason I believe that the rock came from below is the chip on the outside of the inside shutter. It's pretty clear to me that the rock hit that shutter. If the shutter is wide open like it is in the picture than below makes more sense. But there is really no reason to believe that the inside shutter was in that position before the rock was thrown.

Without even a more detailed reconstruction done than the channel 5 documentary, we'll never know for sure.

 

[acbytesla]

I'm so glad that they didn't find Amanda's DNA in Meredith's bedroom. I don't think there would have been anything incriminating if they did, but if there was, the Prosecution would say that this would have been proof that she was involved in the murder.

 

[Matthew Best]

Kaosium gave you a link to where Mignini is mentioned on their website. As far as the other group, I took a peek, they are nuts. Mignini fits right in with that crowd.

Sorry - a link to their own website where they mention Mignini themselves is not going to cut it. We need something much more convincing than that! After all, Spezi probably set up that whole website himself.

 

[katy_did]

I think you could have probably done it with a grunt. But if Ron said it came from the car park, I'm inclined to defer to him. The only reason I believe that the rock came from below is the chip on the outside of the inside shutter. It's pretty clear to me that the rock hit that shutter. If the shutter is wide open like it is in the picture than below makes more sense. But there is really no reason to believe that the inside shutter was in that position before the rock was thrown.

Without even a more detailed reconstruction done than the channel 5 documentary, we'll never know for sure.

Nope, I really couldn't.

Even trying to throw my 4 kilo rock horizontally, I only managed a couple of metres. Not a chance in hell I could've thrown it 6 feet vertically above my head. Oh well, I never wanted to be a shot-putter anyway.

If weight of the rock isn't an issue then I can't see any reason it couldn't have been thrown from below. Either way seems quite possible.

 

[Machiavelli]

Thank you Machiavelli for your thoughtful reply. Assuming that you are right that the source was a police file and that Barcroft claimed an unjustified copyright my guess would be that the leak was from a plaintiff's lawyer or their staff.

Regardless of what the situation was it seems like the prosecution would need to have approved it. I don't think the prosecutors would have stood by without a whimper while crime scene photos were being leaked unless they approved it.

If you think this, it shows you are not used to Italy, and you may have no clue about how things go here.

The leak of this kind of material is simply the rule. Usually there isn't an agency that claims copyright.
But you just have all sorts of material from the investigation: I recall in the Novi Ligure case we had photos of Erika's letters she was writing in prison on magazines every week, even of the notes she threw in the trash bin. We had recordings of Michele Misseri speaking with the prosecutor, accusing himself of raping a dead girl. We have all sorts of leaks whenever the case rises a media interest. This is because the Italian system simply does not protect these investigation document. Dissemination is prevented only for official court transcripts or minutes written by judges or police organs. The rest can be leaked, and the plaintiffs who can access it are so many; so somebody always do that.

We can't know what the true story is, but there are some reasons to doubt your theory. If Barcroft didn't have a legitimate copyright for the photos it seems like media outlets might have figured it out and just ignored the copyright.

frank Sfarzo ignored the copyright. He was the first (maybe only) "Italian" source who ever posted it.
I say "Italian" between inveted commans, because Sfarzo attempted to write in English.
And we can easilly guess that Sfarzo was hired by Marriott to be a "source".

But maybe they did and we don't know about it. It has also been claimed a few times that one can discern in places that some of the photos were different than the official police photographs. Maybe you didn't believe the evidence for those claims?

Well, some people mentioned a difference between the Barcroft photo and the one deposited at the court's clark's office.
But 1) in fact these claims of difference, as you see, are by now not backed; 2) most important, I am talking about police files, where you can have photo sets taken with compact mini-cameras.
And I am saying that the picture is from a set which is owned bt Barcroft. I mean Barcroft owns a whole set, not just that photo. There is no quality difference that I could remember between these photos and the bathroom photo. They are from the same camera. They might well be all from a police file, which was probably a file collected at the Perugia flying squad office (while the Nikon photos of Nov. 2. were collected by the Rome UACV department).

On one thing I suspect you are right. Assuming that the images were in the public domain (as I think they would have been if they had originated by a police crime scene photographer) then nobody would have had standing to challenge Barcroft's copyright although they might just use the images without compensating Barcroft if that was the case.

Exactly. Hardly someone could ask damage reward to Barcroft.

But there is more to this situation than a civil violation. I presume that leaking crime scene photos in Italy is against the law and I presume that if the prosecutor believed that the photos were released in a way counter to his wishes he would institute an investigation to determine who leaked the images. The fact that he didn't do that was a pretty good indication that he didn't object to the release of the photos.

There isn't a law that prevents a "leak" of crime photos, unless the material in the file is classified. Actually, there isn't a concept such as "leak" in the law. The mere possession of material is not punishable, and not illegal. Only the dissemination of material is illegal, but only in those cases when the material is classified, or when it's a privacy violation (but privacy violation through dissemination is not a crime except for some peculiar cases, so only damages can be pursued in a civil litigation).

 

[Machiavelli]

Kaosium gave you a link to where Mignini is mentioned on their website. As far as the other group, I took a peek, they are nuts. Mignini fits right in with that crowd.

Sorry, Mignini is mentioned on their site, only as one of the persons taking part to a conference together with maybe a hundred mentioned on the same site page.

The event was a conference also gathering "traditionalist associations" to listen to a discussion about the old times of Austrian Trieste and its culture; the event was organized by the City of Trieste, by a Spanish University, and the University for Foreigneers of Perugia where it took place. Five university professors were speaking about the history and culture of Trieste when it was part of the Austro-Hungarian Empire.

We are talking about cultural activities organized at the same place where Amanda went to school.

Actually, all this does not mean anything to me, except that Mignini has an interest in local history, cultures and traditions, that he may be a traditionalist, and he may attend academic conferences when they take place at a ten minutes walk from where he lives.