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"Wait, there are US citizens who are NOT Mormon?!?"

ETA: Maybe she just jumped the gun. World domination wasn't supposed to start until NEXT year.
 
Janadele,

Please note, admitting the elders and the quorum of 12 made a mistake and that it's not the Church's business to interfere with the consensual activities of non-members is an acceptable response.

Saying "The LDS leadership made a mistake" is not a violation of LDS doctrine or dogma, or a threat to your belief structure. You yourself have dismissed quotes from LDS founders because the exact words in question were not deemed to be revelations from God. Your faith has a mechanism and a precedent for admitting errors by even the highest ranking members of the church.
 
You know, I would have sworn that post of mine that you're pretending to answer had a few more words when I originally wrote it. Let's have a little looky, shall we?



My goodness gracious! I wonder how that could have happened.

Anyway . . . no harm done, although now that it's all fixed up you might like to have another go at it.

On the positive side, it's clear how LDS members deal with the fraudulent basis of the BoA.
Do any other Mormons here have anything to add to Janadele's reply?
 
When, and in what context? Hearsay? Fabrication?

Janadele, suppose you address the idea that the "rules" you posted the link to apply to "members"? How does that give the CJCLDS license to impose their "rules" on non-members?

Why is what goes on among consenting adults in my demesne any more your business that what goes on among members in the fastness of your temples any of my business?

What is it about your "rules" that makes it so important to you to try and make sure that everyone must play by them, even when they are not playing with you, nor in your ambit?

Again I ask the question you have never answered: How can anything that happens among consenting adults in the privacy of my home affect you, in any way at all?
 
When, and in what context? Hearsay? Fabrication?

Do you believe in BY's Adam-God view? He outlined that one in Conference, speaking as the Prophet, but it's not doctrine of your church. Why not? Why don't you believe that Adam is God?


I really hate discussion via video, and that one is nearly half an hour long. Have no interest, thanks. Perhaps you'd care to highlight the high points for us? I'm betting you're going to have a hard time explaining how gay rights negatively impacts those of us who are straight, but feel free to try.
 

DO you have the slightest idea of the difference between "permitted" and "imposed"?

Despite the pretense of the misstated original premise of the video, I am not aware of anyone "imposing" marriage equality upon anyone else. Have you been ignoring my repeated formulation, "consenting adults, in private"?

Is the transcript on the video available, or is there a scholarly article on the subject? I have explained before about my distaste for assertion by video. I refuse to waste 20 minutes of my time listening to a diatribe based upon the lie that "gay marriage was imposed in Massachusetts"...

Thanks!
 
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What lovely bedfellows you have chosen.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MassResistance

Shall we discuss who is "imposing" whose will upon whom?
(Shall we discuss "biased propaganda"?)

Did you read about MassResistance opposing suicide-counseling programs because they are “put together by homosexual activists to normalize homosexuality”? Or how "gays" want to pass laws about "sex with animals"? No wonder the SPLC classifies MassResistance as a "hate group".

Did you see where MassResitance says that "no homosexuals died" during the Shoah?

Your choice of bedfellows affects all of society, as an organization claims the right to impose their hate-fueled lies upon everyone.

My choice of bedfellows affects...no one but me and mine.
 
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Amazing. Thank you for posting such a clear, direct link, to such an on-point answer.

Even given that "the Church" presumes to speak for "the Lord" in such detail, I still would not find it terribly objectionable (any more objectionable, say, than the SBC continuing to refuse ordination to women) if (and it's a big if) it were only applied to members--that is, if it were only applied to adults who freely and informedly consent to the "rules". Where you, and others like you, do err is when you arrogate to apply your superstitions, the "rules" of your 'god', to people who do not believe in your 'god'; people who did not consent; people who are not and have no desire to be part of your cult.

You, and others like you, and others not very much like you at all, have a right to worship as you see fit. You, and others like you, and others not very much like you at all, have no right to try to ensure that others live up to the standards of your superstitions.

What goes on among consenting adults, on my land, affects no-one but the adults consenting to participate. What goes on in your church should do the same. It is as wrong, as "disgusting and abhorrent" for you to pretend the right to enforce your "rules of behaviour" outside your church as it would be for me to pretend the right to enforce my standards of behaviour outside the confines of my chambers.

I would actually modify that sentiment a little, though I agree with it in principle. I believe that it is within one's rights to use religious principles as an individual in decisions regarding civil law. Back in the long ago, a great deal of the opposition to the war in Viet Nam, for example, came from religious people who based their desire for peace on religious conviction. It is telling, however, that in many cases, they were opposed by organized churches.

Church organizations have no business engaging in political action as organizations. Their special, protected status, both against taxation and against popular sentiment, is violated when they become lobbyists, even if their cause is just. If they wish to inflame their members to act as individuals, so be it. Within their domain they can do and say whatever they wish, good or bad.

If Janadele or anyone else wishes to vote against gay rights, to agitate, demonstrate or campaign, based on religious conviction, that's fine with me. But in return, this public debate in the public sector is no longer protected by the privacy of religion. There is no privilege. An individual in the civil sector cannot hide behind the walls of sanctimony. A bad idea is simply a bad idea. Hate is simply hate. Stupid is as stupid does. If you want to man the barricades, you cannot yell "oh poor me" when rocks start to fly.
 
When, and in what context? Hearsay? Fabrication?

If memory serves, the quotes in question were Brigham Young speaking about polygamy, which was Mormon doctrine at the time. Here is a representative example:

http://carm.org/brigham-young-quotes
"Now if any of you will deny the plurality of wives, and continue to do so, I promise that you will be damned," (Journal of Discourses, vol. 3, p. 266). Also, "The only men who become Gods, even the Sons of God, are those who enter into polygamy," (Journal of Discourses, vol. 11, p. 269).

Now, how about answering the original question?

The video link is not a valid response. I live in Massachusetts. I've lived here since before Marriage Equality was passed. The consequence of gay marriage in the state has been gays getting married. That's about it. Churches that opposed gay marriage don't perform them. No one is being arrested or jailed for voicing moral objections to gay marriage. Businesses hostile to homosexuals never really thrived in most the state to being with, as being the birthplace of the revolution and a major incubator for the abolitionists, the only bigots that get a pass in Massachusetts are folks who hate the New York Yankees baseball team. Gay marriage was not imposed, it was allowed.

You don't live here, you've never even BEEN here, so don't give me a link from a deranged hate group to try and tell me what life is like in the state I live in.

Besides, I thought you liked Willard Romney. MassResistance doesn't.
 
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"If memory serves" is not a basis for stating what another poster has supposedly "dismissed".

Perhaps you could provide context for the post by which you are aggrieved.

Further, perhaps you could provide some of the evidence to bolster the apparently inaccurate claims you have made*; evidence for which you have been asked patiently and repeatedly.

Thanks sincerely.

*(The "gaoled" claim might be a good place to start...)
 
Listen to the end of this video for many of the answers to questions which have been asked http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EZX55HUPFSU

Not this one.
desertgal said:
"Members who violate the Lord’s law of chastity or who influence others to do so are subject to Church discipline."

Right. Members. So why are you and your church trying to force non members into complying with this? Why do you pass judgment on what other people do when it has no bearing on you living your own life, worshiping as you please, and going about your own business?

Won't you, yourself, in your own words, answer a straightforward question at least once?
 
Listen to the end of this video for many of the answers to questions which have been asked http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EZX55HUPFSU

I was going to say that the segment of the video I listened to was disgusting and riddled with fallacies. As Slowvehicle said, there's a difference between "permitted" and "imposed." However, I should ask first. What arguments and beliefs expressed in the video do you feel are the most compelling?

The video has comments disabled, I'm thinking because the most common Youtube spam comment touched a nerve with them.
 
I made an attempt to get through that video, but I must confess I did not complete it.

It begins with the shocking revelation that X=X. No sooner did the Supreme Court rule that gay marriage must be allowed, than, believe it or not, gay people started getting married. Ugh!

It then goes on to proclaim the even more shocking news that X=X. No sooner did gay marriage become legal than institutions charged with teaching what's legal said so! Ick. They actually had the gall to educate their charges that what's all right is "all right." Wowee Zowee, what effrontery.

It then continues with the dreadful news that myths about marriage are being exposed as myths about marriage. Not only that, but other (unspoken) things were apparently uttered. That's only the tip of the iceberg, but icebergs are, I guess, too heavy to lift, and all yucky at the bottom, so you'll just have to take it on faith that someone else said something else too. Only the faithless and the gay would dare to question such courageous honesty in reporting. Yeah, you over there, I saw that.

And then, as icing on the cake (rainbow frosted I'm sure), apparently, an unidentified person told someone at some point on NPR somewhere that it might be legal to "teach homosexuality." Imagine that. Someone said something, and there's a chance it might be true! What incisive investigation. What an army of facts we are mustering against the legions of sin.

At about this point, fearing that any more devastating news about the repulsive gay agenda would weaken my system, I turned off the ghastly video.

Others may do better, and good luck to them. I think I'll just rant and rave about how the good old days are lost forever. Lock the door, put on a Liberace record and watch a rerun of Hollywood Squares or a Rock Hudson movie, and try to get back to normal.
 
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The guy in the video is beyond any possible hope of change. I know a few who would understand him and see him as admirable, and I feel sorry for them. They seem to enjoy their ignorance. I can't help. I've tried.

Somewhere along the line, he managed to get turned into a robotic fool. What he is stating is in large part just fact, but delivered with a twist to suit his prejudice and ingratiate him with his followers.

His mind views the real world as flawed. His interpretation of events is distorted. Even the police are in on it, since they don't even arrest gays who are demonstrating. The father in handcuffs shows what happens when one tries to protect his child. No matter if the father may have become belligerent. Then there's the meme of "teaching homosexuality", implying that it's some kind of "how to" course. Some of these people who follow such nonsense actually don't know any better and worry themselves sick over this stuff. Acceptance by our culture of the "gay agenda" is their worst nightmare.

This fellow, though, strikes me as mentally ill, seething with hatred inside, much like some of the hard wired American right wing or skinheads. He's too young to be senile, but his reasoning appears to be guided by intense hate, rather than by logic. I hope he isn't one of those who falls through the cracks for years, then goes off like a roman candle.

Also, he sucks at audio level matching and editing.
 
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