JFK's assassination: your thoughts

[Soily]

A simple, "I have no answer or explanation" is sufficient.

If only the lone nut theorists were so honest eh?

The problem is, 50 years down the live, with most witnesses dead, an incompetently conducted original investigation, destroyed, lost and tainted evidence, it is now sadly impossible to say, specifically, what actually happened.

It is however, possible to say way beyond any responsible doubt, what didn't happen.

 

[Soily]

Erm, he could have washed his face after he fired the rifle, but before he fired the revolver.




(source)

Even granting for the sake of argument that her estimate is accurate, four minutes would likely have been sufficient time for Oswald to have changed his shirt, put on a jacket, and splashed water on his face in the bathroom. She also didn't follow him to observe whether he did or didn't enter the bathroom on his way to or from his room, and she was clearly preoccupied with the television at the time.

Oswald's room was just a cupboard with a bed and some drawers in it. It didn't have a bathroom. If he also visited the bathoom without her noticing to wash his face, then he would have washed the nitrates off the palm of his hands aswell. Firing a revolver would deposit nitrates on the back of the hands, not the palms. The fact he had more nitrates on the palms of his hands pretty definitely establishes he hadn't washed them.

 

[Mudcat]

As explained several times, the paraffin tests are irrelevant. It's the NAA tests that are important. NAA tests are not unreliable.

Regardless of which test you wish to put forward, the fact remains that it would be odd to find gunshot residue on the face of a shooter who has used a riffle.

Which brings us back to the original question, namely why is the the lack of gunshot residue on his face so important to you?

 

[RoboTimbo]

A bag more than half your own height is huge by any normal estimation.


The official story affords him no such practice. Not only is the rifle hidden in the Paine's garage for months before the shooting, the entire 6th floor is occupied by a floor laying crew the whole morning until just before lunch. And then until around 12:15 Bonnie Ray Williams is alone on the 6th floor having his lunch. With the motorcade expected around 12:20-25, that affords Oswald only 5 minutes to prepare everything.


So now he's roaming a busy office building with dozens of employees with a rifle and nobody notices? Amazing.


Its in the HSCA report.



As the official story can only have this rearrangement of boxes done by Oswald, that means he hung around in the snipers nest for at least a minute after the shooting. This makes his meeting with Marion Baker, allegedly on the 2nd floor only 70-90 seconds after the assassination absolutely astonishing.

That some people are prepared to believe Oswald was a kind of semi magical being, capable of defying both the laws of physics and time, is fairly surprising to say the least.

So nobody shot JFK?

 

[BStrong]

A bag more than half your own height is huge by any normal estimation.


The official story affords him no such practice. Not only is the rifle hidden in the Paine's garage for months before the shooting, the entire 6th floor is occupied by a floor laying crew the whole morning until just before lunch. And then until around 12:15 Bonnie Ray Williams is alone on the 6th floor having his lunch. With the motorcade expected around 12:20-25, that affords Oswald only 5 minutes to prepare everything.


So now he's roaming a busy office building with dozens of employees with a rifle and nobody notices? Amazing.


Its in the HSCA report.



As the official story can only have this rearrangement of boxes done by Oswald, that means he hung around in the snipers nest for at least a minute after the shooting. This makes his meeting with Marion Baker, allegedly on the 2nd floor only 70-90 seconds after the assassination absolutely astonishing.

That some people are prepared to believe Oswald was a kind of semi magical being, capable of defying both the laws of physics and time, is fairly surprising to say the least.

Not at all - some of us know that all clocks and watches aren't sync'd to each other -right now, offical time via my computer is 12:35pm PST - my watch (automatic movement) says 3:41pm - and I corrected the time two weeks ago.

Timelines are fallible, just like people.

 

[SpitfireIX]

Oswald's room was just a cupboard with a bed and some drawers in it. It didn't have a bathroom. If he also visited the bathoom without her noticing to wash his face, then he would have washed the nitrates off the palm of his hands aswell. Firing a revolver would deposit nitrates on the back of the hands, not the palms. The fact he had more nitrates on the palms of his hands pretty definitely establishes he hadn't washed them.

No. He reloaded his revolver after he fired it. Handling the recently fired weapon that way would have deposited gunshot residue on the palms of his hands.

 

[JayUtah]

If only the lone nut theorists were so honest eh?

Personal attacks not needed. You were caught trying to make it sound unreasonable for you to be asked questions about your ability to explain the evidence. Don't assume you have the high moral ground here.

...it is now sadly impossible to say, specifically, what actually happened.

It is however, possible to say way beyond any responsible doubt, what didn't happen.

Every investigator in the world waits with bated breath to hear you explain just how evidence works to produce just such a result.

I'm still baffled at why you think it's a useful or valid investigative process to simply erode the prevailing view without alternative, and then say you've refuted it.

 

[RoboTimbo]

If only the lone nut theorists were so honest eh?

The problem is, 50 years down the live, with most witnesses dead, an incompetently conducted original investigation, destroyed, lost and tainted evidence, it is now sadly impossible to say, specifically, what actually happened.

It is however, possible to say way beyond any responsible doubt, what didn't happen.

The Warren Commission was able to say beyond a reasonable doubt what did happen. No CT has ever been able to refute it but perhaps you'll be different.

So, who shot JR JFK? Give a timeline for what happened, who did it, how they did it, from where, using what means. Be sure that your alternative, coherent theory accounts for all the evidence.

 

[kookbreaker]

A bag more than half your own height is huge by any normal estimation.

Not really. I use 37" long Priority Mail boxes all the time. That's more than 1/2 my height. Its a much higher percentage of the mailwoman. Myabe long, but not huge. Sorry.

The official story affords him no such practice.

He regularly played with his rifle. usally by dry firing and operating the bolt. He did that on his porch. We don't have anyone saying he practice taking down and rebuilding the rifle but he was practicing just about everything else according to Marina, and Descontructing your weapon is part of both military training and firearm maintenance. Why do you have a problem with it?

Not only is the rifle hidden in the Paine's garage for months before the shooting,

It's not something you just forget.

the entire 6th floor is occupied by a floor laying crew the whole morning until just before lunch.

And by no means do any of them have a full, or even partial view of the entire floor. Book boxes tend to take up a lot of real estate, horizontally and vetically.

And then until around 12:15 Bonnie Ray Williams is alone on the 6th floor having his lunch. With the motorcade expected around 12:20-25, that affords Oswald only 5 minutes to prepare everything.

Move a couple of boxes and find the rifle. Not hard.

So now he's roaming a busy office building with dozens of employees with a rifle and nobody notices? Amazing.

Umm. No. Why do you think he could not hide it after assembling it?

Its in the HSCA report.

Better quote it then.

As the official story can only have this rearrangement of boxes done by Oswald, that means he hung around in the snipers nest for at least a minute after the shooting. This makes his meeting with Marion Baker, allegedly on the 2nd floor only 70-90 seconds after the assassination absolutely astonishing.

Assuming that what you claim is true (and I have my doubts) 70-90 seconds for, what? 4 flights of downstairs? Really?

And mind you, here is Mr. All-About-the-Politics decides he's going to sit in the lunch room when the President goes by? yeah. Sure.

That some people are prepared to believe Oswald was a kind of semi magical being, capable of defying both the laws of physics and time, is fairly surprising to say the least.

70-90 seconds to cross a room, dump a rifle between boxes, go down 4 flights of stairs and go into a lunch room. That ain't magic. I can cover up and down 2 flights of stairs at a moderate walking pace in 30 seconds.

 

[Soily]

Not at all - some of us know that all clocks and watches aren't sync'd to each other -right now, offical time via my computer is 12:35pm PST - my watch (automatic movement) says 3:41pm - and I corrected the time two weeks ago.

Timelines are fallible, just like people.

Sure that's true. But the actions of Baker were reconstructed by the WC, and this, coupled with what he did having been captured on films, allows us to narrow the timespan of his encounter to about 70-90 seconds after the shooting (with the caveat that you believe the 2nd floor lunchroom encounter ever happened at all).

The HSCA found that boxes were moved in the minute or so after the assassination. This makes the Baker encounter preposterous by any rational assessment of the timings.

Oswald has to be rendered a supernatural being for it to work.

 

[Soily]

The Warren Commission was able to say beyond a reasonable doubt what did happen. No CT has ever been able to refute it but perhaps you'll be different.

Unfortunately, just saying it does not make it true. Every single piece of the evidence against Oswald disintegrates at the slightest interrogation.

It's good enough though, because however inadequate the evidence is, some people will believe anything because the government says so.

 

[Soily]

No. He reloaded his revolver after he fired it. Handling the recently fired weapon that way would have deposited gunshot residue on the palms of his hands.

Unlikely to have deposited more GSR on the palms since the palms are against the weapon when it's fired.

 

[Soily]

Personal attacks not needed. You were caught trying to make it sound unreasonable for you to be asked questions about your ability to explain the evidence. Don't assume you have the high moral ground here.



Every investigator in the world waits with bated breath to hear you explain just how evidence works to produce just such a result.

I'm still baffled at why you think it's a useful or valid investigative process to simply erode the prevailing view without alternative, and then say you've refuted it.

The only thing a defence has to do in a criminal case is cast reasonable doubt on the claims of the prosecution. There is absolutely no burden of proof on them to provide an alternative explanation of what did happen.

 

[Stamuel]

I am trying to piece together the alternative scenario on offer here. Here is what I gather:



Thursday, Oswald told Buell Frazier that he needed to get curtain rods from Irving. This was a lie to avoid talking about marital problems. The next day, Buell picked up Oswald. Oswald had his lunch in a two+ foot long bag. One witness said the bag almost touched the ground when he carried it. Buell asked him what was in the bag, and Oswald told him it was curtain rods, apparently really trying to sell the lie from the day before. Although it was lunch in a normal lunch bag, Buell accepted that it was curtain rods.



Oswald never owned a rifle and certainly never kept one in Irving, though Marina thought he did. To frame Oswald, the conspirators ordered a rifle using someone else's name, someone that could not receive mail at Oswald's PO box. They paid with a phony money order that the sporting goods company never cashed. The company also sent the wrong rifle in a way that violated postal laws. The company was in on it, and the uncashed money order and incorrect rifle were needed by the conspirators to sjcuhancxomajfrubcidlsnfigghh.



Anyway, Oswald got to work the day of the assassination and took his two foot lunch into the building. At some point he touched and left his prints on an enormous bag that was so huge he could not stay away from it. (This massive giant of a bag had no known purpose and was not there after the assassination until it showed up in police reports.)



Sometime that day the conspirators' guy got to the sixth floor of the TBSD with the rifle. No one saw this person, or it was one of the other TSBD employees. This person shot the president and got out of the building without being seen, or was an employee who calmly hung around after killing the president (but I guess we can rule this out since calmness proves innocence).



Meanwhile, Oswald who had done nothing wrong left the TSBD immediately after the assassination, having been in the lunch room or domino room or wherever. He eventually made his way to the boarding house where he was staying. He grabbed his pistol, maybe changed clothes, put on a jacket and left.



A short time later, nearby a conspirator shot Officer Tippit in front of several witnesses, who will later pick out Oswald. This conspirator wa never found or identified.



At some point later, Oswald ditched his jacket. Then, while walking he ducked into a store doorway as a cop car went by. This act raised the suspicion of a store clerk, who notified the police. Then Oswald snuck into a theater without paying. When the cops showed up he drew his pistol.



Sound right? Did I miss anything?

 

[RoboTimbo]

Unfortunately, just saying it does not make it true. Every single piece of the evidence against Oswald disintegrates at the slightest interrogation.

Just saying it does not make it true. No, the Warren Commission got it right and the CTs have languished in the shadows. Who knows, maybe you'll be different.

It's good enough though, because however inadequate the evidence is, some people will believe anything because the government says so.

Or they believe the evidence. Some, however, will believe any CT that comes along.

So, what is your competing, coherent theory that fits all the evidence? Everything you've said so far has been trashed. What are you holding back?

 

[RoboTimbo]

The only thing a defence has to do in a criminal case is cast reasonable doubt on the claims of the prosecution. There is absolutely no burden of proof on them to provide an alternative explanation of what did happen.

The case was already cleared with Oswald being the lone perp. Sorry, that's just the way it is. The evidence did it to him.

 

[kookbreaker]

Sound right? Did I miss anything?

The part where Oswald was also carrying the ID of and Alex Hidell when he was caught, which was coincidentally the name signed for the rifle. When confronted on this matter by the police he plays coy with them, despite the fact that it was obvious that the conspirators planted the ID on Oswald at...some point.

 

[Soily]

Not really. I use 37" long Priority Mail boxes all the time. That's more than 1/2 my height. Its a much higher percentage of the mailwoman. Myabe long, but not huge. Sorry.

You only have to see the picture of the DPD officer carrying the bag and how it goes right over his face to see that bag was huge.

He regularly played with his rifle. usally by dry firing and operating the bolt. He did that on his porch. We don't have anyone saying he practice taking down and rebuilding the rifle but he was practicing just about everything else according to Marina, and Descontructing your weapon is part of both military training and firearm maintenance. Why do you have a problem with it?

Even if you believe these stories extracted under duress from Marina, these recount events from many months before the assassination.

There is no evidence that rifle was used at all in the months before the assasination, the offical story has it wrapped in a blanket in the Paines (unwitting) possession.

And by no means do any of them have a full, or even partial view of the entire floor. Book boxes tend to take up a lot of real estate, horizontally and vetically.

That doesn't explain why Oswald would *choose* to commit the crime of the century on a floor were there are a bunch of men working, or some guy having his lunch.

Better quote it then.

HSCA volume 6 - 270

A simple trigonometric calculation shows that the two boxes at the left and right lie approximately 6 inches from the plane of the window (see appendix A). If full sunlight is falling on the additional boxes in question in the Powell photograph, they must also lie close to the plane of the window.* For this reason, the Panel concluded that the additional boxes visible in the Powell photograph were moved during the interval between the Dillard and Powell well photographs.

 

[SpitfireIX]

Unlikely to have deposited more GSR on the palms since the palms are against the weapon when it's fired.

Are you trying to say that the fact that he was holding the weapon when he fired it would have prevented gunfire residue from being deposited on the weapon? He wasn't holding the cylinder, the barrel, or the ejection lever when he fired. Please explain how there wouldn't have been residue on those parts after the revolver was fired, and how he wouldn't have touched any of those parts while reloading.

 

[kookbreaker]

You only have to see the picture of the DPD officer carrying the bag and how it goes right over his face to see that bag was huge.

Still nowhere near your hyperbole gathering 'huge'.

Even if you believe these stories extracted under duress from Marina, these recount events from many months before the assassination.

OK. I think we are done here. Marina has had conspiracy nutters whispering in her ears for decades, she had plenty of time to retract, she certainly believes there was some kind of conspiracy - BUT SHE HAS STILL STOOD BY HER STATEMENTS TO BOTH THE WC AND THE HSCA.

There is no evidence that rifle was used at all in the months before the assasination, the offical story has it wrapped in a blanket in the Paines (unwitting) possession.

Rifle assembly and disassembly is not use-it-or-lose-it knowledge.

That doesn't explain why Oswald would *choose* to commit the crime of the century on a floor were there are a bunch of men working, or some guy having his lunch.

Given his personality, it really is not surprising at all.

HSCA volume 6 - 270

"
A simple trigonometric calculation shows that the two boxes at the left and right lie approximately 6 inches from the plane of the window (see appendix A). If full sunlight is falling on the additional boxes in question in the Powell photograph, they must also lie close to the plane of the window.* For this reason, the Panel concluded that the additional boxes visible in the Powell photograph were moved during the interval between the Dillard and Powell well photographs. "

I took me a moment to realize you are talking about a couple of photos taken from below from the outside. So you are talking at most a couple of boxes that could have been bumped by accident.