Continuation Part Six: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

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Machiavelli;9558252[HILITE said:
]'My persistence' will be just the persistence of the Florence court.
As it was in the ruling of the Supreme Court (as I did anticipate).[/HILITE]Your 'argument' is actually the showing of your lack of arguments.

You can entertain and laugh as long as you like, but you don't have any plausible contamination scenario.

You don't have it. This is all.
The two 'experts' (C&V) only showed their corruption or dishonesty, but above all the lack of any possible argument. This was also absolutely clear to everybody.

The prosecution are going nowhere with this appeal Machiavelli,the last desperate attempt to find something on the knife has backfired,Piggy has being promoted to where he cannot start anymore investigations,and seemingly nobody was willing to start an investigation on Mario Spezi on his behalf,so he is now reduced to lying in letters to newspapers about never have used a satanic rite as a motive for murder.
 
Six of one...

...It would have been better not using a climbing enthusiast...

Why? Would you have any objections if they'd used someone with experience as a cat burglar or second-story man?
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Well, there's "solved" and there's "solved." A lot of people who were wrongly convicted in "solved" cases were later freed by new DNA technology.



With the exception of the forensic evidence of Rudy, I agree. Without DNA, we have no knife and no bra clasp. The truth of the case is much more obvious without the contrived introduction of these two manufactured items.

P.S. Would you like to reply to this post of mine from yesterday?

We also don't have mixed blood and DNA or DNA in footprints that tested negative for blood, so DNA is at the heart of the case.
 
You have addressed this issue before:

Has it occurred to you to wonder why so many people could have done this without violating any law? That is, why "the system is not protected?" Particularly considering what you claim about the mafia using the media in this way?

This tradition of leaking -- to use your word, "always" -- benefits those who make the laws. Otherwise, there would be laws against it.

And I will make the point I made before: You can't argue that the prosecution is not motivated by the power and influence of the press when you have a prosecutor suing everybody for allegedly slandering him in the press.

I'm not following you here; afraid I don't fully understand what you mean.

It simply makes no sense to assume the prosecution had an agenda to publish bloody bathroom pictures on the Daily Mirror in order to influence the public opinion. This is a point which is just obvious to any Italian. You may either see that, or not see that.

In Italy, any person who is a target of false claims would sue everybody if he can. This is actually no peculiarity of Mignini. He was very restrained in his reaction, I must say. If it was me, I would have filed much more lawsuits. Giuttari for example has submitted multiple lawsuits against Spezi for much lesser offences.

This has nothing to do with the fact that one works as a prosecutior. It has to do with the fact that in Italy it is a crime to make false allegations to attack people. A crime is a crime. I can punch someone and he may not file any formal complain for that, but that doesn't change the unlawfulness and the morally unacceptable nature of my action. The same goes for a dirty propaganda campaign. Whether one sues or not, defamation is still a crime. It is still an evil and despisable action, and I feel pleased is seeing that punished by criminal law instead than just countered through publicity means. I'm glad that Mignini filed some criminal lawsuits. But I would have prefered to see more legal actions. This doesn't have anything to do with the fact that Mignini is a prosecutor: it is because of the vicious nature of the defamation campaign. This viciousness is what would motivate me towards taking legal action. I think this consideration is basically what motivated him in his few actions, too.
Basically, as far as I know he only sued Sfarzo. And I think he did so not because he needed to influence a public opinion, but because Sfarzo is a thug who put up a campaign to slander him in a public arena (Sfarzo waged a war in public opinon, Mignini only worked in court), and he just deserves it.
 
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The prosecution are going nowhere with this appeal Machiavelli,the last desperate attempt to find something on the knife has backfired,Piggy has being promoted to where he cannot start anymore investigations,and seemingly nobody was willing to start an investigation on Mario Spezi on his behalf,so he is now reduced to lying in letters to newspapers about never have used a satanic rite as a motive for murder.

Spezi stands now indicted on multiple charges.
The Supreme Court has sent him to trial.
 
I'm not following you here; afraid I don't fully understand what you mean.

It simply makes no sense to assume the prosecution had an agenda to publish bloody bathroom pictures on the Daily Mirror in order to influence the public opinion. This is a point which is just obvious to any Italian. You may either see that, or not see that.

In Italy, any person who is a target of false claims would sue everybody if he can. This is actually no peculiarity of Mignini. He was very restrained in his reaction, I must say. If it was me, I would have filed much more lawsuits. Giuttari for example has submitted multiple lawsuits against Spezi for much lesser offences.

This has nothing to do with the fact that one works as a prosecutior. It has to do with the fact that in Italy it is a crime to make false allegations to attack people. A crime is a crime. I can punch someone and he may not file any formal complain for that, but that doesn't change the unlawfulness and the morally unacceptable nature of my action. The same goes for a dirty propaganda campaign. Whether one sues or not, defamation is still a crime. It is still an evil and despisable action, and I feel pleased is seeing that punished by criminal law instead than just countered through publicity means. I'm glad that Mignini filed some criminal lawsuits. But I would have prefered to see more legal actions. This doesn't have anything to do with the fact that Mignini is a prosecutor: it is because of the vicious nature of the defamation campaign. This viciousness is what would motivate me towards taking legal action. I think this consideration is basically what motivated him in his few actions, too.
Basically, as far as I know he only sued Sfarzo. And I think he did so not because he needed to influence a public opinion, but because Sfarzo is a thug who put up a campaign to slander him in a public arena (Sfarzo waged a war in public opinon, Mignini only worked in court), and he just deserves it.

*Sigh*.

Re. my [ETA >> second-to] last post; Q.E.D.
 
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It simply makes no sense to assume the prosecution had an agenda to publish bloody bathroom pictures on the Daily Mirror in order to influence the public opinion.
So you're saying that Mignini just did this for the money? If you're right about that, and I hope you aren't, then he truly is a detestable scumbag criminal.
 
I'm not following you here; afraid I don't fully understand what you mean.

It simply makes no sense to assume the prosecution had an agenda to publish bloody bathroom pictures on the Daily Mirror in order to influence the public opinion. This is a point which is just obvious to any Italian. You may either see that, or not see that.

In Italy, any person who is a target of false claims would sue everybody if he can. This is actually no peculiarity of Mignini. He was very restrained in his reaction, I must say. If it was me, I would have filed much more lawsuits. Giuttari for example has submitted multiple lawsuits against Spezi for much lesser offences.

This has nothing to do with the fact that one works as a prosecutior. It has to do with the fact that in Italy it is a crime to make false allegations to attack people. A crime is a crime. I can punch someone and he may not file any formal complain for that, but that doesn't change the unlawfulness and the morally unacceptable nature of my action. The same goes for a dirty propaganda campaign. Whether one sues or not, defamation is still a crime. It is still an evil and despisable action, and I feel pleased is seeing that punished by criminal law instead than just countered through publicity means. I'm glad that Mignini filed some criminal lawsuits. But I would have prefered to see more legal actions. This doesn't have anything to do with the fact that Mignini is a prosecutor: it is because of the vicious nature of the defamation campaign. This viciousness is what would motivate me towards taking legal action. I think this consideration is basically what motivated him in his few actions, too.
Basically, as far as I know he only sued Sfarzo. And I think he did so not because he needed to influence a public opinion, but because Sfarzo is a thug who put up a campaign to slander him in a public arena (Sfarzo waged a war in public opinon, Mignini only worked in court), and he just deserves it.

Amanda and Raffaele were the ones who were defamed; they are the ones who should be suing against the crimes of false allegations, and hopefully they will. Everything -- absolutely everything -- that has been said about Mignini has been in reaction to the crimes he committed in his defamation campaign against two innocent defendants. If he didn't want people to find fault with him, he shouldn't have been so flagrant.

You've completely sidestepped my point about how using the media would be against the law if it were not something the legal community relied on and enabled.

I have no opinion about the bloody bathroom photos, but the fact is, the media that engineered a campaign against Raffaele and Amanda got most of their information from Perugia.

Ironically, here is what Mignini said at the appeal trail:

"The trial must be held here, in this courtroom. This lobbying, this media and political circus, this heavy interference, forget all of it," he said.

Giancarlo Costagliola, another prosecutor, said an "obsessive media campaign" had unfairly tilted the case towards Knox.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...da-Knox-compared-to-Nazi-Joseph-Goebbels.html

Now, why didn't they say that at the trial of first instance?
 
Your spin of lies is unfolding Machiavelli. The bloody bathroom photo that the press got was not the one from the case file. A side by side comparison of the two shows this. All of the case file photos come from the Nikon cameras and have distinctive characteristics that set them apart from the photos taken by the pocket camera.

The other part of my post that you are pretending doesn't exist is that the videographer just happened to turn towards the door from Kerchers room and caught the perp with the pocket camera taking the famous photo of the pink bathroom.

(...)

It's you who actually pretend my post doesn't exist.
I am obviously not considering any argument which does not stem from the facts and from the most obvious common-sense inference; and one fact is that it was picture that a Britis newspaper picked from a photo agency, and belonged to a set of photos.
There was a big set of photos in the case file, not just one.
If you assert one particular picture was not one from that set of photos and was from some peculiar camera, then you should prove it first place. I don't know the camera used for that photo specifically, but I assert instead that it was specifically a picture taken from one set of pictures which was owned by a British photo agency. And (the original, in that set) has same features of the others from the same set.

The rest, as I said, is pure nonsense. Whoever took that specific picture (and you have no proof anyway to say who did it) makes no difference. It doesn't change the fact that the theory itself is nonsense. And i point out again, anyway: you have not even a proof Mignini was the person who took the photo! Your photo is not "evidence" of something. (btw, Mignini visited the scene on Nov. 2., but - if I recall correctly - phenophtaleine was used in the small bathroom on Dec. 18.)

And all this: anyway, it doesn't change the fact that the picture was never published in Italy (I think the first to publish it was Frank Sfarzo). Doesn't change the fact that Perugians anyway don't read the Daily Mirror (neither they know that the Daily Mirror exists). It doesn't change the fact that preliminary judges couldn't care less about what is published anyway, since judges and courts have the investigation files. Doesn't change the fact that the Daily Mirror chose their picture picking it from a set at a photo agency. It doesn't change the fact that what goes on a tabloid dosen't bring any kind of advantage to the prosecution. And it doesn't change the fact that the picture was leaked in the UK while Mignini lives in Perugia and doesn't even speak English.

Nothing changes these facts. Even, whoever took the picture, whoever gave it more or less confidentially, more or less officially to parties, to the Kerchers, to lawyers or others, or whoever then leaked it in the UK press market: nonthing of this changes nothing about the basic facts. The facts do not allow your theory of media manipulation to stand.
 
Why? Would you have any objections if they'd used someone with experience as a cat burglar or second-story man?
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No. That would have been sensational :p.

Look at it from the other side. Let's say the prosecution said Meredith was killed by someone outside the room by throwing a knife into her throat and they used a circus knife thrower to prove how easy it would be. No one here or anywhere should accept that as proof at all.

With all the talk about Rudy doing burglaries we really only have one example that is close to this break-in and that is the lawyers' office. I linked the picture of the balcony and it is far different from the cottage.

I don't doubt that Rudy could make it into the window but I'd have done it differently. Maybe a have two basketball players the size and age of Rudy show how easy it would be.
 
<snip>It simply makes no sense to assume the prosecution had an agenda to publish bloody bathroom pictures on the Daily Mirror in order to influence the public opinion. This is a point which is just obvious to any Italian. You may either see that, or not see that.<snip>

About four years ago on Candace's blog, you said the same thing about the concept of "saving face."

You have perspective on aspects of our culture that we can't see because we are too close to it. The same goes for us being able to see aspects of your culture that you can't see because you are too close to it.

To you, it is ridiculous that Mignini would allow crime photos to be leaked or that he would lie and cheat to protect his reputation and pride. To us, the idea that Amanda would use cryptic language associated mafia-style communication is beyond absurd.
 
About four years ago on Candace's blog, you said the same thing about the concept of "saving face."

You have perspective on aspects of our culture that we can't see because we are too close to it. The same goes for us being able to see aspects of your culture that you can't see because you are too close to it.

To you, it is ridiculous that Mignini would allow crime photos to be leaked or that he would lie and cheat to protect his reputation and pride. To us, the idea that Amanda would use cryptic language associated mafia-style communication is beyond absurd.

Jesus, Mary and Joseph, Mary! Anyone would think we were discussing cultures from different planets trying to understand each other!
 
Amanda and Raffaele were the ones who were defamed; they are the ones who should be suing against the crimes of false allegations, and hopefully they will. Everything -- absolutely everything -- that has been said about Mignini has been in reaction to the crimes he committed in his defamation campaign against two innocent defendants. If he didn't want people to find fault with him, he shouldn't have been so flagrant.

But it's plain false. The facts are, Mignini just prosecuted three people. The prosecution did not engieneer any media campaign: what they had to say, they said it in court.
And - this is almost an irony - it seems like people here don't even know what Mignini actually said in court.
I just don't recall a single comment Mignini ever made against Knox outside the courtroom.
And as for what he said in the courtroom, the first thing he said were in 2008, before Micheli and behind closed doors, and there was nothing defamatory - except the fact that it is an accusation speech in a murder case.

You've completely sidestepped my point about how using the media would be against the law if it were not something the legal community relied on and enabled.

No, just I didn't understand the point.
It is not illegal to "use" the media. In particular, it is not necessarily illegal to leak information, unless it's classified information or legally non-publishable material.
It is illegal to make false claims about other people, like saying "Mr. X did this", when it's false.

I have no opinion about the bloody bathroom photos, but the fact is, the media that engineered a campaign against Raffaele and Amanda got most of their information from Perugia.

Well Perugia is a place (a city with 160,000 residents and hundreds of thousands visitors), not a person.
Then, as you say the media engineered a campaigh against Sollecito and Knox, well, that's a very disputable claim. I actually read of this case from the Italian press and did not notice any partitularly nasty attitude by the press, so actually I wonder what press you refer to; what articles and what newspapers you are thinking about.
Were Manuela Sarzanini and Meo Ponte orchestrating a campaign against three no-ones (don't forget Rudy Guede)? It's hardly so. Where is this defamatory campaign?
Reporting pages of Knox's diary, the written note she wrote herself, is that a defamatory campaign? Or is it reporting true documents?

Ironically, here is what Mignini said at the appeal trail:
..
Now, why didn't they say that at the trial of first instance?

Actually he said this at the preliminary hearing. Before judge Micheli, there was where the prosecution adressed the media campaign most.
 
About four years ago on Candace's blog, you said the same thing about the concept of "saving face."

You have perspective on aspects of our culture that we can't see because we are too close to it. The same goes for us being able to see aspects of your culture that you can't see because you are too close to it.

To you, it is ridiculous that Mignini would allow crime photos to be leaked or that he would lie and cheat to protect his reputation and pride. To us, the idea that Amanda would use cryptic language associated mafia-style communication is beyond absurd.

Beyond absurd. I just think it is hilarious. Where was Amanda trained in this secret Mafia code?
 
Sorry, we are going to disagree forever on this.
As for your information, my experience about 'scientific method' is not that 'limited' as you guess. I instead make the educated guess that your idea of scientific method is rigid and wrong.



A stetement like this - under the POV of scientific method - is riddled with arbitrary and vague concepts. The term 'precautions' is totally vague, it doesn't mean anything itself. It might have to do with a concept of technical procedure, that is within a very limited scope, but itself is totally vague and doesn't mean anything on a scientific point of view.
The term 'contamination' without any specification is also totally vague and, itself, irrelevant to the point. The fact that 'contamination happens' is itself irrelevant, because we are not interested in the generic phenomenon of contamination (as I said, moreover, any DNA finding is itself contamination by definition).



Again, the term 'properly' has no precise meaning.
But the whole point is beyond these aspects (which are epistemology and not law).

The legal question is not whether the DNA findings (we are talking about at least two DNA findings now, but in fact there are more on the scene) are certain under a 'scientific' viewpoint or not. This is not the question. The question is whether they are pieces of circumstantial evidence. And evidence is not about scientifc realities, but about historical events, themselves defined as unrepeatable and often unverifiable events. So pieces of evidence must be, by definition, not subjected to technical/scientific cautionary paradigms.
So, sorry, the point is absolutely not in the terms how you put it.

The evidence assessment does not obey to cautionary standards put by other disciplines, but instead makes its own assessment, and assessment is based not on others' standards but on probability assessment about historical events. If your alternatice 'innocent' explanation is that you have a theory about contamination, which is a theory about one specific issue of contamination from Meredith's DNA on one unique and specific item, then you need to provide an explanation about a mechanism that describes the event and document the probability of its occurrence.

The rest, is just making up how law works.



Yes but this is just your arbitrary assessment about others' 'reputation' (and based on a falsification of facts).
Facts are that the laboratory never prevented the defence to access data of any kind.
Facts are that the defence chose to not attend the test, to not access the laboratory. Except Prof. Vinci who requested to access the fingerprint analysis laboratory and to analyze the pillowcase, no defence expert ever requested raw data nor access to laboratory documentation over the nine month investigation.

Moreover, the defence did not even request the raw data at the prelimiary hearing (as the transcripts and the defence themselves documented). The defence requested the rawa data the first time by the end of the first instance trial (yes it was the end of the trial, after all witnesses had been heared and evidence had been already discussed: after what we call the discussion phase).
And finally, Stefanoni never refused to offer any data: it was the judge who decided the late defence request was inadmissible.



This is what others here would call a 'pedantic' argument. Physicians don't wait for matemathical proof, they do work with uncertainity and incomplete information, but uncertainity is not equivalent to absence of clinical evidence. They obviously decide tretment only on evidence, or on factual grounds that this is necessary.
Btw, just like physicians, judges work with imperfect and incomplete pieces of information too.
This just reinforces you do not do practical stuff. there was a recent case in the UK of companies selling bomb detection equipment that worked on the same principle as water divining. On your argument that this is all evidence whether arrived at by following a proven methodology or not, then evidence derived from divining or even graphological analysis of Ms. Knox's hand writing to interpret her state of health is equally valid to the court. The problem is that it is not true if you get a result from a machine it only has meaning if it has been used correctly. Otherwise all you have is noise not evidence.

The problem is I so see exactly what happened in this lab. At some point a tech was under pressure to get a result; so they ran a swab across something. It had no microscopically visible biological material, it had no chemically detectable biological material, it had no detectable DNA, but if you ramped up the sensitivity of the detector ran more cycles of the PCR you could eventually pick up a result. Maybe not always, but sometimes. So this became a lab myth, lab culture. If you really need to get a result this is what to do. The reality is this is the contamination. If you do not like the word contamination (the rest of the world knows exactly what is meant by this term) then this is a false positive.

Re physicians vs judges. Physicians should treat if there is a suspicion, judges should convict if there is certainty.

Last word the principle here is GIGO.
 
About four years ago on Candace's blog, you said the same thing about the concept of "saving face."

You have perspective on aspects of our culture that we can't see because we are too close to it. The same goes for us being able to see aspects of your culture that you can't see because you are too close to it.

To you, it is ridiculous that Mignini would allow crime photos to be leaked or that he would lie and cheat to protect his reputation and pride. To us, the idea that Amanda would use cryptic language associated mafia-style communication is beyond absurd.

I find your post in the last times sometimes rather interesting, I mean they express somehow a more balanced view than your usual previous record.

About the idea of cryptic language. Well, I'm not sure that most American citizens won't see that; however I am ready to believe that in other parts of the world - the US in particular - many people may be not used to perceive these messages, at least not as much as Italians.

In this case, the perception of 'cryptic language' which is basically a blackmailing message to the accomplice, is just the obvious consequence of the message itself. For example, let's put a logical question (se how you would answer to it):
In a murder investigation where a knife was used to stab or slite the trhoat, the witness (or suspect) A, after explaining he/she has confused memories, unrequested, tells the police: "I remember I saw blood on the hands of Mr. X". Does this mean the person A intends to place evidence against Mr. X? Please chose an answer:
yes/no

If you answered "yes", I would say you answer was correct; it means, what I think is that it is the logical answer.
The answer is "yes", the witness/suspect A is consiously placing evidence against Mr. X.
It is theoretically possible that the person did not mean to place such evidence; however, I think that - albeit theoretically possible - the hypothesis is not reasonable. It is intrinsically extremely unlikely that the person A - given that he/she has a normal brain - is unaware that he/she is placing evidence against Mr. X.

Knox's memoir contains also another statement, the one where she says: "I am aware Raffaele has placed evidence against me". (I quote by memory).
So the writer is also aware that Mr. X has placed evidence against her. This emphasizes the concept that she seems to be aware about what placing evidence agaisnt an accomplice means.
 
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This just reinforces you do not do practical stuff. there was a recent case in the UK of companies selling bomb detection equipment that worked on the same principle as water divining. On your argument that this is all evidence whether arrived at by following a proven methodology or not, then evidence derived from divining or even graphological analysis of Ms. Knox's hand writing to interpret her state of health is equally valid to the court. The problem is that it is not true if you get a result from a machine it only has meaning if it has been used correctly. Otherwise all you have is noise not evidence.

The problem is I so see exactly what happened in this lab. At some point a tech was under pressure to get a result; so they ran a swab across something. It had no microscopically visible biological material, it had no chemically detectable biological material, it had no detectable DNA, but if you ramped up the sensitivity of the detector ran more cycles of the PCR you could eventually pick up a result. Maybe not always, but sometimes. So this became a lab myth, lab culture. If you really need to get a result this is what to do. The reality is this is the contamination. If you do not like the word contamination (the rest of the world knows exactly what is meant by this term) then this is a false positive.

Re physicians vs judges. Physicians should treat if there is a suspicion, judges should convict if there is certainty.

Last word the principle here is GIGO.

I am enjoying your posts. Sounds like common sense science. Glad you are here.
 
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