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Continuation Part Six: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

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As for the populated areas, there are newspapers, officers and magistrates. Your expressions "Italian press" and "Italian Justice System" incorporate pretty all of what can be related to law administration, justice cases, information and truth, basically: the basic constitutional expressions of a democracy.
In fact, that's what you do. You deny any credibility at the grounds of the functioning of a country, of a human community, then you build everything you want on that foundation.
What kind of argument is this? You think because Italy is a democracy that everything functions well and it's above criticism? Sorry, but I seem to recall that the nazis came to power in a democracy.

From what I can see based on their performance in this case, the Italian press and in particular the Italian courts deserve our scorn. The Supreme Court is pathetic.
 
Ps. Interesting your comprising Italian press within a definition as "pact of slobbering hyenas". My guess is that may have read National Enquirer and Bild Zeitung, rather than La Repubblica or Il Corriere della Sera.
Or maybe you are a relative of Amanda.

Yes, that's right. I read the National Enquirer. "Halloween sex orgy murder". Oh. Wait. That only happens in Italy.
 
They love to waive around this concept that the defense observed the testing and nothing was objectionable. It's just not true. The defense has raised issues about the reliability, repeatability and documentation of the testing, and in addition have pointed out that the lab is neither certified for LCN nor operated consistent with LCN standards. What else should they have done? Unplug the machine?


Yes well they always forget to answer the question about who exactly was present to oversee the testing done by Stefanoni from Nov 2 until AK and RS were allowed to meet and speak with and or hire attorneys. I seem to recall that Stefanoni was testing this knife while the defendants were being held in solitary and were denied access to lawyers and so it seems impossible to conclude that nothing was objectionable.

Even though I think this is an illogical even stupid argument for the prosecutor or scientific police to make since watching a machine run can never be a substitute for free access to all data including EDF'S and work sheets that show how the process was carried out...for example was the sample split and concentrated and run 24, or 36, or 50 times?

I hear arguments from PGP that the double confirmatory test is not required in Italy since the testing can be viewed by a defense consultant. This is certainly false. The most basic scientific rule when investigating anything is confirmation by a repeatable test with the same results. Watching the test never removes this requirement. If the result is a one off then it can never be considered scientifically valid let alone proof of anything beyond all reasonable doubt. BTW putting one result in the copy machine never equals 2 tests ....I added that for Yummi/Mac certain argument tactic.
 
Bill you jeer Vogt and cheer Candace and they are both highly one-sided reporters.

Candace said the material found by Stefanoni on the knife was starch. I don't think that's true.

There is no doubt that the experienced rock climber was able to scale the window easily. The move he made where he coiled and then sprang upwards is not one that could easily be natural. I've never thought anyone entered that way but rather the rock was thrown to see if anyone was home.

Grinder - for the record. I have NOT "jeered" Vogt. I have said she's a PR agent for the prosecution.

I have not "cheered" Dempsey. I have said that she has always supplemented her book with actual answers to questions - things that would have normally have been footnotes. She's never to my knowledge tried to hide why she wrote something she wrote....

Once again, why this "sporting" metaphor.... why is it that when someone finds something as factual, you claim they are not being "neutral"?
 
Machiavelli said:
I am not exactly refusing to post their content. I refuse to post them entirely as documents, because I don't have permission to do that.
Amanda Knox can release it: she is a party involved.

I don't understand this. Please explain if you would the law on this. Are we not talking about official court documents? Why do you need a party to the proceedings to consent to their release? Maybe I am off base and have missed part of the conversation. If so, apologies.

Oh. If they are not public records, then how do you have them?

Thanks in advance.
LOL!!!! Good one. I am not sure why Machiavelli wants to embarrass himself like this.
 
Machiavelli said:
I am not exactly refusing to post their content. I refuse to post them entirely as documents, because I don't have permission to do that.
Amanda Knox can release it: she is a party involved.

And why do you still believe Mignini put forward a Satanic-rite or a ritual-murder scenario?
Why don't you acknowledge the scenario he put forward is totally different?
You said in an earlier post.....

Machiavelli said:
and also given that juge Micheli himself points out that Mignini "dropped" all these themes in his replies after his closing arguments, the possibilities left are that the word "rito" originates from Maresca or Pacelli, or that it was just a mistake from the press source.

How can I acknowledge that the scenario is totally different when you all but admit the Micheli chastised Mignini for advancing it?

You need to get your story straight.... I do not know why you wish to embarrass yourself over this.
 
Bill you jeer Vogt and cheer Candace and they are both highly one-sided reporters.

Candace said the material found by Stefanoni on the knife was starch. I don't think that's true. There is no doubt that the experienced rock climber was able to scale the window easily. The move he made where he coiled and then sprang upwards is not one that could easily be natural. I've never thought anyone entered that way but rather the rock was thrown to see if anyone was home.


Stefanoni had nothing to do with the starch. This starch was discovered on the knife blade by C & V. Not sure if it was even marked with id marker. A enlarged photo of the actual starch grain was produced. I think the relevance was to show that the police and prosecutors contention that the knife was chosen because it was shiny and clean and plus RS apartment smelled of bleach and so Finsi put 2 and 3 together and got 10. The starch shows that no cleaning took place and/or these two must be sick puppies to kill someone and then bring the same knife home and use it for preparing dinner. Not sure what if anything Stefanoni ever said about starch. Its presence while inconclusive seems to indicate the knife was not well cleaned just as actually viewing the knife shows...the dark area near the handle which was untested IIRC proves the knife was not well cleaned at all. The starch upholds this idea. Meanwhile the prosecution and Stefanoni has failed completely to prove how the blood was removed but not the DNA...meanwhile presenting the bleach cleaning idea and yet we see starch. Oh and we find Knox DNA on the handle which also should contain volumes of MK DNA especially in the tiny grippy places designed into said handle.

So they can clean DNA selectively from the murder room. They can remove all blood and DNA except for Knox from the handle (sure she could touch it after cleaning) and yet somehow starch and DNA of the victim they can not remove. Even though we are certain that if cleaned in bleach so as to remove all blood as they contend this then would destroy the DNA and so their conclusions are impossible. Not probable, not likely, not even remotely possible....in short a crazy impossible idea that the prosecution is still selling as wholly valid and easily provable and yet...from the defense...we hear crickets... these two are going to be sent back to jail.

No one even tries to stop the crazy. We are not opening the handle once again but we are testing something called 36 i sample which Stefanoni missed along with the starch. How is it we can prove a sample of 5 - 10 picograms size and frankly the stats tell us this measurement is so small the amount could actually be 0 pico grams, and yet somehow we now have a 125 picogram size sample which is still considered too small IIRC. that seems to have appeared out of no where. Oddly at the first hearing Stefanoni lied that the size was a couple hundred picograms. Then later she lied that she forgot her notes about the size and darnit she also forgot this vital sample size from accurate memory..the ONE that proved the whole case was only 5 picograms or 10 maybe or zero maybe.

A knife that doesnt fit for so many reasons already has to once again be tinkered with to see if the genie pops out this time? Is this the way they will save face? This i sample is inclusive so not guilty but if it is later developed a test that can ID a zero picogram size sample then we may reopen the case. For now we can never know. Which is just so much more BS from a court and country that majors in BS. Dont worry they can prove that by citing rule 32.105 backed up by 890.001...... plus she doesn't float!
 
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I am not exactly refusing to post their content. I refuse to post them entirely as documents, because I don't have permission to do that.
Amanda Knox can release it: she is a party involved.


Unfortunately ole stinky pants Magillacutty is not a member of this forum. See I can call her whatever name I wish since she is not a member...

Anyway since she certainly probably has better things to do ...unlike all of us apparently...I dont expect we will be getting a court transcript. I am sure Charlie has access to the file, perhaps he will provide it. OTOH I think Mignini said it in court and I think it is up to you to prove that he did not. Start with Martini (Migninis lunch pal) and then so on to Michaeli and Massei until you get to the point when Mignini is not involved anymore...so in other words up to today at least.

Im waiting.

ETA I deliberately misspelled the judges names to throw the Italian Internet police off my track.
 
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Of course. When you are in Alto Adige (where my mother is from) you can speak with the mountains. When they answer then you maybe trust the source.
As for the populated areas, there are newspapers, officers and magistrates. Your expressions "Italian press" and "Italian Justice System" incorporate pretty all of what can be related to law administration, justice cases, information and truth, basically: the basic constitutional expressions of a democracy.
In fact, that's what you do. You deny any credibility at the grounds of the functioning of a country, of a human community, then you build everything you want on that foundation.

Ps. Interesting your comprising Italian press within a definition as "pact of slobbering hyenas". My guess is that may have read National Enquirer and Bild Zeitung, rather than La Repubblica or Il Corriere della Sera.
Or maybe you are a relative of Amanda.

Democracy indeed, but a very sick one. Regarding the Italian press, there's only one thing you need to remember: Italy ranks as the worst western european country in the freedom of the press index, and 58th worldwide.
 
It seems like there are various perhaps overlapping concepts when the appropriateness of a sample for testing is being discussed.

The absolute mass
Based on what I understood from the C & V report the mass is determined by multiplying the mass concentration with the total mass of material analyzed.

The mass concentration
As I recall this is measured in micrograms per microliter.

RFU
I looked this up on Wikipedia. It seems like a way of determining how much DNA is in the sample by using molecules that glow under ultraviolet light when they are attached to the DNA to be tested. The more glowing the more DNA. It seems like the RFU measurement is closely related to the mass concentration that was mentioned in the C & V report but I haven't seen a way to convert between the measurements if it is even possible.

I am sure that some of the above isn't correct. I was hoping that somebody might correct what I have said and perhaps expand on it a bit.
 
Coil+Springin' ain't natural for a basketball player?

There is no doubt that the experienced rock climber was able to scale the window easily. The move he made where he coiled and then sprang upwards is not one that could easily be natural. I've never thought anyone entered that way but rather the rock was thrown to see if anyone was home.


Hey grinder,
Ain't it pretty common for dudes playin' basketball all the time to be able to coil and then spring upwards in a split second?


I gotta say that it seems that ol' Rudy Guede was a natural,
for this ol' white boy, me, RW, who used to play a bitta ball too when I was a kid at Venice High School, was NEVER good enough to have had a nickname...

Nina Burliegh said:
Rudy played basketball at the Piazza Grimana basketball court right across the street from 7 via Della Pergola, where he was known to all of the other basketball players, but none knew his real name. Some called him, Body Roga, after the Serbian basketball star, Deja Bodiroga, but most called him The Baron, because they found it difficult to say the name Byron. Guede styled himself after NBA star, Byron Scott.


Grinder,
Why do I feel that it was pretty easy for Guede-o to coil+spring upwards when no 1 came to investigate the sound that an 8 pound rock made when thrown thru Filomena's window on a chilly, windy November holiday night?
:confused:
 
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More on Rudy...

Hey Grinder,
I've read here on The JREF that you do not read books on this brutal murder case we discuss,
but I feel that sometimes you just do not get the whole picture regarding ol' Rudy Guede,
so here's a bitta info for you and other interested folks:
Nina Burliegh said:
On October 13, the law offices of Paolo Brocchi on via Del Roscetti in Perugia, was broken into from the back yard. The alarm had been disabled and then a window broken with a rock to allow thieves entry. The perpetrator turned up the heat so that the office was stifling. They removed the shards of broken glass from the window, carried them into another room, and arranged them neatly on a desk. They drank a Fanta soft drink from the refrigerator, 3 coats were strewn on the floor. Stolen from the office were a laptop computer, cell phones, USB sticks, and a printer.

On October 23, Maria Mandu Diaz, who lived next door to Rudy, was attending Vendemmia, the grape harvest festival, when police arrived to inform her that her home in Perugia had been badly damaged by fire and her cat had been killed in the blaze. Thieves entered the home through window and started the fire on the 3rd floor by throwing a scarf over a lamp. They cooked a meal and tossed food all around the kitchen. They left the stove on and the refrigerator open. A fireman commented to her: “Loro hanno gozzovigliato,” they feasted here.

The cat had died as a result of the thieves leaving the pantry door open and closing off his retreat.

Ms. Mandu-Diaz also had her jewel box looted. She was most distressed by the loss of her mother’s gold watch which was irreplaceable.

Ms. Mandu-Diaz knew Rudy casually because when walking her dog, Rudy was often outside his apartment, trying to get a cell signal. She noted he was friendly and petted her dog.

Back in Milan on October 27, Maria Del Prato walked into her office in her nursery school to find a young black man unhooking the cable to her computer in order to plug it into his laptop. This was Rudy Guede and Ms. Del Prato said he was very relaxed. He advised her not to worry. He hadn’t taken anything.

Ms. Del Prato immediately called the police to whom Rudy gave a story about being told he could purchase lodging there for fifty euro. The police went through his back pack and found, along with a large kitchen knife he’d taken from the nursery school kitchen, a laptop and cell phone and a woman’s gold watch. The laptop was identified as belonging to the law firm of Paolo Brocchi that was recently burglarized. Rudy told police he’d bought the laptop from a man at the Milan train station.

The Milan police wanted to hold Rudy but the prosecutor said he had more important cases and that Rudy was Perugia’s problem. They sent him back to Perugia.

On Monday morning, Rudy presented himself at the law offices of Paolo Brocchi to apologize for having their laptop. Once again he told the story about the man at the Milan train station.

On October 31st, Rudy dressed as a vampire and went dancing with the young women who lived downstairs from him. If anyone saw him with Meredith Kercher that night, as he maintains, they have yet to come forward. In 24 hours Meredith Kercher would be dead, Rudy’s DNA in her body and his bloody handprint on her pillow.


Ya know,
when I re-read this, I found it interesting that the cops do not state that Guede-o had any cash on him when searched in the Milan nursery school. I guess he spent all the cash he had on him to pay that 50 Euro fee to spend the night in a cozy nursery school instead of just heading over to his Aunt's pad.
Right...

Hey Grinder,
I thought that we had already agreed that you too believe that ol' Rudy did indeed climb up+break into the lawyers office,
which was on the 2nd floor if I recall correctly. Right?
Hmmm, B+E on the 2nd floor of a building,
esh, the dude musta been a natural at coilin'+springin', in my surfer opinion!
:D

Why don'tcha think that Guede-o woulda done the same at Miss Kercher's flat?
Because he knew the dudes downstairs, like Massei wrote?
 
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I've always wondered about that cell phone Rudy Guede had on him when he was busted inside the Milan nursery school.

Was it his?
I, nor you went to any of the original court trials, correct?
Frank Sfarzo did.

And I've been diggin' thru his old website, Perugia Shock.
He reports this:
Today we have to go back to October 15, when Rudy was found in a Milan kindergarten. On that occasion, he had a cellphone and a laptop with him. What is odd is that these possessions of his had been stolen earlier from a law firm in Perugia. The lawyers had reported the theft to the police and the police discovered that the thief, whoever he was, had entered through a window 4 meters from the ground, so similar to the one at Meredith's place.


Hmmmm,
it appears that FS has got the date wrong,(*)
BUT was reporting that Guede had the cell phone too,
not just the laptop, that was stolen from The Lawyers Office break-in.

Anybody have any other info on that cell phone?


(*):http://masseireport.wordpress.com/contents/rudy-hermann-guede/
 
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I've always wondered about that cell phone Rudy Guede had on him when he was busted inside the Milan nursery school.

Was it his?
I, nor you went to any of the original court trials, correct?
Frank Sfarzo did.

And I've been diggin' thru his old website, Perugia Shock.
He reports this:



Hmmmm,
it appears that FS has got the date wrong,(*)
BUT was reporting that Guede had the cell phone too,
not just the laptop, that was stolen from The Lawyers Office break-in.

Anybody have any other info on that cell phone?


(*):http://masseireport.wordpress.com/contents/rudy-hermann-guede/

The lawyers testified in the first trial, their testimony is on the web. That phone was stolen from them.
 
http://www.ilsecoloxix.it/p/italia/2013/10/10/AQK2Kid-omicidio_meredith_traccia.shtml

Google Translation:
Florence - started today is the work of the police of the Ris of Rome, flanked by the consultants of the parties, on the trail of DNA found on the knife seized at the home of Raffaele Sollecito and not yet examined. The survey, which began in the afternoon and, in all likelihood, will continue tomorrow, has been ordered by the Court of Assizes of Appeal of Florence is ongoing in the trial for the murder of Meredith Kercher: defendants Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito .

During the appeal process the track now the subject of expertise had not been examined because it was deemed insufficient in number.

Today's work, based on what is learned, would have led to the identification of a small amount of genetic material and experts they would be trying to amplify their own to ascertain whether or not examinable. At the moment there would still be possible even determine if they are human or plant.
 
Democracy indeed, but a very sick one. Regarding the Italian press, there's only one thing you need to remember: Italy ranks as the worst western european country in the freedom of the press index, and 58th worldwide.

I had already noted that your comments about Italian democracy are specious.
The US was behind Italy as for freedom expression in years around 2007.
 
Quoting Flipp on IIP:
Some rumors on twitter saying that the RIS found Amanda's DNA on the sample 36I. No official confirmation yet.

Latest information from ANSA is that the DNA is human and the Carabinieri are trying to identify the profile.
http://ansa.it/web/notizie/rubriche...zabile-Dna-coltello-omicidio-Mez_9445217.html

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Sergio Casagrande ‏@essecia 2m
BREAKING #MeredithKercher The new expert on the knife that would kill Meredith confirms traces of DNA linked to #Amanda Knox
 
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I had already noted that your comments about Italian democracy are specious.
The US was behind Italy as for freedom expression in years around 2007.

In all seriousness, Machiavelli, this case doesn't have anything to do with Italy as a "democracy." Italy is a democracy, everyone knows that.

And, yes, the courts and law enforcement to some extent derive their powers from this democracy, presumably from some constitutional source. Although, I would add, that in terms of actual function, it is difficult to imagine two less democratic institutions than courts and law enforcement--the same is true everywhere. Courts and police, may operate within a democracy but are far from democratic, themselves.

Anyway, the fact that a democracy might authorize the operation of courts and law enforcement does not mean that all of the actions of the courts and law enforcement are rendered proper or incontestable, or even a necessary function of the democracy.

Just one example. In this case, I believe that we have Italian law, perhaps the constitution, that says that defendants are entitled to a fair jury trial. Moreover, international law demands a fair trial: this is Italy's obligation under the ECHR. Yet, we have a court--the supreme court no less--that has now said that the results of a summary trial for one person (Guede) must be used in the trial of different people (Knox and Sollecito) to disprove their alternate theory of the crime, i.e., that Guede was the lone rapist and murderer. Thus, this supreme court has plainly stripped Knox and Sollecito of their right to jury trial on this issue, by substituting an effectively uncontested judgment from a separate summary proceeding, and thus, deprived Knox and Sollecito of their right to notice, to effective counsel, to put on and cross-examine witnesses, and to appeal.

This is obvious misconduct, and it is not immune from criticism simply because Italy is a democracy. In fact, to the contrary, it should be the subject of great criticism, because the supreme court has violated Italy's constitutional promises and international commitments in an absurdly outcome-oriented, Stalinist manner.

To stay silent in the face of such outrage, and worse, to be a collaborator, like you, is pitiful. So, you should view us as Italy's friends, because we are pointing out the abridgements of your own rights.
 
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Quoting Flipp on IIP:


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Sergio Casagrande ‏@essecia 2m
BREAKING #MeredithKercher The new expert on the knife that would kill Meredith confirms traces of DNA linked to #Amanda Knox

So Amanda stabbed herself?

Or, perhaps it is the case that this knife was never washed with bleach. I mean, how could this knife have so much DNA and starch all over it?
 
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