Continuation Part Six: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

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Bruce Fisher said:
C&V still stands until proven false. Judge Nencini appeared to give them a vote of confidence during the first hearing, stating: "There's no reason to consider the independent experts unreliable."
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Well I guess that's a good sign since the ISC made it look the other way when they said contamination must be proven.

The C&V report will remain as part of the record just as the defense experts from the first trial that were ignored by the court will remain.

Could you provide a reliable source for "Dr. No's" (Judge Nencini) remark?
 
acbytesla said:
That makes sense. I change my mind, use liquid nitrogen and voila. Not that I have any liquid nitrogen around the house or any experience freezing molded plastic to that low a temperature.
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Missed that - but yes, better still. CO2 will do the job, though.
 
Grinder said:
tut-tut. don't you remember that they said they didn't want to destroy the pillow case and the knife with further testing?
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Until they run out of usable evidence. Then they need to return to the cottage to gather more, keep ramping up the amplification until something shows up, open the knife to look again.

Go read the list of evidence that Mignini presented to the first court to hold Amanda and Raffaele for trial. Not one single piece of that evidence has held up. Amanda and Raffaele were imprisoned with no justification and the prosecution is returning again and again desperately trying to manufacture a justification for their initial mistake.




now why was the shape unusable? how has the knife outline been used if it is unusable?
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The shape has been rendered unusable by cutting the fabric. If the real murder weapon were to show up in a plastered over hole in a wall, they would have only the pictures to make a comparison.


BTW, you are doing an excellent job of presenting the appearance that you haven't been following this case.
 
Bruce Fisher said:
Everyone I have spoken to (including Italian sources) has told me that the testing is complete. Of course we have no confirmation from the court so we will just have to wait. It looks like Vogt was just being Vogt.
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Yes, and am just now reading this input on TJMK,
which will be taken under advisement but with a grain of salt:

Monday, October 14, 2013

DNA Tests: Umbria24 Reporter Francesca Marruco Provides A Balanced Overview Of Possible Prospects

[. . . ]

Kercher trial: unconfirmed reports on Amanda’s DNA: The experts will lodge their report [their truth] on the 30th [October].
By Francesca Marruco

The “I” trace identified on the blade of the knife could have come from the American woman, however the data could lend itself to contrary interpretations. The sentence could arrive before 30 November.

In order to obtain the definitive results of the analyses that the carabinieri of the RIS in Rome are carrying out on the “I” trace identified on the blade of the knife which is considered to be the weapon with which Meredith Kercher was murdered, we will have to wait until 30 October - the day on which the experts appointed by the Assise Appeal Court of Florence will lodge their conclusions. Already on Friday, the day on which the analyses were begun in the experts’ laboratories, uncomfirmed reports began to be leaked concerning the origins of that tiny quantity of DNA. . .

Traces - It is very clear, however, that the Prosecution could claim that precisely that presence of Amanda’s DNA on the blade of the knife could be proof that Knox touched it. To peel potatoes, or to kill her flatmate Meredith, as the Prosecution holds? If it is confirmed, one can bet that the data [found by the RIS] will give rise to an “earthquake” and it will fall to the judges of the Florentine court to clear up the resuting debris.

On the other hand, they might decide not to consider it [the data] any more than the other elements [of evidence], since it effectively lends itself to a multiplicity of [possible] interpretations which cannot be confirmed at this point in time. Certainly, if that trace were that of the victim, Meredith Kercher, the proceedings might take a different direction, since there would then be two [traces] at that point, and not just one trace of the victim’s DNA which would have ended up on the blade of a knife which she never touched during her lifetime.

The certainties, or rather, the conclusions, of the experts will be lodged on 30 October. It is the 6th of November, however, which has been appointed for the hearing during which these results will be discussed before the Court and the parties.

Towards the verdict - Raffaele Sollecito may also be present in court on that date, as he announced via his lawyers, Giulia Bongiorno and Luca Maori. Sollecito intends to make various spontaneous declarations in order to affirm once again his non-involvement in the barbarious murder of Meredith Kercher, for which only Rudy Hermann Guede is currently in jail, with a sentence of 16 years in prison which has been confirmed[by the Supreme Court].

After the hearing in which the results of the tests entrusted to the Rome RIS will be discussed, it is very probable that the trial will travel rapidly towards sentencing - the fifth sentence pronounced by an Italian court with regard to Raffaele Sollecito and Amanda Knox. The Court President [leading judge], Alessandro Nencini, said during the first hearing that “this is a trial for matters of undeniable seriousness. Over and above the media circus, is Court’s desire to give all parties the most space possible for discussion, because there was a very significant sentence/conviction originally.”

By November - For this reason, “in order to obtain every possible factor for the matter we are trying here, the Court orders that the trace should be examined by the staff of the RIS in Rome”. The Florence Court’s sentence could thus arrive by the end of November, or at the latest by the end of the year. It is very unlikely that Amanda Knox will decide to be present at any of the hearings, and probably she will await the verdict in Seattle.
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http://truejustice.org/ee/index.php
 
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Bruce Fisher said:
Everyone I have spoken to (including Italian sources) has told me that the testing is complete. Of course we have no confirmation from the court so we will just have to wait. It looks like Vogt was just being Vogt.
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Thank you, Bruce.
 
Grinder said:
Well I guess that's a good sign since the ISC made it look the other way when they said contamination must be proven.

The C&V report will remain as part of the record just as the defense experts from the first trial that were ignored by the court will remain.

Could you provide a reliable source for "Dr. No's" (Judge Nencini) remark?
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Nope. It came from an Italian speaking source that was present in court, but nothing on record.

And of course, it all comes down to how Nencini's court decides to analyze the evidence as a whole. They have Massei, Hellmann, the SC, and the evidence observed in their court.

If C&V is not proven false then Nencini's court should respect the results. These were court appointed experts. This would rightly eliminate the knife as the murder weapon.

The murder weapon was never found. It's that simple.
 
Supernaut said:
Missed that - but yes, better still. CO2 will do the job, though.
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Right, liquid CO2 would probably be even better. Liquid nitrogen might freeze the knife to the point of making the steel brittle causing it to shatter as well. And that wouldn't do.
 
Antony said:
... except that CO2 has no liquid phase at atmospheric pressure.
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Damn you...:o Yes you are right. But then liquid nitrogen doesn't either. Both have to be under pressure to be liquid. I was thinking of the release of either material from a pressurized container.
 
acbytesla said:
Damn you...:o Yes you are right. But then liquid nitrogen doesn't either. Both have to be under pressure to be liquid. I was thinking of the release of either material from a pressurized container.
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Well - CO2 has a freezing point which is high enough that it can be maintained as a solid at atmospheric pressure and typical ambient temperatures, so it behaves a lttile like frozen water, but as pointed out, the liquid phase is over such a narrow temperature range at atmospheric that it seems to go from solid to gas instantaneously.

It can be maintained as a liquid at the right combination of pressure and temperature, as can nitrogen, but they're both quite narrow parameters, and difficult to arrange.
 
Supernaut said:
Well - CO2 has a freezing point which is high enough that it can be maintained as a solid at atmospheric pressure and typical ambient temperatures, so it behaves a lttile like frozen water, but as pointed out, the liquid phase is over such a narrow temperature range at atmospheric that it seems to go from solid to gas instantaneously.

It can be maintained as a liquid at the right combination of pressure and temperature, as can nitrogen, but they're both quite narrow parameters, and difficult to arrange.
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yea, but both could be used to freeze the plastic handle. We are going off track ....:D This part doesn't matter.
 
Bruce Fisher said:
Everyone I have spoken to (including Italian sources) has told me that the testing is complete. Of course we have no confirmation from the court so we will just have to wait. It looks like Vogt was just being Vogt.
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Now the guilters are calling it a "triple knife." (I guess they are remembering with nostalgia the "Amanda on the handle, Meredith on the blade" days).:)
 
acbytesla said:
Damn you...:o Yes you are right. But then liquid nitrogen doesn't either. Both have to be under pressure to be liquid. I was thinking of the release of either material from a pressurized container.
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I don't think that's right. According to Wikipedia, liquid nitrogen boils at -196C at atmospheric pressure.

Of course, Supernaut suggested using dry ice to chill the plastic knife handle, which may be as effective as a liquid.
 
Antony said:
I don't think that's right. According to Wikipedia, liquid nitrogen boils at -196C at atmospheric pressure.

Of course, Supernaut suggested using dry ice to chill the plastic knife handle, which may be as effective as a liquid.
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I've seen people in videos empty liquid nitrogen from a pressurized contain onto a banana in gaseous form and then shatter the banana. This is how I imagine the handle could be cooled and shattered as well.

That it boils at -196C is irrelevant. CO2's boiling point is -70.6. That is just the temperature at which the molecule turn into a gas.
 
Perhaps it would be neater to cool the handle to make it brittle and then smash it, but I have little doubt that the handle could be cut in a myriad of ways and removed from the blade like that. Removing the handle from the blade is not a difficult problem. I think I might give it a shot if we have a knife with an injection molded handle lying around or a plastic handle that was ultrasonically welded to together.
 
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