Continuation Part Six: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[acbytesla]

DELETE

 

[Mary_H]

Also, Rudy was just a drug seller, whereas Giacomo was an actual drug grower, and therefore a more entrepreneurial personality.

L-O-L.

 

[Grinder]

Anything is possible Grinder, but outside of Rudy's self serving statements there is ZERO evidence supporting that theory.

Did you ever read the early reports in which the police speculated it might be a person she had met at a party the night before? This was partially based on the fact that there was no sign of rape or forced sex.

The fact that the british girls didn't remember her meeting anybody doesn't mean much to me.

Rudy may very well have been charming, although I have never actually read anyone describing him that way. I also don't really know how well Rudy did with the ladies. My impression although it may very well be false, is that while Rudy liked to portray himself as some kind of ladies man, in reality he wasn't.

Meredith wouldn't have been the first "good girl" to seek out the "bad boy", that is possible. But it really is just a "big maybe" supported by nothing.

As for Rudy being a pariah, it is extremely difficult to think of him in any other way. Granted, I know of no evidence that shows any violent history outside of what happened at Christian's home. What I do see is the Rudy definitely murdered Meredith Kercher, he may have set fire to his neighbor's home and that he was willing to use a knife to escape from Christian's home.

He went out with the Spanish girls two nights in a row. The boys downstairs invited him over when they ran into him in town. The guy that set him up for the Skype call was his friend.

The fire and CT are less than proven.

The boy downstairs was growing pot and didn't have the appearance of a choirboy. I won't go into more detail about him except to say he made it clear they didn't have an exclusive relationship.

Since when convenient Rudy's statements are believed e.g. TOD/scream, he said he made a date with her.

 

[Grinder]

Meredith was dating Giacomo, and it is impossible to say at a distance how serious this relationship was (Giacomo might have minimized it in his testimony). IIRC she disapproved of dating two people at once, in a conversation with Amanda, but I don't recall the source. What did Rudy have that Giacomo did not have? I can't rule out a date with Rudy completely, but I do find it highly unlikely. With respect to alcohol, we have been through this many times. Until and unless I see a vitreous or a bladder value for Meredith's alcohol level, my default position is that she did not drink anything on the evening of 1 November. MOO.

Lalli and another forensic expert said she had the equivalent of one full drink in her system when she died which was about 17-18 hours after she stopped drinking that morning. The second expert tested the liver IIRC.

I doubt she was that drunk at 5 am as she made it home (alone?) and I don't believe the british girls about anything.

I have never heard how she made it home after the party. One would think someone would have escorted her.

 

[Grinder]

Exactly, Grinder's theory requires not only that we accept that Meredith had a date with Rudy, but that Rudy was trying to cover up that date by making it look like a burglary. I would be more inclined to believe it might have been some kind date rape situation with Rudy except for the broken window.

I think it is improbable squared.

I've explained this many a time. If Rudy had made a date with her or thought he had, it would be reasonable for him to worry that she had confided with one or more of her girlfriends. If she had, then he would worry that they would tell the cops. He would think he needed an alternative such as a the guy he came up with that came in and killed her. He could have staged a burglary in the fashion he was most familiar with as a diversion.

Meredith was a circumspect type and wouldn't have told anybody.

 

[Grinder]

Also, Rudy was just a drug seller, whereas Giacomo was an actual drug grower, and therefore a more entrepreneurial personality.

And he had giant holes in his head earlobes.

Although my taste in men isn't of value I think Rudy was much more attractive than Giacomo. He stated they did not have a serious relationship and was out of town.

 

[RoseMontague]

I've explained this many a time. If Rudy had made a date with her or thought he had, it would be reasonable for him to worry that she had confided with one or more of her girlfriends. If she had, then he would worry that they would tell the cops. He would think he needed an alternative such as a the guy he came up with that came in and killed her. He could have staged a burglary in the fashion he was most familiar with as a diversion.

Meredith was a circumspect type and wouldn't have told anybody.

She was out drinking until 4AM earlier that same day. She had a test to study for and she told her friends she was tired. I tend to think it makes sense that she was not interested in a date that night, with Rudy or anyone else.

 

[acbytesla]

Did you ever read the early reports in which the police speculated it might be a person she had met at a party the night before? This was partially based on the fact that there was no sign of rape or forced sex.

The fact that the british girls didn't remember her meeting anybody doesn't mean much to me.



He went out with the Spanish girls two nights in a row. The boys downstairs invited him over when they ran into him in town. The guy that set him up for the Skype call was his friend.

The fire and CT are less than proven.

The boy downstairs was growing pot and didn't have the appearance of a choirboy. I won't go into more detail about him except to say he made it clear they didn't have an exclusive relationship.

Since when convenient Rudy's statements are believed e.g. TOD/scream, he said he made a date with her.

1. He went out with the girls plural two nights in a row. He was in the "friend zone" not the red zone where he really had an opportunity to "score" I never said he was anti social. I also agree Meredith and Giacomo's relationship was not exclusive.

2. As for believing Rudy and what is most likely truth and what is most likely fiction is to evaluate what is "self serving" and what is not. There is a very very good reason for Rudy to lie he had a date with Meredith and virtually no reason for him to lie about the TOD.

 

[acbytesla]

I've explained this many a time. If Rudy had made a date with her or thought he had, it would be reasonable for him to worry that she had confided with one or more of her girlfriends. If she had, then he would worry that they would tell the cops. He would think he needed an alternative such as a the guy he came up with that came in and killed her. He could have staged a burglary in the fashion he was most familiar with as a diversion.

Meredith was a circumspect type and wouldn't have told anybody.

I understand your rationale on this Grinder. But you have to admit it doesn't pass the KISS test of theories.

While your theory is possible, given the available evidence, it is not a very likely scenario...and not because I don't think Meredith wouldn't date a black man, or someone "not of her class". No the reason is there is nothing other than Rudy that might lead us there. No one saw Meredith with Rudy together even for a minute other than the little pot smoking party downstairs. Rose also makes a good point about her being out late the night before and probably just needing some shut eye.

 

[NancyS]

I've explained this many a time. If Rudy had made a date with her or thought he had, it would be reasonable for him to worry that she had confided with one or more of her girlfriends. If she had, then he would worry that they would tell the cops. He would think he needed an alternative such as a the guy he came up with that came in and killed her. He could have staged a burglary in the fashion he was most familiar with as a diversion.

Meredith was a circumspect type and wouldn't have told anybody.

I don't think this is very likely. I'm from a similar area in the UK to Meredith and probably had a similar group of friends at university. The typical British girls night out would involve lots of alcohol, which could have possibly ended up with a drunken kiss and possible exchange of numbers and a few drunken texts. However, it would be unusual behaviour to have a quick conversation and arrange a definite date.

Every detail of the night out would have been dissected and pieced back together during the next day pizza and movie - and it would have been really unusual behaiour to have made a date and not told anyone.

 

[Diocletus]

I don't think this is very likely. I'm from a similar area in the UK to Meredith and probably had a similar group of friends at university. The typical British girls night out would involve lots of alcohol, which could have possibly ended up with a drunken kiss and possible exchange of numbers and a few drunken texts. However, it would be unusual behaviour to have a quick conversation and arrange a definite date.

Every detail of the night out would have been dissected and pieced back together during the next day pizza and movie - and it would have been really unusual behaiour to have made a date and not told anyone.

I agree with Nancy S. And I'm not British or even a girl. I just think that's the way it works.

 

[RWVBWL]

The Stage is set...

Sorry, but... based on what?

I mean, the crime was obviously a sexual murder. There might have been other motives and causal factors too, but there was also a sexual context.
Then, if you take in account that obvious physical evidence indicated multiple perpetrators (and even if you disagree, you may take in account that there are people - like me - who believe they can see such physical evidence as obvious), and if evidence points to Knox (who was obviously a liar from the beginning), then you must assume that Knox was involved in some sexual scenario, and you need to consider clues of her possible sexual attitude, I don't see any logical alternative.

Hey Machiavelli,
I thought that you pro-guilt folks believe that Filomena's bedroom window was broken to help stage the crime scene.

But if the crime was found to look like a sex crime,
and it actually was,
what staging happened afterwards and overnight when Miss Kercher was slain?

Stage a sex murder to ah, hmmm, make it look like a sex murder?
Right...

 

[Grinder]

She was out drinking until 4AM earlier that same day. She had a test to study for and she told her friends she was tired. I tend to think it makes sense that she was not interested in a date that night, with Rudy or anyone else.

And maybe she realized that at the pizza party and really didn't want him to come by, but he did. She was polite for a little while and then told him she was too tired and he blew up and killed her when she rejected him.

I notice that AC ignores the early reports and others, as has been the case for years, wish to ignore that she had alcohol in her system.

We really have no idea if he had many women but I'd bet more than Raf.

 

[Diocletus]

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[acbytesla]

And maybe she realized that at the pizza party and really didn't want him to come by, but he did. She was polite for a little while and then told him she was too tired and he blew up and killed her when she rejected him.

I notice that AC ignores the early reports and others, as has been the case for years, wish to ignore that she had alcohol in her system.

We really have no idea if he had many women but I'd bet more than Raf.

I'm not ignoring it Grinder, but I think Chris has addressed the alcohol situation.

As I have said before, I can't "disprove" your theory. I just don't see it as likely. We will have to agree to disagree. Take care

 

[Supernaut]

Anything is possible Grinder, but outside of Rudy's self serving statements there is ZERO evidence supporting that theory.

Rudy may very well have been charming, although I have never actually read anyone describing him that way. I also don't really know how well Rudy did with the ladies. My impression although it may very well be false, is that while Rudy liked to portray himself as some kind of ladies man, in reality he wasn't.

Meredith wouldn't have been the first "good girl" to seek out the "bad boy", that is possible. But it really is just a "big maybe" supported by nothing.

As for Rudy being a pariah, it is extremely difficult to think of him in any other way. Granted, I know of no evidence that shows any violent history outside of what happened at Christian's home. What I do see is the Rudy definitely murdered Meredith Kercher, he may have set fire to his neighbor's home and that he was willing to use a knife to escape from Christian's home.

Widely reported is that Guede has a scar on his torso or abdomen from a knife-fight, acquired some years before the murder, but many of these reports are simply echoing each other.

Would be interesting to get verifiable details.

Google "rudy guede abdominal knife scar".

 

[RWVBWL]

I've explained this many a time. If Rudy had made a date with her or thought he had, it would be reasonable for him to worry that she had confided with one or more of her girlfriends. If she had, then he would worry that they would tell the cops. He would think he needed an alternative such as a the guy he came up with that came in and killed her. He could have staged a burglary in the fashion he was most familiar with as a diversion.
Meredith was a circumspect type and wouldn't have told anybody.

Grinder,
Do you really believe that placing a pillow under a dead, naked woman's genitalia is consistant with staging a burglary?

Come on!

If Guede wanted to stage a burglary, all he had to do was re-dress Miss Kercher, wipe up his bloody footprints, wipe the blood off her purse,the wall+the doorknob, throw her corpse out of Filomena's broken window, and then toss or bury that pillow+it's pillow case, the bathmat and Miss Kercher's cell phones and keys somewhere in the valley that echo's below or elswhere when he split the murder scene...


Rudy Guede staged a burglary in the fashion he was most familiar with as a diversion?
Sure.

 

[Diocletus]

Hey Machiavelli,
I thought that you pro-guilt folks believe that Filomena's bedroom window was broken to help stage the crime scene.

But if the crime was found to look like a sex crime,
and it actually was,
what staging happened afterwards and overnight when Miss Kercher was slain?

Stage a sex murder to ah, hmmm, make it look like a sex murder?
Right...

The burglary was real. The murder was staged to cover up for the broken window.

 

[Grinder]

I don't think this is very likely. I'm from a similar area in the UK to Meredith and probably had a similar group of friends at university. The typical British girls night out would involve lots of alcohol, which could have possibly ended up with a drunken kiss and possible exchange of numbers and a few drunken texts. However, it would be unusual behaviour to have a quick conversation and arrange a definite date.

Maybe with the language difference and all, Rudy may have thought he made a date when Meredith didn't. Remember some people here have maintained that she was so drunk at 5 am that one drink equivalent remained 16 -18 hours later. Shaky testified that he had to give the british girls rides home because they couldn't walk.

Every detail of the night out would have been dissected and pieced back together during the next day pizza and movie - and it would have been really unusual behaiour to have made a date and not told anyone.

And that's what Rudy would have feared. I think that Meredith could have forgotten or didn't want to mention it, because I think she was very private. She perhaps would have been embarrassed to be dating two at once or just didn't think you busybody Coulsdon girls could keep your mouths shut.

Look to me it's possible. To me it's another possible explanation for the initial police opinion and the "staged" window. It also fits with Rudy's first story in that it would explain the intruder.

Not withstanding Occam it is not always the case that the simplest explanation is the correct one. Just like Locard was wrong that something is always left behind.

 

[Grinder]

I'm not ignoring it Grinder, but I think Chris has addressed the alcohol situation.

As I have said before, I can't "disprove" your theory. I just don't see it as likely. We will have to agree to disagree. Take care

Chris has said something but he certainly has not disproven what the experts determined.

The same coroner that most all here rely on for contents of the duodenum is the one that first determined she had .43g/l in her blood at death. This was confirmed by a second forensic expert by testing the liver.

He stated that the results of the toxicological analyses revealed the absence of psychotropic drugs and a blood alcohol level of 0.43 grams/litre


He then went on to detail the outcome of the alcohol level test. He recalled that the level of alcohol found in Perugia at the Institute of Forensic Medicine was 0.43 grams per litre; the [level] that had been [152] detected in the blood, however, at the headquarters of the expert report commissioned for the pre-trial hearing [incidente probatorio] was 2.72 grams per litre. On the basis of such contrasting results, a check was carried out on the alcohol percentage in other regions: in the gastric content and then in the liver. A value substantially of zero had been found in the gastric content and, he stressed, ‚in the gastric content the quantity of alcohol is frighteningly greater than in the blood‛ (page 106). In the liver too a very slight quantity had been detected, equal to 0.2, which was comparable from the pharmacokinetic point of view with the 0.43 verified by Dr. Lalli at the Institute of Forensic Medicine

I would challenge anyone and Chris in particular to list all the things they accept of Lalli's and what they reject. I don't believe that I have or do doubt anything in Lalli's testimony.

The absolute best evidence says she had a drink in her system at death. As I see it there are these possible ways; she was so drunk it was still in her system, she had more than one drink after waking up and going to the pizza party, she drank at the party and the girls didn't notice or lied or she had a drink after she returned home.

I have always thought the alcohol needs to be explained but it gets in the way of KISS and who wants to be called stupid except you know who?