Miracle of the Shroud II: The Second Coming

[John Jones]

I have been posting on JREF for 6 years as of this month. I have tried to think of another member who came here as a believer in some woo subject, who so abruptly made a 180 degree change as a result of logical arguments by other members. I think one astrology lady claimed to no longer believe, but not convincing, however I can think of half a dozen who left damaged or were banned, still believing but surely doubting their woo.

One gentleman, a reincarnation/past life/ouija board enthusiast, managed to alienate both JREF and his reincarnation forum.

Not only logical arguments, but especially an examination of the evidence.

 

[pakeha]

I have been posting on JREF for 6 years as of this month. I have tried to think of another member who came here as a believer in some woo subject, who so abruptly made a 180 degree change as a result of logical arguments by other members. I think one astrology lady claimed to no longer believe, but not convincing, however I can think of half a dozen who left damaged or were banned, still believing but surely doubting their woo.

One gentleman, a reincarnation/past life/ouija board enthusiast, managed to alienate both JREF and his reincarnation forum.

I assure you, Olowkow, there are many of us ex-woosters here.
You never really know which post, which link, which argument, which exchange can help a wooster understand that the beliefs and certainties that have formed their North were smoke, shadows and mirrors.

 

[Jabba]

Carbon Dating/Reweave?/Radiographs

- I'm still here.

- I'm trying to contact the Whangers and see what radiographs they base the following upon...
“Our observations of the radiographs indicate that possible repairs or reweaving (other than the stitches and patches around the scorched and burned areas) were essentially limited to these two corner areas next to the sites of the MCs.” (Excerpt from �Radiological Aspects of the Shroud of Turin�, P3 -- If that doesn't work as a link, go to http://shroud.com/library.htm#papers)

 

[Akhenaten]

Same old same old

- I'm still here.

- I'm trying to contact the Whangers and see what radiographs they base the following upon...

Well let's see if we can figure it out for ourselves . . .


The very document you've tried (and failed) to link to has this to say:

There are two aspects of radiological concern in studying the Shroud of Turin that we are considering in this paper. The first aspect results from a study of the radiographs (x-ray pictures) that were made of the Shroud during the major research investigations in Turin in 1978, and the foci of our examinations have to do with the side strip and the area from which the specimen was taken for the C14 radiocarbon dating in 1988.

It then goes on to describe how each of those radiographs, which appear as Figures 2-13 and 17-20 in that same document, were analysed.

Do you expect them to say something different when you finally manage to contact them?

“Our observations of the radiographs indicate that possible repairs or reweaving (other than the stitches and patches around the scorched and burned areas) were essentially limited to these two corner areas next to the sites of the MCs.”

How could you not know which radiographs they were talking about when the above text is taken from the description which actually refers to one of them (Figure 13, in fact)?

Added to which, we've already covered this at least once before.

(Excerpt from �Radiological Aspects of the Shroud of Turin�, P3 -- If that doesn't work as a link, go to http://shroud.com/library.htm#papers)

That first mess isn't even a link and your alternative is a link to an index of all the papers referred to on the shroud.com site.


This is the correct URL for the paper you're actually referring to/quoting from:

http://www.shroud.com/pdfs/whanger.pdf​

Pathetic.

 

[Olowkow]

Would you buy a used car from Dr. Whanger? I don't understand why anyone would believe what this fellow would have to say. If he is not conning the viewer with this sciency nonsense, he is giving an excellent imitation of doing so.

 

[Akhenaten]

I've seen that technology before!

 

[tsig]

I've seen that technology before!

[qimg]http://www.yvonneclaireadams.com/HostedStuff/XraySpecs.jpg[/qimg]​

So you bit on that add too, did you?

 

[Akhenaten]

Believe it or not, the Shroud of Turin wasn't the first thing I tried to look at with them.

 

[HighRiser]

- I'm still here.

- I'm trying to contact the Whangers and see what radiographs they base the following upon...
“Our observations of the radiographs indicate that possible repairs or reweaving (other than the stitches and patches around the scorched and burned areas) were essentially limited to these two corner areas next to the sites of the MCs.” (Excerpt from �Radiological Aspects of the Shroud of Turin�, P3 -- If that doesn't work as a link, go to http://shroud.com/library.htm#papers)

Jabba, the Whanger's conclusions are based on wishful thinking. No textile repair is truly invisible. How could it not be so?

 

[Slowvehicle]

Believe it or not, the Shroud of Turin wasn't the first thing I tried to look at with them.

Mighty One (may you post forever!)...How could it have been? It wasn't forged until the mid-13th century...

 

[Akhenaten]

Mighty One (may you post forever!)...How could it have been? It wasn't forged until the mid-13th century...

Yes, Nephertiti pointed that out as well. I really should have come up with a better story when she found them in the pocket of my shendyt.

 

[pakeha]

Jabba, the Whanger's conclusions are based on wishful thinking. No textile repair is truly invisible. How could it not be so?

This is the bit that puzzles me.
How could adults with any claim to rationality imagine such a thing to be possible?

 

[Jabba]

Carbon Dating/Reweave?/Radiographs/Whangers

- Yesterday, I did receive the Whanger book of 1998, The Shroud of Turin, An Adventure of Discovery. They present all sorts of radiographs of the shroud -- but so far, I haven't found any graphic evidence that “Our observations of the radiographs indicate that possible repairs or reweaving (other than the stitches and patches around the scorched and burned areas) were essentially limited to these two corner areas next to the sites of the MCs.”
- I sent an email to Alan Whanger asking for the graphic evidence -- but so far,
he hasn't answered. Next, I'll either call him, or ask Barrie Schwortz for a better email address.

 

[pakeha]

Shroud of Turin, dated to the 14th century

That's a great initiative, Jabba, and I'm interested in seeing what responses you end up getting.

 

[Akhenaten]

Now with 25% more whanger!

- Yesterday, I did receive the Whanger book of 1998, The Shroud of Turin, An Adventure of Discovery. They present all sorts of radiographs of the shroud -- but so far, I haven't found any graphic evidence that “Our observations of the radiographs indicate that possible repairs or reweaving (other than the stitches and patches around the scorched and burned areas) were essentially limited to these two corner areas next to the sites of the MCs.”

That's because there is no such evidence.

As has been demonstrated to you over and over.

Why are you so determined to persist with this embarrassing display of dead horse flogging?

- I sent an email to Alan Whanger asking for the graphic evidence -- but so far,
he hasn't answered.

Go figure.

Next, I'll either call him, or ask Barrie Schwortz for a better email address.

And so it goes.

The blind following the unseeing in faint hope that the only thing separating them from the Ultimate Truth of the Turin Tablecloth™ is a badly transcribed email address.

 

[Filippo Lippi]

- Yesterday, I did receive the Whanger book of 1998

For once this thread has brought tears of joy to my eyes rather than ones of frustration.

 

[Jabba]

Carbon Dating/Reweave?/Radiographs/Whangers

Originally Posted by HighRiser
Jabba, the Whanger's conclusions are based on wishful thinking. No textile repair is truly invisible. How could it not be so?

This is the bit that puzzles me.
How could adults with any claim to rationality imagine such a thing to be possible?

Pakeha,
- Neither I nor the Whangers is/are claiming that the repair is truly invisible. I am, and the Whangers are, suggesting that repair might be hidden enough so that the tests actually made on the sample area were not sufficient to clearly reveal it -- though Riggi, Hall and Peter South all reported irregularities. And apart from the Whangers and those (above) participating in the dating, Raes, Rogers, Brown and Villarreal claim to have found significant irregularities in the area as well.

 

[Akhenaten]

Blind Dating/Rewaver?/Radiograms/Wankers

Pakeha,
- Neither I nor the Whangers is/are claiming that the repair is truly invisible. I am, and the Whangers are, suggesting that repair might be hidden enough so that the tests actually made on the sample area were not sufficient to clearly reveal it -- though Riggi, Hall and Peter South all reported irregularities. And apart from the Whangers and those (above) participating in the dating, Raes, Rogers, Brown and Villarreal claim to have found significant irregularities in the area as well.

And yet despite yourself and all these other people claiming to be able to see all of this evidence you are still unable to show us a single thread of it.

BTW, why are you underlining your own weasel words? I thought it was up to us to bring attention to them.

 

[Slowvehicle]

Originally Posted by HighRiser
Jabba, the Whanger's conclusions are based on wishful thinking. No textile repair is truly invisible. How could it not be so?


Pakeha,
- Neither I nor the Whangers is/are claiming that the repair is truly invisible. I am, and the Whangers are, suggesting that repair might be hidden enough so that the tests actually made on the sample area were not sufficient to clearly reveal it -- though Riggi, Hall and Peter South all reported irregularities. And apart from the Whangers and those (above) participating in the dating, Raes, Rogers, Brown and Villarreal claim to have found significant irregularities in the area as well.

...not that I expect you to respond to this...

Are you actually claiming that the "some patching" upon which you have pinned your hope of glory is "not completely invisible", just "invisible enough" to have escaped detection by every researcher who has evr actually handled the medieval linen artifact; to say nothing of appearing on not one of the myriad photographs, in various illuminations, that have been taken?

And none of that gets you any closer to explaining:

-who could have wrought such a marvelous repair;

-when it could have been wrought;

-with what substance it could have been wrought that woould alter the apparent date just so;

-for what purpose it was wrought only in the "small, oft-handled" corner, when so many other places on the linen so patently in need of repair;

...among other equally unconsidered questions.

Are you, this late in the game, suggesting that the Holy Order of the Knights Tatting ( a looming subset of the Knights Templar) snuck in one night and invisibly mended the corner with linen from the future, to conceal the true nature of the Holy Hanky^TM?

Are you hoping for a lunch date with Dan Brown?

 

[Jabba]

Carbon Dating/Reweave?/Irregularities

...not that I expect you to respond to this...

Are you actually claiming that the "some patching" upon which you have pinned your hope of glory is "not completely invisible", just "invisible enough" to have escaped detection by every researcher who has evr actually handled the medieval linen artifact; to say nothing of appearing on not one of the myriad photographs, in various illuminations, that have been taken?...

Slowvehicle,
- I'm pretty sure that Riggi, Hall, Peter South, Rogers and Raes all "handled" the artifact, and claim to have discovered irregularities.
- So far, I haven't heard from Alan Whanger (for getting photos of the radiographs that he claims show the irregularities)... I'll give him a phone call on Monday. If I can't reach him, I'll go to Barrie Schwortz for help in reaching him.