Continuation Part Six: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[Machiavelli]

"Admission" of what? That I don't like Italy? That's not true. Some things about Italy are very nice. For example, Alto Adige.

Now, if you think that I believe that the Italian press has acted like a pact of slobbering hyenas, and the Italian Justice system has engaged in gross misconduct and acts of sheer stupidity and perversion to railroad two innocent people, then you are right. You're also right that I "can build everything" on that foundation--funny how that works.

Of course. When you are in Alto Adige (where my mother is from) you can speak with the mountains. When they answer then you maybe trust the source.
As for the populated areas, there are newspapers, officers and magistrates. Your expressions "Italian press" and "Italian Justice System" incorporate pretty all of what can be related to law administration, justice cases, information and truth, basically: the basic constitutional expressions of a democracy.
In fact, that's what you do. You deny any credibility at the grounds of the functioning of a country, of a human community, then you build everything you want on that foundation.

Ps. Interesting your comprising Italian press within a definition as "pact of slobbering hyenas". My guess is that may have read National Enquirer and Bild Zeitung, rather than La Repubblica or Il Corriere della Sera.
Or maybe you are a relative of Amanda.

 

[Grinder]

Why didn't Mignini correct the record back in 2008 or 2009?

Why didn't he go after the leakers of photos and other inside information? Why only Lalli?

Why did he waited 6 years to make public the facts about the murder not being satanic related?

Billy's point is right on target. Why isn't he required to prove there was no mention of satanic rite?

 

[Grinder]

Bill W you forgot to comment on this:

Do you think the copy below is neutral?

Amanda Knox’s fate may turn on a DNA speck found on a plain old kitchen knife. In the first day of her retrial in Florence, Italy, the news was unrelentingly dreary for the defense, leading me to dub Judge Alessandro Nencini “Dr. No.” He said yes to DNA testing on the knife but wasn’t interested in DNA testing on semen most likely belonging to convicted murderer Rudy Guede on a pillow found under the victim’s body. In fact, Nencini denied 15 of 17 defense requests. Worst of all, he wasn’t interested in summoning Rudy to finally explain why everything in the murder room points only to him.

I fear we’ll see the rejected kitchen knife, wrapped with a bright red ribbon, brought back to court under melodramatic armed guard. Too large to fit victim Meredith Kercher’s wounds, it doesn’t match a bloody imprint on the victim’s bed. In the last trial, a speck the police claimed was the victim’s DNA turned out to be starch. Independent experts won’t test the knife this time; the judge handed that task off to the carabinieri ris. (Update: Filippo Barni and Andrea Berti). I have my fingers crossed for fairness.

Is it true that the DNA turned out to be starch? I think C&V said the DNA found wasn't done with proper protocols and therefore couldn't be considered. Perhaps I have forgotten that they said the substance was starch. Is the "new" substance they found also starch?

 

[Bill Williams]

Bill W you forgot to comment on this:

Do you think the copy below is neutral?

Amanda Knox’s fate may turn on a DNA speck found on a plain old kitchen knife. In the first day of her retrial in Florence, Italy, the news was unrelentingly dreary for the defense, leading me to dub Judge Alessandro Nencini “Dr. No.” He said yes to DNA testing on the knife but wasn’t interested in DNA testing on semen most likely belonging to convicted murderer Rudy Guede on a pillow found under the victim’s body. In fact, Nencini denied 15 of 17 defense requests. Worst of all, he wasn’t interested in summoning Rudy to finally explain why everything in the murder room points only to him.

I fear we’ll see the rejected kitchen knife, wrapped with a bright red ribbon, brought back to court under melodramatic armed guard. Too large to fit victim Meredith Kercher’s wounds, it doesn’t match a bloody imprint on the victim’s bed. In the last trial, a speck the police claimed was the victim’s DNA turned out to be starch. Independent experts won’t test the knife this time; the judge handed that task off to the carabinieri ris. (Update: Filippo Barni and Andrea Berti). I have my fingers crossed for fairness.

Is it true that the DNA turned out to be starch? I think C&V said the DNA found wasn't done with proper protocols and therefore couldn't be considered. Perhaps I have forgotten that they said the substance was starch. Is the "new" substance they found also starch?

Apologies.

Why would someone strive for "neutrality" when then have an opportunity to speak the truth?

Take the Ten Commandments for instance. Do "Thou shalt not steal" or "Thou shalt not kill" strive for a more neutral rendering?

Is it "neutral" to refuse to test the putative semen stain? There's a whole lot of stuff one needs to consider before taking a position, really.

What's the "neutral" position between the climb in through Filomena's window being doable and impossible?

What's at stake for neutrality when the obvious is staring one right in the face?

 

[Machiavelli]

Why didn't Mignini correct the record back in 2008 or 2009?

Why didn't he go after the leakers of photos and other inside information? Why only Lalli?

Why did he waited 6 years to make public the facts about the murder not being satanic related?

Billy's point is right on target. Why isn't he required to prove there was no mention of satanic rite?

... required to prove?

(correct the "record"? .. waited to make public ?!)

Why not?
Maybe because the world is not ruled by the Daily Mirror...?

 

[Machiavelli]

Machiavelli;how about a few court documents that proves that when Mignini was addressing judge Micheli's court at the end of Rudy trial making his case that Meredith's murder was a three way act and there was a mountain of evidence of Amanda and Raffaele's guilt,some of us,wrongly in your opinion,think that Mignini used a satanic rite as a motive for Meredith's murder in this address to the court
I am sure you will agree at this critical point in the appeal proceedings it would be very wrong to leave the allegation hanging in the air that Mignini is a liar,and you will produce the documents to prove exactly what Mignini did say
Thanks in advance

I can produce quotes.
I don't publish entire trial documents in their original form.

 

[Bill Williams]

Why didn't Mignini correct the record back in 2008 or 2009?

Why didn't he go after the leakers of photos and other inside information? Why only Lalli?

Why did he waited 6 years to make public the facts about the murder not being satanic related?

Billy's point is right on target. Why isn't he required to prove there was no mention of satanic rite?

... required to prove?

(correct the "record"? .. waited to make public ?!)

Why not?
Maybe because the world is not ruled by the Daily Mirror...?

Machiavelli - you've forced desperate measures on me.... and I hate you for it!

I am now required to take Grinder's side on something! Thou dost vex me, and thou dost vex me on purpose!

Why didn't Mignini clear the air about this in 2008? Why didn't he just admit that he'd changed his mind once he got other evidence?

MAYBE BECAUSE HE NEITHER HAD EVIDENCE TO PROPOSE A SATANIC RITE TO BEGIN WITH, MUCH LESS ANY EVIDENCE TO CHANGE IT TO ANY OTHER MOTIVE!

 

[Grinder]

Apologies.

Why would someone strive for "neutrality" when then have an opportunity to speak the truth?

Take the Ten Commandments for instance. Do "Thou shalt not steal" or "Thou shalt not kill" strive for a more neutral rendering?

Is it "neutral" to refuse to test the putative semen stain? There's a whole lot of stuff one needs to consider before taking a position, really.

What's the "neutral" position between the climb in through Filomena's window being doable and impossible?

What's at stake for neutrality when the obvious is staring one right in the face?

Was the material found on the knife starch? Some people think testing the "semen" stain is counterproductive. I'm not one of them but if a writer agrees does that make them wrong and a pr person for Mignini?

I'm not convinced at all that having a rock climber spring up to the window that now has a handy grill on it proof that Rudy could have easily made the climb. I surely think it is possible but not a certainty. Does that make me a spokesperson for Mignini?

The writer of the piece I quoted is just as much on one side as Vogt is on the other. I cheer neither.

 

[Bill Williams]

I can produce quotes.
I don't publish entire trial documents in their original form.

If one claims to have documents and then one refuses to publish them to prove a point, this is sign of someone with no point to prove.

Are you not embarrassed by these sorts of posts? You desperately need to have dinner with me, mate. I'm serious. I understand your caution, believe me I do. But we need to talk....

 

[Grinder]

Machiavelli - you've forced desperate measures on me.... and I hate you for it!

I am now required to take Grinder's side on something! Thou dost vex me, and thou dost vex me on purpose!

Why didn't Mignini clear the air about this in 2008? Why didn't he just admit that he'd changed his mind once he got other evidence?

MAYBE BECAUSE HE NEITHER HAD EVIDENCE TO PROPOSE A SATANIC RITE TO BEGIN WITH, MUCH LESS ANY EVIDENCE TO CHANGE IT TO ANY OTHER MOTIVE!

Bill, I'm saying that he could have denied ever saying it and chided those in the PLE for giving it to the press. He could have charged the british tab writers with defamation back then.

 

[Bill Williams]

Was the material found on the knife starch? Some people think testing the "semen" stain is counterproductive. I'm not one of them but if a writer agrees does that make them wrong and a pr person for Mignini?

I'm not convinced at all that having a rock climber spring up to the window that now has a handy grill on it proof that Rudy could have easily made the climb. I surely think it is possible but not a certainty. Does that make me a spokesperson for Mignini?

The writer of the piece I quoted is just as much on one side as Vogt is on the other. I cheer neither.

Who's cheering? If that Channel 5 demonstration doesn't turn your crank, I'm not sure there's anything I can say. Your mileage varies.

What's this business of turning the conversation to "cheering" or "neutrality"? No wonder we don't "get" each other, Grinder.

 

[Bill Williams]

Bill, I'm saying that he could have denied ever saying it and chided those in the PLE for giving it to the press. He could have charged the british tab writers with defamation back then.

All true.

My addition to this is: why is this even an issue in 2013? Why is Mignini writing letters to the editor about it, and why is Machiavelli arguing with obscure people (you and me) on equally obscure websites (this one) about it? And if Mach 1 really DOES'T have a transcript which proves his side, why doesn't he make a PDF and upload it? He could very well embarrass the both of us!

Why don't they just leave it alone?

 

[Machiavelli]

If one claims to have documents and then one refuses to publish them to prove a point, this is sign of someone with no point to prove.

Are you not embarrassed by these sorts of posts? You desperately need to have dinner with me, mate. I'm serious. I understand your caution, believe me I do. But we need to talk....

I am not exactly refusing to post their content. I refuse to post them entirely as documents, because I don't have permission to do that.
Amanda Knox can release it: she is a party involved.

 

[Machiavelli]

All true.

My addition to this is: why is this even an issue in 2013? Why is Mignini writing letters to the editor about it, and why is Machiavelli arguing with obscure people (you and me) on equally obscure websites (this one) about it? And if Mach 1 really DOES'T have a transcript which proves his side, why doesn't he make a PDF and upload it? He could very well embarrass the both of us!

Why don't they just leave it alone?

And why do you still believe Mignini put forward a Satanic-rite or a ritual-murder scenario?
Why don't you acknowledge the scenario he put forward is totally different?

 

[Machiavelli]

... but I think you even have an OCR of the argument Mignini and Comodi read in court, probably on IIP (maybe quoted by Katody); it's not a secret speech.

 

[billyryan]

I can produce quotes.
I don't publish entire trial documents in their original form.

If evidence is produced at some stage in the future that Mignini did claim in front of judge Micheli in September in 2008 that Rudy Guede Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito murdered Meredith Kercher as part of a satanic rite,in light of the letter he (Mignini)wrote to an Italian newspaper,and you translated,will you accept that Mignini is a liar,

 

[moije2]

I am not exactly refusing to post their content. I refuse to post them entirely as documents, because I don't have permission to do that.
Amanda Knox can release it: she is a party involved.

I don't understand this. Please explain if you would the law on this. Are we not talking about official court documents? Why do you need a party to the proceedings to consent to their release? Maybe I am off base and have missed part of the conversation. If so, apologies.

Oh. If they are not public records, then how do you have them?

Thanks in advance.

 

[codyjuneau]

Bill, I'm saying that he could have denied ever saying it and chided those in the PLE for giving it to the press. He could have charged the british tab writers with defamation back then.

.
You are correct Grinder. But of course Migi was PROUD of his brilliant theory back then.

It appears he is not so proud of it anymore, that is at least some progress towards enlightenment.
.

 

[Grinder]

Who's cheering? If that Channel 5 demonstration doesn't turn your crank, I'm not sure there's anything I can say. Your mileage varies.

What's this business of turning the conversation to "cheering" or "neutrality"? No wonder we don't "get" each other, Grinder.

Bill you jeer Vogt and cheer Candace and they are both highly one-sided reporters.

Candace said the material found by Stefanoni on the knife was starch. I don't think that's true.

There is no doubt that the experienced rock climber was able to scale the window easily. The move he made where he coiled and then sprang upwards is not one that could easily be natural. I've never thought anyone entered that way but rather the rock was thrown to see if anyone was home.

 

[Grinder]

.
You are correct Grinder. But of course Migi was PROUD of his brilliant theory back then.

It appears he is not so proud of it anymore, that is at least some progress towards enlightenment.
.

Right Cody. I think it makes the point that he couldn't deny it at the time or he would have. He would have been outraged that the press was making him look like a loon.