General Holocaust Denial Discussion Part II

[CaptainHowdy]

There are some descriptions of transports, although for only a fraction of the total. Here is one such document. I do not know of any that give the names of those transported.

There has to be a method of identifying individual Jews who were sent to the death camps and never seen again. Earlier I asked a very abstract and pretty much unanswerable question: Where did the Jews who survived the Holocaust go? The dominant response seemed to be confusion about what I was asking. Some of the most specific answers were "They mostly emigrated, and began telling their stories of thei horrible losses of their other family members to the evil of the Nazis" or "The answer to your question is: everywhere. They went everywhere. Some ended up behind the iron curtain, some emigrated to Israel. There was a movement in the US to bring survivors here, especially relatives of American Jews. There was a Jewish community in Hong Kong. There was a movie made about Jews who fled to Africa. Canada, France, England - everybody went everywhere."

The answers I got were what I anticipated. I asked that very abstract question because there seems to be a belief that the only way to prove that the Holocaust did not happen is to find the "missing Jews" that everybody agrees were killed. It's even been implied that specific physical attributes of the Holocaust such as fitting an average of 14 corpses in a cubic meter of mass grave burial space cannot be false unless these "missing Jews" are found.

I submit that if nobody can tell me in the abstract sense where the Jews who survived the Holocaust went, how would being unable to locate the Jews who didn't survive the Holocaust in the abstract sense prove or disprove anything? How do we distinguish between "missing Jews" and "not missing Jews" if we don't know where any of them went? Aren't they all missing? And if the "missing Jews" survived the Holocaust, then they are Jews who survived the Holocaust. So they went where all the Holocaust survivors went.

So there are no "missing Jews" in the abstract sense that need to be found before the Holocaust can be challenged. But there can still be "missing Jews." But they would have to be "missing" in the concrete sense. What I mean is that we would need the names of specific Jews who were sent to a death camp and then never seen again. That's the only way the concept of "missing Jews" could have any meaning.

If there are no lists that give the names of Jews that were transported to a death camp and no way to determine individual Jews who were sent to the death camps, how can any Jews be considered missing?

 

[Nessie]

There are lists of names of Jews reported as missing after the War and who have never been seen since. If they had all be resettled elsewhere then we would know by now as they would be reuniting themselves with family and friends.

Then many went missing after they were last reported as being seen leaving a ghetto to board a train to a camp. Or at a camp they were last seen being taken away in a group after the people were divided up on arrival. None of tgat group have been seen since.

Many people went missing during the War. Many in circumstances whereby they are missing presumed dead. For me one of the most horrific tragedies was the number of missing children. The Red Cross and other agencies set up missing person bureaus to help deal with the problem.

For the Jews the missing was not so much under the chaos of war. It was whilst they were under control by the Nazis. The Nazis were there when they went missing and so many went missing last seen heading to or whilst at a death camp.

 

[Border Reiver]

There are the records of the Dutch, which can document who was deported to which camp. And the fact that only about 1/10th the Dutch Jewish population was left after the War.

 

[A'isha]

So there are no "missing Jews" in the abstract sense that need to be found before the Holocaust can be challenged. But there can still be "missing Jews." But they would have to be "missing" in the concrete sense. What I mean is that we would need the names of specific Jews who were sent to a death camp and then never seen again. That's the only way the concept of "missing Jews" could have any meaning.

If there are no lists that give the names of Jews that were transported to a death camp and no way to determine individual Jews who were sent to the death camps, how can any Jews be considered missing?

As Border Riever noted, the Dutch have assembled the records of what is known about the lives and fates of their pre-War Jewish population who were murdered by the Nazis during the Holocaust (that is, it does not list known survivors).

Here are the names of the 56,000 or so of them who were deported to Auschwitz, and never seen alive again.

 

[Matthew Ellard]

There are lists of names of Jews reported as missing after the War and who have never been seen since. If they had all be resettled elsewhere then we would know by now as they would be reuniting themselves with family and friends.

Exactly. The service that reunited Jewish holocaust D.P.s was The International Tracing Service in Bad Arolsen, Germany.

http://www.its-arolsen.org/en/homepage/index.html

As early as 1943 and on the initiative of the Allied Forces Headquarters at the British Red Cross in London, the Department of International Affairs was transformed into a Tracing Bureau. The new service began with the task of tracing and registering missing persons.

On July 1, 1947, the IRO (International Refugee Organization) took over the Central Tracing Bureau, giving it the new name “International Tracing Service” (ITS) on January 1, 1948, by which it is known today.
In April 1951, the ITS was placed under the management of HICOG (Allied High Commission for Germany).

While preparations were being made in 1954 to revoke Germany’s status as occupied territory, steps were taken to ensure the continued existence of the ITS. The service was to pursue its activities under the umbrella of an international commission and would be managed by an entirely neutral and impartial institution, the ICRC (International Committee of the Red Cross) in Geneva.

 

[MaxMurx]

...and never seen alive again.

What does that mean? Did they have to register before being deported and to re register after coming back?

 

[MaxMurx]

I remeber a sentence from the Korherr report (I don't have the source anymore) which said about the Jews: "...bald eine Million sind in den Wirren des Krieges verschwunden...." which translates into: "...nearly one Million have disappeared in the chaos of war....". It actually was translated: "...one Million soon will have been disappeared in the chaos of war.." by misusing the double meaning of the word "bald", its meaning being derived from its position in the sentence. The second sentence in German would be: "...eine Million sind bald in den Wirren des Krieges verschwunden....".

 

[Loss Leader]

Here's the list of Holocaust victims from my grandfather's town including my great uncle and his family.

 

[MaxMurx]

Here's the list of Holocaust victims from my grandfather's town including my great uncle and his family.

The list contains under A - D roughly 250 names. 70 of those persons have no first names. Those are listed as: "a child", "a daughter", "his wife". Although being headlined "Holocaust Martyrs" the list does not say: "When did they go", "Where did they go" and how it can be concluded how, when and where they disappeared when only half of the name is known. Is that called "accurate accounting"?

 

[Clayton Moore]

True. Logically, if hundreds of thousands of Jews are known to have been sent to the camps they either remained there or they did not remain there. What is the evidence they were sent there in the first place? Are there passenger lists or transport manifests that distinctly give names/dates of Jews embarking from a specific train station and traveling along a specific route with stops along the way that name, say, Treblinka as the final destination? If schedules of such detail survived the war and none of the Jews whose final destination was Treblinka was never seen again, it's pretty obvious what happened. But would the Germans keep records of such detail if they wanted the extermination to remain a secret?



Were all of the death camps refered to as "transit camps" in the German documents? Are there German documents that refer to "transit camps that are recognized as not being a death camp?

That number may be accurate but how did millions get killed in those camps if only hundreds of thousands arrived?

 

[Clayton Moore]

There are lists of names of Jews reported as missing after the War and who have never been seen since. If they had all be resettled elsewhere then we would know by now as they would be reuniting themselves with family and friends.

Then many went missing after they were last reported as being seen leaving a ghetto to board a train to a camp. Or at a camp they were last seen being taken away in a group after the people were divided up on arrival. None of tgat group have been seen since.

Many people went missing during the War. Many in circumstances whereby they are missing presumed dead. For me one of the most horrific tragedies was the number of missing children. The Red Cross and other agencies set up missing person bureaus to help deal with the problem.

For the Jews the missing was not so much under the chaos of war. It was whilst they were under control by the Nazis. The Nazis were there when they went missing and so many went missing last seen heading to or whilst at a death camp.

If a million Jewish children, women, and men went to the camps and were exterminated/gassed in one year and never heard from again would another million Jewish children, women, and men go to the same camps and and get exterminated/gassed the next year?

If TWO million Jewish children, women, and men went to the camps and were exterminated/gassed in TWO years and never heard from again would another million Jewish children, women, and men go to the same camps and and get exterminated/gassed the next year?

1990 Population of Dallas 1006877

3 million exterminated/gassed in three years is a flat out lie. The Holocaust myth is nothing more than a hoax to enable the world's Zionists to further their agendas.

The Holocaust is both the foundation and the Achilles heel of Zionist control of gentiles. If the Holocaust Lie fails, then so does Zionist control.

 

[Dcdrac]

Clayton there were various methods the Nazis used to murder the jews of Europe and thousands of camps and more than 100,000 got sent to the camps you have been told this again and again yet you choose to ignore it.

 

[Border Reiver]

That number may be accurate but how did millions get killed in those camps if only hundreds of thousands arrived?

Not all the victims of the Holocaust were killed in the camps.

 

[Clayton Moore]

If the Holocaust by Auschwitz id a fabrication the Holocaust is mostly fabrication and mostly lies.

The Auschwitz/Holocaust Lie in a nutshell.

The notion that Auschwitz was a 'death camp' is ludicrous #1: You don't build swimming pools, organize orchestras, have a camp hospital, print camp currency and establish a brothel for inmates who are going to be killed.

The notion that Auschwitz was a 'death camp' is ludicrous #2: You don't hang guards for abusing prisoners who are going to be killed, as the nazis did.
The notion that Auschwitz was a 'death camp' is ludicrous #3: High nazi muckamucks don't send around memos, as Himmler did, declaring that the death rate in the camps 'absolutely' must be reduced when the inmates are there to be killed.

The notion that Auschwitz was a 'death camp' is ludicrous #4: Auschwitz was a huge industrial center which manufactured products critical to the German war effort. Shipping people to an industrial center in order to kill them is the height of absurdity.

http://www.thebirdman.org/Index/Jews/Jews-TheHolocaustIsABigJewishLie.html

 

[CaptainHowdy]

That number may be accurate but how did millions get killed in those camps if only hundreds of thousands arrived?

Hundreds of thousands were sent to individual camps. Add up the victims at the individual camps and you get millions.

Instead of writing

"True. Logically, if hundreds of thousands of Jews are known to have been sent to the camps..."

I could have written "True. Logically, if millions of Jews are known to have been sent to the camps...." Then somebody would have asked me which camp received millions of Jews. I just can't win.

 

[000063]

If a million Jewish children, women, and men went to the camps and were exterminated/gassed in one year and never heard from again would another million Jewish children, women, and men go to the same camps and and get exterminated/gassed the next year?

If TWO million Jewish children, women, and men went to the camps and were exterminated/gassed in TWO years and never heard from again would another million Jewish children, women, and men go to the same camps and and get exterminated/gassed the next year?

1990 Population of Dallas 1006877

3 million exterminated/gassed in three years is a flat out lie. The Holocaust myth is nothing more than a hoax to enable the world's Zionists to further their agendas.

The Holocaust is both the foundation and the Achilles heel of Zionist control of gentiles. If the Holocaust Lie fails, then so does Zionist control.

Why do you keep trying this nonsense? Jews could be forced at gunpoint to go to the camps, and there was significant armed Jewish resistance.

http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10005213
http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10005441
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/resisttoc.html

You've been told this before. Several times, IIRC.

 

[Clayton Moore]

There has to be a method of identifying individual Jews who were sent to the death camps and never seen again. Earlier I asked a very abstract and pretty much unanswerable question: Where did the Jews who survived the Holocaust go? The dominant response seemed to be confusion about what I was asking. Some of the most specific answers were "They mostly emigrated, and began telling their stories of thei horrible losses of their other family members to the evil of the Nazis" or "The answer to your question is: everywhere. They went everywhere. Some ended up behind the iron curtain, some emigrated to Israel. There was a movement in the US to bring survivors here, especially relatives of American Jews. There was a Jewish community in Hong Kong. There was a movie made about Jews who fled to Africa. Canada, France, England - everybody went everywhere."

The answers I got were what I anticipated. I asked that very abstract question because there seems to be a belief that the only way to prove that the Holocaust did not happen is to find the "missing Jews" that everybody agrees were killed. It's even been implied that specific physical attributes of the Holocaust such as fitting an average of 14 corpses in a cubic meter of mass grave burial space cannot be false unless these "missing Jews" are found.

I submit that if nobody can tell me in the abstract sense where the Jews who survived the Holocaust went, how would being unable to locate the Jews who didn't survive the Holocaust in the abstract sense prove or disprove anything? How do we distinguish between "missing Jews" and "not missing Jews" if we don't know where any of them went? Aren't they all missing? And if the "missing Jews" survived the Holocaust, then they are Jews who survived the Holocaust. So they went where all the Holocaust survivors went.

So there are no "missing Jews" in the abstract sense that need to be found before the Holocaust can be challenged. But there can still be "missing Jews." But they would have to be "missing" in the concrete sense. What I mean is that we would need the names of specific Jews who were sent to a death camp and then never seen again. That's the only way the concept of "missing Jews" could have any meaning.

If there are no lists that give the names of Jews that were transported to a death camp and no way to determine individual Jews who were sent to the death camps, how can any Jews be considered missing?

You're barking under the wrong trees. The victims are ghosts. You'll be running around circles forever trying to pin down ghosts.

You need to agree that the fabricated numbers are valid and analyze the work, transportation, effort, oversight, participation, visibility, time frames, fuel, equipment required by/involved with the alleged ongoing genocide/gassings.

You then need analyze the work, transportation, effort, oversight, participation, visibility, time frames, fuel, equipment involved with the activities going on apart from the alleged ongoing genocide/gassings.

As a side note I think you'll find the "camps" were minimum security and the inmates had pretty much the run of the camp.

Then there was always the annual winter weather monkey wrench, three years worth.

 

[Degeneve]

If a million Jewish children, women, and men went to the camps and were exterminated/gassed in one year and never heard from again would another million Jewish children, women, and men go to the same camps and and get exterminated/gassed the next year?

Well, il I remember well, they had no other choice than going where they were ordered to go or be killed where they were. So they went.

If TWO million Jewish children, women, and men went to the camps and were exterminated/gassed in TWO years and never heard from again would another million Jewish children, women, and men go to the same camps and and get exterminated/gassed the next year?

Yes. Mainly because they were told they would be relocated to a better place. The lies that have been told by the nazis to the jews for getting them to move are well documented.

1990 Population of Dallas 1006877

3 million exterminated/gassed in three years is a flat out lie. The Holocaust myth is nothing more than a hoax to enable the world's Zionists to further their agendas.

Right! and the hundreds of historians who have written countless books and articles where they explain that the holocaust happened and how it happened are all zionists or part of the zionit plot (and of course handsomely paid for their help in promoting the plot)...

The Holocaust is both the foundation and the Achilles heel of Zionist control of gentiles. If the Holocaust Lie fails, then so does Zionist control.

I must have been misinformed. I was convinced that the foundation of the zionist control of gentiles were the protocols of the elders of Zion...

 

[Nessie]

If a million Jewish children, women, and men went to the camps and were exterminated/gassed in one year and never heard from again would another million Jewish children, women, and men go to the same camps and and get exterminated/gassed the next year?

If TWO million Jewish children, women, and men went to the camps and were exterminated/gassed in TWO years and never heard from again would another million Jewish children, women, and men go to the same camps and and get exterminated/gassed the next year?

1990 Population of Dallas 1006877

3 million exterminated/gassed in three years is a flat out lie. The Holocaust myth is nothing more than a hoax to enable the world's Zionists to further their agendas.

The Holocaust is both the foundation and the Achilles heel of Zionist control of gentiles. If the Holocaust Lie fails, then so does Zionist control.

This dispute about numbers murdered does not mean the Holocaust is a lie. There was a stated aim of ethnic cleansing by Hitler, that became a stated aim of Jewish deaths at Wannsee. That is then backed up by the remains of the death camps and human remains which have been found. Then there is the witness testimony.

If more accurate numbers for the dead had come out after the War and at the Nuremberg Trials and then into popular history, the revisionist/deniers would have nothing to go on.

 

[Nessie]

If the Holocaust by Auschwitz id a fabrication the Holocaust is mostly fabrication and mostly lies.

The Auschwitz/Holocaust Lie in a nutshell.





http://www.thebirdman.org/Index/Jews/Jews-TheHolocaustIsABigJewishLie.html

Auschwitz was not one camp, it was a complex of different camps with different purposes with different prisoners from Jews to Gypsies to British POWs. The different people in the different camps were treated differently.

It is hilarious to say that because there was a swimming pool in Auschwitz I there was no death camp at Birkenau and because work took place at Monowitz there was no death camp at Birkenau. Heres a map for you to understand that better

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/auenvironmap.html