Continuation Part Six: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[RandyN]

And if Dempsey were filing reports for CNN you might have a point, but Dempsey is a local opinion blogger who doesn't try to mask her obvious POV on the case. Vogt is a freelance journalist who pens thinly-veiled hit pieces for national publications under the guise of objective journalism. Dempsey needs an editor. Vogt needs a course in journalistic ethics. It's interesting to note that she's doubled down on her Knox derangement syndrome even as Nadeau has moderated hers.

I think Bill is on to something re her "special" relationship with Mignini. Vogt and Follain were the the only journos who covered Mignini's Honor Bound lawsuit, complete with quotes from the man himself.

Exactly. Someone should point these problems to CNN and the others who use Vogt stuff as a basis for their stories.

I actually would love to see a real journalist do a story on all of Mignini sub-cases related to this one. That story would be enough to prove that something is seriously wrong in this mans mind and it would prove that he abuses his position and does whatever he can to win even when he clearly has no evidence in his original case. This is so obvious and so blatant that just publishing the factual details of his threats is enough. I wonder if his office would be so kind as to release all these records to a reporter...;-)

 

[Bill Williams]

Thanks to you and Bill for getting back to me on this. Regarding the above I thought that in the original statements both stated that they didn't wake up until 10am, Amanda 10 and Raf 10.30, I apologise if I'm in error, as I said I haven't looked at this for some time.

The original statements taken the night of the fifth were hardly all-inclusive of everything he did, and he didn't actually get up for the day until later that morning.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by "original statements".

If by this you mean what they told police between noon on the 2nd and 11 pm on the 5th, IMO they really had no need for themselves to remember this with detial. They'd have no cause to want to remember the night of the 1st - no one told them their liberty was on the line, and in their own minds they'd not "get" why remembering when they arose or what they did prior to that on the morning of the 2nd would be helpful in discovering what had happened to Meredith.

If it is after 11 pm on the 5th, please note that both Knox and Sollecito were subject to interrogation - and interrogation is NOT about eliciting facts. Interrogation is always about confession. It's about confessing to a scenario that police theorize is true.

The two classic signs that night are the refusal of the police to allow Sollecito to consult a calendar to clear up (in his own mind) what the difference was between Oct 30 and Nov 1 was, now that it was 4 days distant. The other is as Giobbi later said, "Knox buckled and told us what we knew to be true." Both those things are classic comments cops would make when they'd succeeded in their mission - securing a confession at interrogation.

Then again, if Knox and/or Sollecito HAD said something at interrogation about this, it's not as if there is a video tape or transcript of it. As required by Italian law!

Such is the trouble with trying to piece together what happened and when.

 

[acbytesla]

Exactly. Someone should point these problems to CNN and the others who use Vogt stuff as a basis for their stories.

I actually would love to see a real journalist do a story on all of Mignini sub-cases related to this one. That story would be enough to prove that something is seriously wrong in this mans mind and it would prove that he abuses his position and does whatever he can to win even when he clearly has no evidence in his original case. This is so obvious and so blatant that just publishing the factual details of his threats is enough. I wonder if his office would be so kind as to release all these records to a reporter...;-)

Given the story I just read about Italy, these case are just a bunch of making work for lawyers in Italy and not one of them will ever be seen through to a possible conviction. For example, what is the status of Mignini's case against Curt and Edda? All these cases are like nuisance prosecutions that tie up a defendants resources.Given the story I just read about Italy, these case are just a bunch of making work for lawyers in Italy and not one of them will ever be seen through to a possible conviction. For example, what is the status of Mignini's case against Curt and Edda? All these cases are like nuisance prosecutions that tie up a defendants resources. Eventually the cases will die on the vine.

 

[Bill Williams]

Bill what do you think the name Vogt used from the courtroom when working for PMF was?

I don't know. You need to ask Peggy Ganong. I assume the name Vogt used was, "Andrea Vogt."

 

[Grinder]

CV said the following about the material found on the knife

"A more detailed microscopic study, together with the consultation of data in the literature, allowed us to ascertain that the structures in question are attributable to granules of starch, thus matter of a vegetable nature."

Sure sounds like they said it was starch to me. I don't understand your quibbling over this point.

Tesla you are not referring to the DNA of Meredith that Stefanoni alleged she found because she DESTROYED it during the testing.

C&V identified another piece as starch.

Perhaps you have been misled by bad so-called reporting.

Randy - thanks for the post she did write:

15. Face-to-face hearing. Every reporter’s fantasy, Rudy, Amanda, Rafe, together at last Well, actually it could be for the very first time, since the prosecution has yet to offer proof that this trio knew each other let alone conspired.

Nothing in the works yet, but a reporter can dream.

Maybe she was channeling Vogt or Barbie.

 

[Grinder]

I don't know. You need to ask Peggy Ganong. I assume the name Vogt used was, "Andrea Vogt."

I asked because they did have an in court reporter named Stewarthome2000.

He didn't please some over there such as TM when he reported the washing machine wasn't warm just damp.

 

[Kaosium]

CV said the following about the material found on the knife

"A more detailed microscopic study, together with the consultation of data in the literature, allowed us to ascertain that the structures in question are attributable to granules of starch, thus matter of a vegetable nature."

Sure sounds like they said it was starch to me. I don't understand your quibbling over this point.

Well, starch won't give you 12 repeats at CSF1PO and the like, and come out looking like this.

However if Stefanoni actually dug something out of that 'shy striation' it may well have been starch and the sample contaminated at some point in the lab process. That electropherogram wasn't generated from a starch granule but it might have been a starch granule she put in the extractor which somewhere down the line was contaminated. It doesn't look like there's any actual sample in 36B, just background contamination she zoomed in on. Look at the second one down, forget the fuzzy noise line at the bottom, that's just 'cause you're zoomed up so close (look at the scale on the left!) just pretend it's flat and count the peaks. This is the opposite of the bra clasp which would look like a forest at this resolution, which the other samples do to a more limited extent, the extraneous peaks, stutter and whatnot down there. That's 'cuz in my view, and what the evidence suggests, there was no actual sample in 36B outside the contamination she picked up along the way somehow from trying to process LT DNA in a lab woefully unequipped for the task.

So while the results couldn't have been starch, it may have been starch (which wouldn't show up at all) she was testing!

 

[RandyN]

Given the story I just read about Italy, these case are just a bunch of making work for lawyers in Italy and not one of them will ever be seen through to a possible conviction. For example, what is the status of Mignini's case against Curt and Edda? All these cases are like nuisance prosecutions that tie up a defendants resources.Given the story I just read about Italy, these case are just a bunch of making work for lawyers in Italy and not one of them will ever be seen through to a possible conviction. For example, what is the status of Mignini's case against Curt and Edda? All these cases are like nuisance prosecutions that tie up a defendants resources. Eventually the cases will die on the vine.

Perhaps but when this case against Curt and Edda was filed there was a method to Mignini madness. He needed to silence anyone talking about the police abuse matters. And let me remind at this time Lumumba was silenced by starving him with the closing of his bar for no legal reason at all!

Charging American citizens for something they related to a Brit reporter from their living room in USA but not charging the paper or the reporter is abusive corruption. And not too thinly veiled abuse either. And if it was a singular instance of this type of abuse then fine...but it is just one more example of a long pattern of abuse by Mignini. Not a few matters but dozens. Cases against lawyers, defendants, defendant families (both), reporter, newspapers, blogs, and now apparently book authors.

Sorry these cases are a clear example of one mans abusive tactics and using his position and the Italians money to fund his abuse against those he has a beef with.

In the Knox/Mellas matter Mignini wanted them to shut up about police hitting their daughter. And the price he put on that was the threat of them not seeing Amanda while she rotted in jail. He thought he could scare them away or into silence by doing what he did. He was wrong.

If the sub-case goes away it is more a sign that Italian courts are willing to be made a joke and are gladly willing to allow themselves to be made so by their prosecutors.

I would like to hear why the Italians continue to delay these sub cases. Sounds like abuse of process to me.

 

[charlatan]

That's not how she billed herself. So you now say she's not a journalist in this case which is what I've been saying. Show me when she first said that I'm not reporting just offering my opinions.

Now I say she's not a journalist? Can you point me to where I argued otherwise? Is anyone confusing her with Anderson Cooper, or the "Seattle Post Intelligencer (blog)" with the New York Times? I look at her the same way I look at Sfarzo -- as an opinionated commentator with some insights on the case. It's silly to try to draw some 'moral' equivalence between Dempsey and the pool of reporters (Vogt, Pisa, Follain, and so on) who are regularly called upon by large media outlets to provide objective coverage of developments in the case.

What exactly is the point of this masturbatory exercise? We know the media played a big part in the invention of Knox the sex-crazed killer. We also know who's been cranking out this crap for years. Is it verboten to name names?

 

[Bill Williams]

I asked because they did have an in court reporter named Stewarthome2000.

He didn't please some over there such as TM when he reported the washing machine wasn't warm just damp.

I always assumed that it was Peggy's brag that what she posted (meaning herself, Peggy) was based on daily reports from the courtroom. It's why she pulled rank on everyone....

I've never heard of Stewarthome2000.

 

[RandyN]

From everything I know, it seems clear the Kerchers do not want to hear from Amanda. They have not shown any interest in hearing from those of us who support her claim of innocence. Their peace of mind is out of our hands. I think we should respect their wishes by accepting that.

Agreed 100%.

Even the Kercher lawyer walked from the courtroom when he had the chance to hear what Amanda had to say. Unprofessional and sending the message of the Kerchers true wishes. Sadly they create their own additional pain. Their daughter is dead and frankly like most dead people they all become part of the past. People living out "full lives".. whatever that is ...don't make it past a generation or three as far as memory goes.

The Kerchers thanks to RG and the Italian police and justice system will suffer a life long pain ...an extra unnecessary pain above and beyond the regular torture of an unnatural death of a child...the baby child none the less.

 

[RandyN]

Now I say she's not a journalist? Can you point me to where I argued otherwise? Is anyone confusing her with Anderson Cooper, or the "Seattle Post Intelligencer (blog)" with the New York Times? I look at her the same way I look at Sfarzo -- as an opinionated commentator with some insights on the case. It's silly to try to draw some 'moral' equivalence between Dempsey and the pool of reporters (Vogt, Pisa, Follain, and so on) who are regularly called upon by large media outlets to provide objective coverage of developments in the case.

What exactly is the point of this masturbatory exercise? We know the media played a big part in the invention of Knox the sex-crazed killer. We also know who's been cranking out this crap for years. Is it verboten to name names?

Barbs, Andrea and Nick walk (naked) into a bar. Oh wait. Never mind.

Barbie was one of the worst with the sex stuff. Vogt was the intellectually dishonest liar, and Nick was their play toy...;-)

 

[acbytesla]

Well, starch won't give you 12 repeats at CSF1PO and the like, and come out looking like this.

However if Stefanoni actually dug something out of that 'shy striation' it may well have been starch and the sample contaminated at some point in the lab process. That electropherogram wasn't generated from a starch granule but it might have been a starch granule she put in the extractor which somewhere down the line was contaminated. It doesn't look like there's any actual sample in 36B, just background contamination she zoomed in on. Look at the second one down, forget the fuzzy noise line at the bottom, that's just 'cause you're zoomed up so close (look at the scale on the left!) just pretend it's flat and count the peaks. This is the opposite of the bra clasp which would look like a forest at this resolution, which the other samples do to a more limited extent, the extraneous peaks, stutter and whatnot down there. That's 'cuz in my view, and what the evidence suggests, there was no actual sample in 36B outside the contamination she picked up along the way somehow from trying to process LT DNA in a lab woefully unequipped for the task.

So while the results couldn't have been starch, it may have been starch (which wouldn't show up at all) she was testing!

I see your point about the e-gram however, it's clear that CD's and CV's point was that the the only organic material found in 36B Sample was organic material that resembles' starch. This is nitpicking over nuances in Candace's reporting

 

[acbytesla]

Perhaps but when this case against Curt and Edda was filed there was a method to Mignini madness. He needed to silence anyone talking about the police abuse matters. And let me remind at this time Lumumba was silenced by starving him with the closing of his bar for no legal reason at all!
Charging American citizens for something they related to a Brit reporter from their living room in USA but not charging the paper or the reporter is abusive corruption. And not too thinly veiled abuse either. And if it was a singular instance of this type of abuse then fine...but it is just one more example of a long pattern of abuse by Mignini. Not a few matters but dozens. Cases against lawyers, defendants, defendant families (both), reporter, newspapers, blogs, and now apparently book authors.

Sorry these cases are a clear example of one mans abusive tactics and using his position and the Italians money to fund his abuse against those he has a beef with.

In the Knox/Mellas matter Mignini wanted them to shut up about police hitting their daughter. And the price he put on that was the threat of them not seeing Amanda while she rotted in jail. He thought he could scare them away or into silence by doing what he did. He was wrong.

If the sub-case goes away it is more a sign that Italian courts are willing to be made a joke and are gladly willing to allow themselves to be made so by their prosecutors.

I would like to hear why the Italians continue to delay these sub cases. Sounds like abuse of process to me.

This is all absolutely true, Mignini certainly abuses his power. But it seems as if Mignini knows he will never be held accountable.

 

[Kaosium]

I see your point about the e-gram however, it's clear that CD's and CV's point was that the the only organic material found in 36B Sample was organic material that resembles' starch. This is nitpicking over nuances in Candace's reporting

Actually there's no evidence there was starch in the sample, C&V just said that it was on the knife. Being as there was starch on the knife I am guessing that if Stefanoni actually scraped something out of that striation it was starch.

But as to what I highlighted, I agree wholeheartedly.

 

[acbytesla]

Actually there's no evidence there was starch in the sample, C&V just said that it was on the knife. Being as there was starch on the knife I am guessing that if Stefanoni actually scraped something out of that striation it was starch.

But as to what I highlighted, I agree wholeheartedly.

That is reasonable. From what I can see, while not be 100 correct, the spirit of Candace Dempsey's report is accurate. Definitely not something that I think would make someone say that CD was deliberately misleading, which seems to be Grinder's point. Overall, when it comes to the facts of this case, CD has done a very good job, the same cannot be said about Vogt, Barbie and Follain.

It seems to me that Grinder always tries to make a point that he is 100% neutral and objective so he finds things to nitpick about the innocence perspective. Even though he is convinced of their innocence as well.

I think I am totally objective, but that doesn't mean I haven't made up my mind.

 

[Kaosium]

I'm not quite sure what you mean by "original statements".

I think he meant Amanda and Raffaele's original statements on the fifth, I just pointed out that it was Amanda who would then go on to testify in court that she was up at ~10:00 but Raffaele never gave anything more than the original statements which were hardly an opportunity to detail every little thing he did like Amanda did in court.

It was my understanding that Raffaele signed two statements that night, both of which were thrown out.

 

[Kaosium]

I think these two are in two different situations. Vogt spends a lot of time in Italy, her husband was born there and her kids have traveled and stayed in Italy for substantial periods of time. She knows which way the wind is blowing. She has to be careful and if things seem a bit slanted towards the prosecution case, it is probably less so than some of the Italian journalists.

Dempsey is a bit more free to state an opinion and has not hesitated to do so. I don't think this has hurt her career by doing so. I am not so sure I could say the same if Vogt had taken that route.

Barbie has not hesitated to worm herself in by taking the side of guilt and making friends and contacts in Italy as well as the UK. And now has a movie deal to go with her book. I can rely on Vogt to present the prosecution side of the case without too much embellishment. I think Dempsey is more knowledgeable about the case and she has researched it extensively. Barbie has picked up a bunch of factoids and rumors and strung them together with some speculation without too much trouble taken to double check the facts she has taken from various sources. Her personal reflections about the journalists and some of the principals in the case is probably the most valuable thing I can say about her writing.

Interesting perspectives, thank you for sharing them. I also find each of those reporting valuable, but not for the same reasons and certainly not to the same degree. Indeed all of the ones in Italy had to take into account things are different there--especially dealing with Mignini.

It had somehow escaped my mind when I originally responded that Vogt had linked the ridiculous 'wiki' murderofmeredithkercher.com.

Not. Cool.

 

[Kaosium]

That is reasonable. From what I can see, while not be 100 correct, the spirit of Candace Dempsey's report is accurate. Definitely not something that I think would make someone say that CD was deliberately misleading, which seems to be Grinder's point. Overall, when it comes to the facts of this case, CD has done a very good job, the same cannot be said about Vogt, Barbie and Follain.

It seems to me that Grinder always tries to make a point that he is 100% neutral and objective so he finds things to nitpick about the innocence perspective. Even though he is convinced of their innocence as well.

I think I am totally objective, but that doesn't mean I haven't made up my mind.

I understand what CD meant by that and I understand why Grinder was annoyed by it. How did Halides1 put it? Tempest in a teapot?

'Nuff said.

 

[acbytesla]

I understand what CD meant by that and I understand why Grinder was annoyed by it. How did Halides1 put it? Tempest in a teapot?

'Nuff said.

True.