Continuation Part Six: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[snook1]

Somehow, I've got a feeling we will hear soon from the RIS regarding the knife. Well, maybe not from them, but I'm hoping for leaks as it was suggested that they will know the results almost right away.

 

[Dan O.]

Blood on the trousers

As I said earlier, the visible blood stains on the trousers is inconclusive as to the trousers being removed early in the assault or later. What can be seen are some faint blood stains around the pockets on the left side, a possible stain on the inside near the button hole, some small staining near the knee, staining in patches down the back of the leg and a dark spot just in front of the seam near the cuff. Most of this is quite faint and except for the last spot probably made with diluted blood.

If the trousers were removed prior to the assault, these stains would have to be accounted for by footsteps and searching the pockets. For removal after the assault, this is someone with traces of diluted blood on their hands and probably come from moving Meredith's body before undressing her. I think we can be conclusive that they were not removed in the time period between the stabbing and the cleanup in the bathroom.

 

[Diocletus]

Well, it's possible

But I can only speak about the few "foreign" things I was offerend and tasted, which I did appreciate. When I was in Ma'aloula in Sirya I did appreciate the wine produced by the monks. When in Spain I like to drink Spanish wine. I can't say they are all sub-standard. However, we all know that most wines of the wolrd are sub-standard.
I live in Emilia-Romagna but I don't like very much most wines from Emilia-Romagna (they grow Sangiovese and Cabernet mostly; Pignoletto here is better imho); I was born in Padova (albeit never lived there) and right where I was born they produce one of my favourites, the Raboso delle Corti Benedettine: I guess they don't drink something like that in many other places around the world.

Italians are famous for their whines.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

Ms. Vogt's latest

Andrea Vogt wrote, "If, on the other hand, the DNA results are inconclusive, the forensic evidence could be interpreted as weakened and there is more likelihood of acquittal, partial acquittal or conviction on lesser charges, such as omicidio colposo (manslaughter), options that remain open to the court. The presiding judge in the case has made it clear he believes there is plenty of material already deposited in the court files (forensic reports, consultants’ analysis, debate and counter debate, transcripts, etc) for a fully informed and reasoned decision."

The court has so far refused most of the defense requests. If the knife has unknown DNA, how could the court convict of anything? Exactly what changed between 2007 and 2011 in DNA profiling that gave Dr. Novelli reason to say that he could test for even smaller amounts of DNA? How does new testing (even if we grant for the sake of argument that advances were made) circumvent the problems in the way that the knife was previously collected and tested, both of which were done in ways that were dubious even by standards adopted for non-LT DNA. Besides not pondering question like these, nothing in Andrea's article even gives a hint that much forensic information has still not been released. This article is not the worst I have seen from her, but it is written with a pro-prosecution bias IMO.

 

[christianahannah]

No; from no other country actually, only Italian ones.

It's not racism, wines are like schoolfriends, like fruits from your orchard; they have a taste like the minerals of the land, they are a taste of your home. You know who produced them, the people, the place, the climate that year.
And above all they are everyday things. You just don't do shopping far away....

What you have written was expressed very nicely and I imagine could apply to many more things in a culture than just wines.

 

[Bill Williams]

Andrea Vogt wrote, "If, on the other hand, the DNA results are inconclusive, the forensic evidence could be interpreted as weakened and there is more likelihood of acquittal, partial acquittal or conviction on lesser charges, such as omicidio colposo (manslaughter), options that remain open to the court. The presiding judge in the case has made it clear he believes there is plenty of material already deposited in the court files (forensic reports, consultants’ analysis, debate and counter debate, transcripts, etc) for a fully informed and reasoned decision."

The court has so far refused most of the defense requests. If the knife has unknown DNA, how could the court convict of anything? Exactly what changed between 2007 and 2011 in DNA profiling that gave Dr. Novelli reason to say that he could test for even smaller amounts of DNA? How does new testing (even if we grant for the sake of argument that advances were made) circumvent the problems in the way that the knife was previously collected and tested, both of which were done in ways that were dubious even by standards adopted for non-LT DNA. Besides not pondering question like these, nothing in Andrea's article even gives a hint that much forensic information has still not been released. This article is not the worst I have seen from her, but it is written with a pro-prosecution bias IMO.

This is what I mean about Vogt being a virtual press agent for the prosecution.

I suppose there's nothing inherently wrong with the prosecution having a press agent.

Yet, I'm scrambling to find the article I once read which says that the more sensitive the DNA test, the more important to have better anti-contamination protocols. One look at the video of Dec 18 from the Scientific police makes one wonder if they had any at all...

 

[Bill Williams]

Oh come now Mary, those Marriott checks should allow for an extensive European holiday. I won't let you have the tequila; there's nothing like the wine in Italy! My cousins make wine (in addition to tomato sauce, pasta, olive oil, and many other things) and there is nothing like the homemade version of these foods. We are from a more southern area than Machiavelli, so he may find "our" wares less appealing, but I honestly have never tasted such fabulous food and drink in my entire life than when I am over there. You can drink the Grappa -- that stuff will grow hair on your chest!

I'm sure we could find something to talk about, something we all could see eye-to-eye about. We might have to leave this case off limits for discussion though. We are all too certain our respective positions are correct.

If conspiracies on the haters side of things should be exposed.... the best information on Mary_H herself is that the "H" refers to Mary's maiden name, which she kept after she got married to..... are you sitting down.....

..... Mr. Marriott himself.

In the office in Seattle at Marriott Supertanker Central, she's referred affectionately as, "Marriott 2".

 

[christianahannah]

Because it is ominous!

I should probably understand what is meant by this but I really don't.

I thought the update was balanced and didn't see where it showed Vogt was acting as a PR agent for the prosecution.

 

[Diocletus]

Exactly what changed between 2007 and 2011 in DNA profiling that gave Dr. Novelli reason to say that he could test for even smaller amounts of DNA?

If you look closely at the Cassation opinion, you will see that the reason given for requiring the testing of the 125 picogram sample is that such testing is done in the field of embryology. They helpfully add that accuracy is important in embryology. What they don't address is any sort of safeguard or restriction for LCN testing, and my impression is that they don't understand the issues at all. They come across as not smart or thoughtful.

I can think of a lot of reasons why embryology testing standards would not/should not translate into what is used in forensic work and admissible in court.

They have a quite breezy way of addressing scientific evidence.

 

[Diocletus]

I also think the Knife blade electropherogram was generated off of Meredith's DNA, probably around 10 pgs. It's easy to find contamination if you go looking for it, you can profile it and everything and produce it in court and dare the defense to prove you wrong.

Yep. Maybe up to 25 picograms, I would say. So, somewhere in the realm of 2-4 cells.

 

[Diocletus]

(yes Bologna has a cult for bier too, domestically produced).

That's crazy. Usually, when I end up eating Bologna, it's because I have been drinking beer! (the results are not good)

Seriously, though, you folks need to relax on your cults. There's no telling how many people could be murdered by beer drinkers.

 

[Bill Williams]

I should probably understand what is meant by this but I really don't.

I thought the update was balanced and didn't see where it showed Vogt was acting as a PR agent for the prosecution.

Look for times when Andrea has actually said something favourable, really, to Amanda. Forget about Raffaele... I sometimes wonder if Raffaele really exists in Andrea's universe.

Take the bit about not finding anything pointing to Meredith on the knife. Andrea goes on - objective journalist that she is - to not only speculate about another acquittal, but also about a conviction on reduced charges....

Really? The knife that has been since Nov 6th, 2007, a pillar of the prosecution case gets thrown out and the best Vogt can do, as a neutral commentator, is include "conviction on reduced charges"?

That knife was tested by Stefanoni and we were told there was no possibility of contamination (why? Because acc. to Judge Massei Stefanoni would not lie) and if it is now thrown out - there is going to be no investigation against the cops as to how it has been allowed to be IN the case for so long?

The Kerchers deserve better. Justice deserves better. Raffaele and Amanda deserve better.

The former update from AV pointed to McCall's website as an important resource in this area. Really? It has claims on that website that were debunked even by Judge Massei, the original convicting judge.

For some reason there are some people who are simply going to advance the original prosecution case come hell or high water, regardless of what the courts say, and regardless of what experts in their fields (criminal profiling, DNA, etc.) say.

And they will fight a rear guard action for all they're worth (cf. Machiavelli 1 and 2) against the notion that Mr. Mignini once touted a Satanic rite theory of this crime.

That, I believe, is what they think of as Mr. Mignini's Achilles Heel. You see, they are defending Mr. Mignini not only from the embarrassment and possible criminal process to follow regarding his wrongful prosecution of Knox and Sollecito, but also the Spezi/Preston thing going all the way back to Narducci. Mignini himself has said his troubles started with the Narducci case.

Andrea Vogt could not be more unbalanced as a "neutral" blogger. To me her agenda is clear.

 

[billyryan]

Somehow, I've got a feeling we will hear soon from the RIS regarding the knife. Well, maybe not from them, but I'm hoping for leaks as it was suggested that they will know the results almost right away.

If the Carabinieri find nothing on the knife to test that information should be released very quickly,but should something be successfully planted on the knife while it was in safe keeping in Stefanoni's lab or else the sample collected by Conti & Vecchiotti prove testable it could take right up to the next appointed court date for anything to be released

 

[smkovalinksy]

Andrea Vogt wrote, "If, on the other hand, the DNA results are inconclusive, the forensic evidence could be interpreted as weakened and there is more likelihood of acquittal, partial acquittal or conviction on lesser charges, such as omicidio colposo (manslaughter), options that remain open to the court. The presiding judge in the case has made it clear he believes there is plenty of material already deposited in the court files (forensic reports, consultants’ analysis, debate and counter debate, transcripts, etc) for a fully informed and reasoned decision."

The court has so far refused most of the defense requests. If the knife has unknown DNA, how could the court convict of anything? Exactly what changed between 2007 and 2011 in DNA profiling that gave Dr. Novelli reason to say that he could test for even smaller amounts of DNA? How does new testing (even if we grant for the sake of argument that advances were made) circumvent the problems in the way that the knife was previously collected and tested, both of which were done in ways that were dubious even by standards adopted for non-LT DNA. Besides not pondering question like these, nothing in Andrea's article even gives a hint that much forensic information has still not been released. This article is not the worst I have seen from her, but it is written with a pro-prosecution bias IMO.

I was going to post this from Andrea Vogt and then saw your post.

I wonder if we will hear anything about the results before Nov. 6? And given all you list above, why do so many believe the knife test results will be "absolutely decisive" and make or break the ruling?

UPDATE OCT. 9, 2013
The new forensic testing of the knife ordered by Judge Alessandro Nencini at the start of Amanda Knox’s appeals trial in Florence is going ahead at the Caribinieri RIS laboratories in Rome. But how crucial will the results be to appeal outcome? If the DNA being tested matches the profile of either the victim Meredith Kercher or the other man already in jail for the murder, Rudy Guede, it is a very ominous sign for the defense. If more of Meredith’s DNA is found on the blade, it further confirms the prosecution’s assertion that the kitchen knife found in Sollecito’s flat was indeed the murder weapon. If Rudy Guede’s DNA is found on the blade, it confirms his story that he was stabbed in the palm by a knife-wielding attacker as he came out of the bathroom to see what all the fracas was about. Guede testified that the attacker said in Italian “Black man found, black man guilty,” before running out the door. He claims he found Meredith dying in her room and tried to save her, but, unable to stop the bleeding, eventually panicked and fled. Since Guede had never visited Sollecito’s flat, the prosecution would like argue that his DNA on the blade meant that either Knox or Sollecito brought the weapon back there after the murder and confrontation with Guede.

If, on the other hand, the DNA results are inconclusive, the forensic evidence could be interpreted as weakened and there is more likelihood of acquittal, partial acquittal or conviction on lesser charges, such as omicidio colposo (manslaughter), options that remain open to the court. The presiding judge in the case has made it clear he believes there is plenty of material already deposited in the court files (forensic reports, consultants’ analysis, debate and counter debate, transcripts, etc) for a fully informed and reasoned decision. How much weight is given to the new forensic results from the expanded testing of trace amounts of DNA on the knife remains an important hinge factor. The RIS in Rome will know the results very soon. But don’t expect any public debate until the results are presented before the court November 6.

http://thefreelancedesk.com/front_featured/amanda-knox-appeal-2/

 

[Grinder]

This is what I mean about Vogt being a virtual press agent for the prosecution.

I suppose there's nothing inherently wrong with the prosecution having a press agent.

Yet, I'm scrambling to find the article I once read which says that the more sensitive the DNA test, the more important to have better anti-contamination protocols. One look at the video of Dec 18 from the Scientific police makes one wonder if they had any at all...

Bill it is unnecessary for you to hunt down that article as everyone here knows that the smaller the amount of material available for testing the greater the need for stricter protocols for collecting, transporting, storing and testing. Special labs have been set up for LCN/touch DNA testing with positive pressure hoods to keep out environmental contamination.

If anybody doubts that LCN is easier to transfer they are not worth arguing with.

Do you think the copy below is neutral?

Amanda Knox’s fate may turn on a DNA speck found on a plain old kitchen knife. In the first day of her retrial in Florence, Italy, the news was unrelentingly dreary for the defense, leading me to dub Judge Alessandro Nencini “Dr. No.” He said yes to DNA testing on the knife but wasn’t interested in DNA testing on semen most likely belonging to convicted murderer Rudy Guede on a pillow found under the victim’s body. In fact, Nencini denied 15 of 17 defense requests. Worst of all, he wasn’t interested in summoning Rudy to finally explain why everything in the murder room points only to him.

I fear we’ll see the rejected kitchen knife, wrapped with a bright red ribbon, brought back to court under melodramatic armed guard. Too large to fit victim Meredith Kercher’s wounds, it doesn’t match a bloody imprint on the victim’s bed. In the last trial, a speck the police claimed was the victim’s DNA turned out to be starch. Independent experts won’t test the knife this time; the judge handed that task off to the carabinieri ris. (Update: Filippo Barni and Andrea Berti). I have my fingers crossed for fairness.

Is it true that the DNA turned out to be starch? I think C&V said the DNA found wasn't done with proper protocols and therefore couldn't be considered. Perhaps I have forgotten that they said the substance was starch. Is the "new" substance they found also starch?

 

[Chris_Halkides]

Bruce Budowle and low template number DNA analysis

If you look closely at the Cassation opinion, you will see that the reason given for requiring the testing of the 125 picogram sample is that such testing is done in the field of embryology. They helpfully add that accuracy is important in embryology. What they don't address is any sort of safeguard or restriction for LCN testing, and my impression is that they don't understand the issues at all. They come across as not smart or thoughtful.

I can think of a lot of reasons why embryology testing standards would not/should not translate into what is used in forensic work and admissible in court.

Former head of the FBI's DNA lab Bruce Budowle is comfortable with using LCN DNA profiling to identify victims of a disaster but not for criminal work beyond developing leads. "With increased sensitivity of detection there is a concomitant increased risk of contamination." IMO the CSC's comparison to embryology is no better than questionable, and they have totally failed to address the special problems of working in the low template region of DNA profiling.
ETA
Another quote from the same journal article, "7) Due to the enhanced sensitivity, secondary transfer cannot be ruled out as a possible explanation for LCN typing results."

Maybe Grinder is correct that people who don't understand the special contamination (or secondary) transfer concerns in the low template region are not worth arguing with, but the CSC just doesn't get it, either. They wrote, "...whereas the demonstration data that emerged from the technical advice was based on properly documented reporting activities carried out under the eyes of the consultants that had nothing to detect, in a clean laboratory environment, activities conducted according to methods tested..." Grinder has never claimed to be a DNA afficianado, but he clearly knows more than the CSC does.

 

[snook1]

If the Carabinieri find nothing on the knife to test that information should be released very quickly,but should something be successfully planted on the knife while it was in safe keeping in Stefanoni's lab or else the sample collected by Conti & Vecchiotti prove testable it could take right up to the next appointed court date for anything to be released

It would be quite difficult to plant something on the knife, beacuse C&V already gave us some info about 36I(along with numbers) and if anyone wants to do something with it, she/he should be extremely careful. I don't even know if that's possible, given that it is LCN DNA. Also, from what we've heard, the knife was in Vecchiotti's lab since the appeal. Hopefully, it was guarded enough.

I think that we'll know something by the end of October.

 

[Grinder]

It would be quite difficult to plant something on the knife, beacuse C&V already gave us some info about 36I(along with numbers) and if anyone wants to do something with it, she/he should be extremely careful. I don't even know if that's possible, given that it is LCN DNA. Also, from what we've heard, the knife was in Vecchiotti's lab since the appeal. Hopefully, it was guarded enough.

It would be even too much for the ILE to suddenly find full DNA on the knife. i don't we know that the knife was stored at V's lab or if it was only the new sample they found.

Since the tests have already most likely been done and the defense must be allowed to observe one would think we will get some idea pretty soon.

 

[snook1]

Grinder, I agree completely.

The testing started today at 2 p.m. Florence time. I guess it's finished already.

As to where the knife has been stored - from what I remember, during second hearing of the Florence trial, it was mentioned that the knife was in fact in Rome at Vecchiotti's lab since the appeal trial. But I guess, it would be nice to get some kind of confirmation (also if the C&V report stands).

 

[Diocletus]

They wrote, "...whereas the demonstration data that emerged from the technical advice was based on properly documented reporting activities carried out under the eyes of the consultants that had nothing to detect, in a clean laboratory environment, activities conducted according to methods tested..."

They love to waive around this concept that the defense observed the testing and nothing was objectionable. It's just not true. The defense has raised issues about the reliability, repeatability and documentation of the testing, and in addition have pointed out that the lab is neither certified for LCN nor operated consistent with LCN standards. What else should they have done? Unplug the machine?