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She has been nothing but kind and informative in this thread, and an excellent example of so much that is right about your church. Surely you would do her the courtesy of a reply?

Cat practices a faith of love and understanding. The religion Jan claims to practice is one of hatred and bigotry. While they both ultimately draw from the same holy texts and, if Jan really IS Mormon, which I doubt, follow the same leaders, their actual religions differ so dramatically that I'm not sure Jan could formulate a response to Cat's questions.

I think asking Jan to give answers to Cat's questions is a bit like asking one of the more brainwashed members of the WBC to discuss tolerance and love with Fred Rogers. Technically a conversation could happen, but the frames of reference and the underlying concept of god differ too much for the bigoted theist to construct real answers to the loving theist's questions.
 
Cat practices a faith of love and understanding. The religion Jan claims to practice is one of hatred and bigotry. While they both ultimately draw from the same holy texts and, if Jan really IS Mormon, which I doubt, follow the same leaders, their actual religions differ so dramatically that I'm not sure Jan could formulate a response to Cat's questions.

I think asking Jan to give answers to Cat's questions is a bit like asking one of the more brainwashed members of the WBC to discuss tolerance and love with Fred Rogers. Technically a conversation could happen, but the frames of reference and the underlying concept of god differ too much for the bigoted theist to construct real answers to the loving theist's questions.

I imagine you're right, and in large part I agree with you.

While I do believe that Jan is a Mormon, most of the LDS I know (including my own family members) are more like Cat than Jan.

But Jan claimed she answered all legitimate questions, which is clearly not true. There are legitimate unanswered questions from a fellow Mormon on the table, and I don't plan to let that slide without saying something about it. Their 13th Article of Faith starts out: "We believe in being honest, true..." Janadele has not been honest and true in this thread, a clear violation of her own church teachings. It may be an exercise in futility to harp on it, harp on it I shall. :D
 
I imagine you're right, and in large part I agree with you.

While I do believe that Jan is a Mormon, most of the LDS I know (including my own family members) are more like Cat than Jan.

But Jan claimed she answered all legitimate questions, which is clearly not true. There are legitimate unanswered questions from a fellow Mormon on the table, and I don't plan to let that slide without saying something about it. Their 13th Article of Faith starts out: "We believe in being honest, true..." Janadele has not been honest and true in this thread, a clear violation of her own church teachings. It may be an exercise in futility to harp on it, harp on it I shall. :D

As far as I am aware I have answered all legitimate questions raised.

He/She keeps using that word. I do not think it means what he/she thinks it means.

Jan's definition of a "legitimate question" appears to be "Questions I feel like answering."
 
We go around and around in circles because, there are NO ANSWERS for our questions, which allows the LDS church to appear legitimate.

None.
 
We go around and around in circles because, there are NO ANSWERS for our questions, which allows the LDS church to appear legitimate.

None.

That is one of the reasons I believe Jan to be a troll. If one is speaking as a character instead of from one's own beliefs, then it's easier to avoid answering a question than to provide an answer you later have to remember. This would also explain the heavy reliance upon copypasta. Deferring not just to the authority of the LDS elders, but to their exact wording, makes it easier to keep trolling without breaking character.
 
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That is one of the reasons I believe Jan to be a troll. If one is speaking as a character instead of from one's own beliefs, then it's easier to avoid answering a question than to provide an answer you later have to remember. This would also explain the heavy reliance upon copypasta.

For Jan's mental state, I do wish she was trolling.

Because, if she's not, then her actions elicit pity.
 
While I do believe that Jan is a Mormon, most of the LDS I know (including my own family members) are more like Cat than Jan.

Even though we may find a metric boat-load of badness in most any religion you care to mention, most adherents of those many religions still tend to be more like Cat than Jan.
 
A new question...

...for me anyway. I had never thought of this one and I don't remember reading about it.

Anyway, it's from an article on Recovering from Mormonism entitled

TO THOSE WHO ARE INVESTIGATING "MORMONISM"

RICHARD PACKHAM said:
The people of the Book of Mormon were supposedly devout Jews observing the Law of Moses, but in the Book of Mormon there is almost no trace of their observance of Mosaic law or even an accurate knowledge of it.
It's not in any way difinitive but I think there is more Christianity (prior to the birth of Christ) than Hebrew rituals and traditions. I was always uncomfortable with the fact that there were Christians prior to Christ being born.

Here is the Mormon apologetics. Not a bad explanation but it does bring into sharp relief the lack of traditional Hebrew ritual while they (people of the BoM) were baptising people in the name of the Mesiah (Jesus in the BoM).
 
...for me anyway. I had never thought of this one and I don't remember reading about it.

Anyway, it's from an article on Recovering from Mormonism entitled

TO THOSE WHO ARE INVESTIGATING "MORMONISM"

It's not in any way difinitive but I think there is more Christianity (prior to the birth of Christ) than Hebrew rituals and traditions. I was always uncomfortable with the fact that there were Christians prior to Christ being born.

Here is the Mormon apologetics. Not a bad explanation but it does bring into sharp relief the lack of traditional Hebrew ritual while they (people of the BoM) were baptising people in the name of the Mesiah (Jesus in the BoM).

It should be remembered that the Book of Mormon is a translation of an ancient Nephite text. The English word "Christian" is not the word that was originally on the Nephite record, but is the English word that Joseph Smith used when translating the original Nephite word.

Joe Smith got it wrong again.
 
...for me anyway. I had never thought of this one and I don't remember reading about it.

Anyway, it's from an article on Recovering from Mormonism entitled

TO THOSE WHO ARE INVESTIGATING "MORMONISM"

It's not in any way difinitive but I think there is more Christianity (prior to the birth of Christ) than Hebrew rituals and traditions. I was always uncomfortable with the fact that there were Christians prior to Christ being born.

Here is the Mormon apologetics. Not a bad explanation but it does bring into sharp relief the lack of traditional Hebrew ritual while they (people of the BoM) were baptising people in the name of the Mesiah (Jesus in the BoM).

Thank you RandFan. That is really dynamite stuff.

I don't see how anyone can read this, and not question the churches teachings, and the church as a whole?

Even the prophet seems to want to keep his blinders, firmly in place.
 
On a related tangent, where did the LDS concept come from in the first place? Yes, obviously it originated with Joe Smith but did it spring whole cloth from his imagination or was there already at the time an urban mythos about "Lost Tribes" and Native Americans? Did he invent something new or simply feed off an already established bit of woo?
 
On a related tangent, where did the LDS concept come from in the first place? Yes, obviously it originated with Joe Smith but did it spring whole cloth from his imagination or was there already at the time an urban mythos about "Lost Tribes" and Native Americans? Did he invent something new or simply feed off an already established bit of woo?

Check out RandFan's link.

There is something about a previous book, which had been printed just a few months earlier, near where Joseph Smith lived.
 
Eternal Law: Polygamy, Second Class Minorities, Coercion of parents to allow child brides for JS, etc...
 
Thank you RandFan. That is really dynamite stuff.

I don't see how anyone can read this, and not question the churches teachings, and the church as a whole?

Even the prophet seems to want to keep his blinders, firmly in place.
I would be curious to get cat's take on "milk before meat".

While I was still a believer two of my chief complaints were suppression of dissent (freedom of conscience means little if you cannot voice your opinion) and lack of informed consent. The policy of "milk before meat" is, IMO, a violation of trust. Forgive me cat for the comparison but that is what con men do. It's also what Scientology and cults do. A lack of transparency is usually a bad sign.

It's also in contradiction to the concept in Judeo-Christian theology of "winnowing" or "sifting the wheat to separate the chaff". If a person's faith is strong enough to be baptized why is it not strong enough to reveal all?

Many religious sects allow freedom of conscience (open and public criticism) and informed consent. I think that is a good thing. Obviously not everything the prophet says is correct (see Brigham Young). In his book, The Case for Democracy, the former Soviet dissident Natan Sharansky makes the case that freedom of conscience is absolutely crucial to avoid oppression and subjugation. I would argue that Sharansky was right on the mark when it came to racism and segregation in the Mormon Church.

Elder MARK E. PETERSON said:
I think I have read enough to give you an idea of what the Negro is after. He is not just seeking the opportunity of sitting down in a cafe where white people eat. He isn't just trying to ride on the same streetcar or the same Pullman car with white people. It isn't that he just desires to go to the same theater as the white people. From this, and other interviews I have read, it appears that the Negro seeks absorption with the white race. He will not be satisfied until he achieves it by intermarriage. That is his objective and we must face it. We must not allow our feelings to carry us away, nor must we feel so sorry for Negroes that we will open our arms and embrace them with everything we have. Remember the little statement that we used to say about sin, "First we pity, then endure, then embrace"....

Now let's talk about segregation again for a few moments. Was segregation a wrong principle? When the Lord chose the nations to which the spirits were to come, determining that some would be Japanese and some would be Chinese and some Negroes and some Americans, He engaged in an act of segregation....

Now we are generous with the Negro. We are willing that the Negro have the highest education. I would be willing to let every Negro drive a Cadillac if they could afford it.
Was he not merciful preaching from his ivory tower? (that was 1954 BTW)

When I was a believer I often heard such sentiments and I founnd them as odious, presumptuous and condescending to say the least, as I do now. I don't think Peterson meant to be vulgar or obscene but IT IS vulgar and obscene. Certainly far worse than shouting the "F" word in a Mormon temple.

There were many Mormons like me who were against this kind of racism, Mitt Romney's dad for one. But most of us had to be careful not to directly criticize leaders. You could humbly and respectfully disagree but to come out publicly and denounce such words as racist and evil could get you excommunicated.

That bothered me. A lot. If I could overcome every other objection I had against the Church, and that would be a considerable undertaking, I could not affirm my faith in it for those two reasons.

I believe that freedom of conscience is a fundamental human right and that freedom of conscience means little to nothing without freedom of expression. I could understand excommunication for libel or slander but proscriptions for speaking out against hateful and harmful rhetoric I find untenable.
 
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View of the Hebrews, by Ethan Smith
There you go!
Many of the basic historical notions found in the Book of Mormon had appeared in print already in 1825, just two years before Smith began producing the Book of Mormon, in a book called View of the Hebrews, by Ethan Smith (no relation) and published just a few miles from where Joseph Smith lived. A careful study of this obscure book led one LDS church official (the historian B. H. Roberts, 1857-1933) to confess that the evidence tended to show that the Book of Mormon was not an ancient record, but concocted by Joseph Smith himself, based on ideas he had read in the earlier book.
I'd always wondered why the BoM sounded like an uneducated person's fantasy version of Biblical stories than anything. Sort of similar to the claims to Egyptian linage by modern Masons or that of modern Druids, etc....
 
There you go!

I'd always wondered why the BoM sounded like an uneducated person's fantasy version of Biblical stories than anything. Sort of similar to the claims to Egyptian linage by modern Masons or that of modern Druids, etc....
That and the *Spalding Manuscript. Though I must say that from what I have read the View of the Hebrews had more influence and some word for word plagiarism, IIRC.

Here is a great comparison by Mormon B.H. Roberts between the View of the Hebrews and the BOM.


*See Spalding–Rigdon theory of Book of Mormon authorship
 
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Janadele -

If the Lord and God of the universe be with you, what harm is there in looking over the site RandFan has posted.

http://www.exmormon.org/tract2.htm

There are many, very interesting items concerning the Book of Mormon. Surely, if you have truth and God on your side, you will be able to give an account of why these items are wrong or false.

It is becoming more and more obvious what a scam the LDS church is.

Why will you not see for yourself? Can you look the site over and give your reasoning as to why it is false in it's claims?
 
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As I have previously mentioned many times. This thread is LDS. Anti Mormon propaganda is not the subject of this thread, and has nothing whatsoever to do with The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. It has no relation to the topic of this thread, and if the Anti Mormons had any scruples or honesty at all they would start their own thread... a good title would be "The Cult of Anti-Mormonism."
 
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