Ed Madeleine McCann Mystery

[gtm]

Just seen this going around:

[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/thum_4659525e69b842e44.jpg[/qimg]

All well and good save the fact Gerry McCann was busy looking for his daughter at the holiday complex at the time this individual was spotted.

He couldn't have been in 2 places at the same time could he?

 

[Information Analyst]

They would have us believe that Gerry & Kate McCann killed & disposed of their daughter in an extremely limited timescale. This is despite the the fact they were in an unfamiliar country & the portugese police launched a massive search that would have easily found a shallow grave in the vicinity of Praia Da Luz.

IIRC, there was a C4 documentary a few years back which took a number of British ex-coppers to the area, and one of them pointed out that you didn't have to go very far in the surrounding countryside to find all manner of places where a body could be hidden (by anybody), and wouldn't be found without the sort of extremely intensive search that was not actually carried out.

 

[gtm]

IIRC, there was a C4 documentary a few years back which took a number of British ex-coppers to the area, and one of them pointed out that you didn't have to go very far in the surrounding countryside to find all manner of places where a body could be hidden (by anybody), and wouldn't be found without the sort of extremely intensive search that was not actually carried out.

At night? On arid, hard ground? they'd have needed time & equipment (ie a pick or spade) to pull a stunt like that off.

It's simply not credible.

 

[gumboot]

It's also germane to consider the Azaria Chamberlain case, where the mother, Lindy, was wrongly considered guilty by so many because she didn't react "correctly".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Azaria_Chamberlain

An interesting comparison, because she would have been a similar distance away, and the baby left in an open tent. Not a foreign country, admittedly.

 

[Information Analyst]

4 is an unsupported and in my opinion illogical speculation. Abduction by a UFO is possible.

Well that and the fact that it is idle and unsupported speculation.......

My previously-recounted evidence is obviously annecdotal (you know - the bit you conveniently neglected to quote), but it seems that there is less incredulity to the idea within the actual medical profession than you think, and certainly less than reductio ad fugiens objectiva ignotum merits. When a senior nurse tells me something is not uncommon amongst other medical professiona, I'm inclined not to dismiss it as readily as you.

 

[Information Analyst]

At night? On arid, hard ground? they'd have needed time & equipment (ie a pick or spade) to pull a stunt like that off.

It's simply not credible.

Arid, rocky, hilly bits, ravines, quite a few abandoned isolated properties with disused wells....

"...not credible...."? If you say so.

The point is that nobody actually looked.

 

[IamFreeCanIGo]

That could be argued. Certainly the actions of the parents before the disappearing aren't that unusual (wintness that more people did that, that evening).

I would think so. A child has disappeared!

If the police didn't think that at one point they would not do their job properly.
evidence?


I see, by the way, that you dismiss the new timeline the police now has?

I didn't dismiss anything, im talking about evidence gathered at the time, and recordings from interviews with the mccanns and others. If there stories has changed and the timeline has changed that does not dispute from the fact that the origial statements confirm what i said.

 

[IamFreeCanIGo]

In the UK there are different forms of interview and people will be re interviewed as enquiries progress. The first interviews will be to gather information to assist with the search. As time progresses and there is no trace of Madeleine, since she is high risk due to her age foul play is suspected. Then interviews will become more formal as the police start to eliminate any potential suspect. Family members are commonly interviewed in such a way because statistically they are found to be involved in more cases than random would suggest.

Thats the uk, this all took place in portual, so your point is useless and even if you think the police chief was a money grabber, he clearly thought they were responsible hence his book. That proves that they were made arguidos because they were suspected guilty, not because its a normal thing to do. Stop clutching at straws.

 

[jargon buster]

And you'd be wrong.

Easy isn't it?

Despite some contentions in this thread, I'm convinced that most parents have left young children asleep while they have momentarily left their house. It's possible something bad could have happened, but extremely unlikely. Yes, parents would have been distraught and guilt ridden beyond belief if the child was hurt as a result, and (in hindsight) negligent. But irresponsible? Not in my opinion.

As to your second question, do parents eat in the same room their child sleeps in? Not usually.

But not in a motel alone and sat eating a meal when they could easily have eaten in their room, there was no justification for leaving your child.
As for your question about eating in the same room, no probably not, but most eat in the same building.
Im not going to continue this any further but would just add , most bad parents don't think they are bad parents.

 

[erwinl]

I didn't dismiss anything, im talking about evidence gathered at the time, and recordings from interviews with the mccanns and others. If there stories has changed and the timeline has changed that does not dispute from the fact that the origial statements confirm what i said.

That's strange. Why not change the hypothesis of what could have happened when new information comes out?
I can understand a different hypothesis, based on the original statements, but now?

Note that at the time there already was a lot of criticism concerning the work of the Portugese police

 

[lionking]

But not in a motel alone and sat eating a meal when they could easily have eaten in their room, there was no justification for leaving your child.
As for your question about eating in the same room, no probably not, but most eat in the same building.
Im not going to continue this any further but would just add , most bad parents don't think they are bad parents.

Neat. A post accusing me of being a bad parent with a smilie.

Do you have children? I'd like to hear whether you have never, ever left young children alone. See, I have seven children, my wife is a qualified child carer and I have studied psychology (and other disciplines) at tertiary level. All have reached adulthood in very good shape indeed, as judged by others as well as us.

Some people may be in a position to pass judgement on me. But not you.

 

[IamFreeCanIGo]

That's strange. Why not change the hypothesis of what could have happened when new information comes out?
I can understand a different hypothesis, based on the original statements, but now?

Note that at the time there already was a lot of criticism concerning the work of the Portugese police

The portugese police only were critized when they mccanns were made arguidos. Either way im basing my info off the transcrips of the interviews given by the mccanns and others in the holiday group, Not anything the PJ had discovered. All are freely available to read. The new information that has come out, which part of my statements does it contradict exactly?

The fact that the woman in the flat above heard maddy crying for an hour on may 1st before anyone coming home.

The timeline of the checks on the child, because i can show you a pic of the handwritten timeline given by the mccanns to the PJ and can show you where they confirmed the timeline each in two further interviews. If they have changed their statements after all these years that would be a bit weird imo.

Point out which of my statments i should change, because im not sure what you are getting at.

 

[IamFreeCanIGo]

Neat. A post accusing me of being a bad parent with a smilie.

Do you have children? I'd like to hear whether you have never, ever left young children alone. See, I have seven children, my wife is a qualified child carer and I have studied psychology (and other disciplines) at tertiary level. All have reached adulthood in very good shape indeed, as judged by others as well as us.

Some people may be in a position to pass judgement on me. But not you.

Do you think its good parenting, to go out drinking leaving your kids sleeping alone in an apartment without checking on them for over an hour, with an unlocked door, out of ear shot of them crying like they did on may 1st?

 

[erwinl]

The portugese police only were critized when they mccanns were made arguidos. Either way im basing my info off the transcrips of the interviews given by the mccanns and others in the holiday group, Not anything the PJ had discovered. All are freely available to read. The new information that has come out, which part of my statements does it contradict exactly?

The fact that the woman in the flat above heard maddy crying for an hour on may 1st before anyone coming home.

The timeline of the checks on the child, because i can show you a pic of the handwritten timeline given by the mccanns to the PJ and can show you where they confirmed the timeline each in two further interviews. If they have changed their statements after all these years that would be a bit weird imo.

Point out which of my statments i should change, because im not sure what you are getting at.

I'm referring to the timeline which the police now has, where they think Madeleine was taken later than originally thought. (closer to ten o'clock)

 

[lionking]

Do you think its good parenting, to go out drinking leaving your kids sleeping alone in an apartment without checking on them for over an hour, with an unlocked door, out of ear shot of them crying like they did on may 1st?

It was, in my opinion, within the boundaries of acceptable parental behaviour, as is leaving a sleeping child for 10 minutes while you go to a shop. It had a tragic outcome.

But even if it fails to meet your "good parenting" standard, so what? They are not responsible for what happened.

 

[IamFreeCanIGo]

I'm referring to the timeline which the police now has, where they think Madeleine was taken later than originally thought. (closer to ten o'clock)

I see what you mean, i don't pretend to know when she was taken really. Jane tanners witness statment is useless and we can only say she was taken between the time she was seen last and discovered which hasnt changed, she could have been taken around that time, you are right.

 

[IamFreeCanIGo]

It was, in my opinion, within the boundaries of acceptable parental behaviour, as is leaving a sleeping child for 10 minutes while you go to a shop. It had a tragic outcome.

But even if it fails to meet your "good parenting" standard, so what? They are not responsible for what happened.

We are not talking about going to the shop for 10 minutes. We are talking about leaving a 3year old and 2 babies in an unlocked foreign apartment without checking on them for over an hour every night so they could go and have a drink.

Its not close to acceptable and a child is dead because of it.

 

[gtm]

We are not talking about going to the shop for 10 minutes. We are talking about leaving a 3year old and 2 babies in an unlocked foreign apartment without checking on them for over an hour every night so they could go and have a drink.

Its not close to acceptable and a child is dead because of it.

This is not accurate. They were checked at least every half hour & other members of the Tapas 7 looked in as well. The Mccanns system was more frequent that the paid for baby monitoring service provided by the resort.

Furthermore, they weren't prosecuted for child neglect in Portugal or the UK. Finally, you don't know that she's dead.

 

[pakeha]

Leaving them alone for an hour without checking is unnacceptable, I still don't think that it's neglect, but it is poor parenting, and I think from what I heard last night that Kate McCann is tortured by the decision constantly. I can only think that they felt safe in the complex, perhaps as you would if you were outside having a barbeque on your own property. As I say the decision to leave the children is questionable but in every other respect they just don't strike me as neglectful parents.

Yes, indeed. A barbie on your own property.
I felt that way til I learned the holiday flat was a ground floor flat, semi-detached, on a corner and bordered on the two sides by public thoroughways.
The crowning touch is that there's a a car park directly below the window of the children's bedroom.

The Tapas bar is so situated that there's a swimming pool between it and the holiday flat.
A very strange and confusing crime, indeed.
And now, knowing the police place credence on the idea the child went missing about the time mrs Mccann raised the alarm, more confusing yet.

All well and good save the fact Gerry McCann was busy looking for his daughter at the holiday complex at the time this individual was spotted.

He couldn't have been in 2 places at the same time could he?

I would imagine there was a great deal of confusion during that first horrified and panicky search.

 

[truethat]

With the wisdom of hindsight, yes. I'm sure many, if not most, parents have left their children for 10 minutes while they went to a corner shop, and the consequences could have been grave, but condemning them across the board is pointless in my opinion. I remember leaving our first born asleep in a motel room while we had dinner about 20 meters away, while we took turns checking on him. Some might consider us irresponsible parents. They'd be wrong.

This is really the problem in a nutshell. I've noticed this in other threads as well. It's called BIAS.

Because you feel sympathetic to them you want to let them off the hook as totally innocent.

Most parents have not left a three year old and a set of twins home alone for ten minutes while they went to the corner shop.

I have. I have left my two little ones, ages 2 and 3 home watching television in the living room while I ran down to the corner store in the middle of a freezing winter day, to pick up a few groceries. I took the risk and it's an incredibly dangerous thing to have done. I got lucky. They didn't.

But if I hadn't gotten lucky and something dangerous had happened I would have been grossly negligent.

So are the McCaans.