Continuation Part Six: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[RoseMontague]

Without becoming part of this grand debate, I would like to point people back to the first days. Reports came out in the british tabs about consensual sex and the possibility/probability that Meredith had met her killer the night before at a Halloween party. One paper referred to Meredith as a party girl, unfortunately one I can't find.

About day three, before the arrest, the stories started changing and the satanic, rite, sex game and all those began taking over. The PLE were leaking like sieves all sorts of details about the case including specifics about what the kids said or wrote in custody.

Given what we have learned about Napoleoni and her team, it wouldn't surprise me that they were the source of some of the leaks including the theories of what happened.

I have believed and still do that some of the movement about what happened regarding the sex was influenced by the british tab press. The Kerchers were understandably upset by some of the reports in their tabs and John may were have been able to influence coverage. The reports changed from a date to a rape.

I have no ability to parse Italian and I don't know how widely interpreted the word riti can be.

Personally, I don't see the value in this bashing session with Mach. I think the focus needs to be on the case and not the alleged aberrations of Mignini.

The defense should concentrate on the interrogation, the blobs called foot prints, the defective DNA work and other key pieces of "hard" circumstantial evidence.

It would be my choice to save the bashing of the Italians until after Amanda and Raf are found not guilty at some level, hopefully in Italy. By that I certainly don't mean specific criticisms of police work e.g. collection of evidence.

OT - I'm not happy with the bills I'm being sent by some of you for psychological analysis.

Hmmm. I think we are ignoring some of the things going on in Perugia the day before the murder....


http://translate.googleusercontent....ia.htm&usg=ALkJrhh8Npm93r29Tpo_6Q3oyXgVN1PrVQ

 

[acbytesla]

Without becoming part of this grand debate, I would like to point people back to the first days. Reports came out in the british tabs about consensual sex and the possibility/probability that Meredith had met her killer the night before at a Halloween party. One paper referred to Meredith as a party girl, unfortunately one I can't find.

About day three, before the arrest, the stories started changing and the satanic, rite, sex game and all those began taking over. The PLE were leaking like sieves all sorts of details about the case including specifics about what the kids said or wrote in custody.

Given what we have learned about Napoleoni and her team, it wouldn't surprise me that they were the source of some of the leaks including the theories of what happened.

I have believed and still do that some of the movement about what happened regarding the sex was influenced by the british tab press. The Kerchers were understandably upset by some of the reports in their tabs and John may were have been able to influence coverage. The reports changed from a date to a rape.

I have no ability to parse Italian and I don't know how widely interpreted the word riti can be.

Personally, I don't see the value in this bashing session with Mach. I think the focus needs to be on the case and not the alleged aberrations of Mignini.

The defense should concentrate on the interrogation, the blobs called foot prints, the defective DNA work and other key pieces of "hard" circumstantial evidence.

It would be my choice to save the bashing of the Italians until after Amanda and Raf are found not guilty at some level, hopefully in Italy. By that I certainly don't mean specific criticisms of police work e.g. collection of evidence.

OT - I'm not happy with the bills I'm being sent by some of you for psychological analysis.

While I don't believe that Rudy had any kind of date with Meredith, I do think that Meredith just like Amanda and just like countless other people their age were exploring their sexuality and being away from home in the romantic world of Italy, they were more interested in having fun than developing any lasting relationship.

I do agree that the Italians changed their narrative about Meredith when they saw it wasn't playing well making the victim of this crime out to be a "party girl".

 

[acbytesla]

Hmmm. I think we are ignoring some of the things going on in Perugia the day before the murder....


http://translate.googleusercontent....ia.htm&usg=ALkJrhh8Npm93r29Tpo_6Q3oyXgVN1PrVQ

That is interesting. I've always thought that in so many ways women have been treated poorly by virtually every society. While it is often cloaked in the guise of protecting them, in reality it has been more about "enslaving" women more than anything.

I'm very curious right now if Malala Yousafzai a young Pakistani girl is going to win the Nobel Peace Prize for her stand on education for girls.

 

[Bill Williams]

Sorry, but... based on what?

I mean, the crime was obviously a sexual murder. There might have been other motives and causal factors too, but there was also a sexual context.
Then, if you take in account that obvious physical evidence indicated multiple perpetrators (and even if you disagree, you may take in account that there are people - like me - who believe they can see such physical evidence as obvious), and if evidence points to Knox (who was obviously a liar from the beginning), then you must assume that Knox was involved in some sexual scenario, and you need to consider clues of her possible sexual attitude, I don't see any logical alternative.

This is the nub of the issue.

You can only think Knox a liar if you come to it thinking she's guilty. You can only think Knox a liar if, at interrogation "She buckled and told us what we already knew."

You can only think Knox a liar if you misinterpret, "I was there", which came from a secret prison recording of a conversation between her and her mom.

Your "obvious" things above are your confirmation bias.

 

[Bill Williams]

And as I - someone who has worked with people with sleep deprivation in a clinical setting - pointed out, Knox's writing was very poor given her educational background, contained all the signs and symptoms of sleep deprivation that any reasonable person would expect, and is visibily poor compared to all known previous samples of her writing.

I have no idea what you were expecting her writing to look like, but it looks exactly like you would expect it to look like if she was sleep deprived. The I's are inconsistent, she forgets to dot quite a few i's and j's, her t's are all over the place, her grammer is poor, her sentences are fragmented, the spacing is poor left to right and top to bottom.

Knox has fairly neat writing by the standards of our day, her sleep deprived writing looks exactly as you would expect it to. My writing is horrible, my sleep deprived writing would be barely legible.

I'm guessing you're expecting it to look like a spider crawled across a page, rather silly given what Knox's writing normally looks like.

I have no idea where you're getting the 'serious sleep deprived syndrome' from - exactly which poster claimed Knox had a syndrome as opposed to being merely sleep deprived?

It was Machiavelli who put it this way: that Knox could choose not to sleep, and suffer no consequences for this choice. He discerned this from her writing.

What was at issue was her frame of mind going into the interrogation. Machiavelli was resisting the notion that someone who'd just had a friend killed, who'd lost their home as a result, had to buy underwear.... and had been questioned endlessly by police...

.... the notion that she might have been exhausted and a tad confused going in to the interrogation! For Machiavelli's worldview to work, Knox needs to be on top of her manipulative game, ready to do rhetorical battle with mafia-hardened, seasoned interrogators!

And she needs to be able to pull the wool over their eyes... essentially making fools of them with their comment, "She buckled and told us what we already knew." Mach, and Mignini, want to replay those early morning interrogations to reinterpret why the "caso chiuso" of Nov 6 was so wrong.

Both Mach, Mignini and Andrea Vogt want to sell to the world - no, it was not the PLE who blew it, it was a 20-year-old foreigner who barely spoke the language who wilfully misled them. In fact, for them the wilful misleading IS the proof of her guilt.

It's why Mach 2 insists on saying that it's "obvious" she lied. No other interpretation is possible for the guilt position.

 

[Grinder]

While I don't believe that Rudy had any kind of date with Meredith, I do think that Meredith just like Amanda and just like countless other people their age were exploring their sexuality and being away from home in the romantic world of Italy, they were more interested in having fun than developing any lasting relationship.

Since I didn't say anything about Rudy's possible date, it is interesting that you respond this way. It is verboten to "tarnish" anything about her, but I don't think Rudy was the pariah he is now made out to be. The british girls were most likely drunk as skunks by 4 am and some here have argued that Meredith one drink of alcohol found in her system was left-over from the night's activity. Everybody seemed reluctant to talk about their real lives. The cottage girls didn't smoke and the british girls didn't drink at their party. Early reports had Meredith not dating.

It is not a stretch for me to believe that she arranged to meet with Rudy. I think those that doubt the possibility may be a bit racist or classist.

 

[acbytesla]

This is the nub of the issue.

You can only think Knox a liar if you come to it thinking she's guilty. You can only think Knox a liar if, at interrogation "She buckled and told us what we already knew."

You can only think Knox a liar if you misinterpret, "I was there", which came from a secret prison recording of a conversation between her and her mom.

Your "obvious" things above are your confirmation bias.

It makes you wonder how many others has Machiavelli convicted and spoke against without evidence? How many of those wrongfully accused in the MOF case has he spoken out against?

 

[acbytesla]

Since I didn't say anything about Rudy's possible date, it is interesting that you respond this way. It is verboten to "tarnish" anything about her, but I don't think Rudy was the pariah he is now made out to be. The british girls were most likely drunk as skunks by 4 am and some here have argued that Meredith one drink of alcohol found in her system was left-over from the night's activity. Everybody seemed reluctant to talk about their real lives. The cottage girls didn't smoke and the british girls didn't drink at their party. Early reports had Meredith not dating.

It is not a stretch for me to believe that she arranged to meet with Rudy. I think those that doubt the possibility may be a bit racist or classist.

Anything is possible Grinder, but outside of Rudy's self serving statements there is ZERO evidence supporting that theory.

Rudy may very well have been charming, although I have never actually read anyone describing him that way. I also don't really know how well Rudy did with the ladies. My impression although it may very well be false, is that while Rudy liked to portray himself as some kind of ladies man, in reality he wasn't.

Meredith wouldn't have been the first "good girl" to seek out the "bad boy", that is possible. But it really is just a "big maybe" supported by nothing.

As for Rudy being a pariah, it is extremely difficult to think of him in any other way. Granted, I know of no evidence that shows any violent history outside of what happened at Christian's home. What I do see is the Rudy definitely murdered Meredith Kercher, he may have set fire to his neighbor's home and that he was willing to use a knife to escape from Christian's home.

 

[Bill Williams]

This is the nub of the issue.

You can only think Knox a liar if you come to it thinking she's guilty. You can only think Knox a liar if, at interrogation "She buckled and told us what we already knew."

You can only think Knox a liar if you misinterpret, "I was there", which came from a secret prison recording of a conversation between her and her mom.

Your "obvious" things above are your confirmation bias.

It makes you wonder how many others has Machiavelli convicted and spoke against without evidence? How many of those wrongfully accused in the MOF case has he spoken out against?

Well, Mignini's own comment following the Oct 2011 acquittals was, "My troubles started with the Narducci case."

It's why Machiavelli goes full bore in calling Mario Spezi already convicted, even before the trial. There's a lot riding on the outcome of these cases, and there's a lot riding on the rhetorical war about Mignini's use of "Satanic rite" in the Kercher case....

There are lines in the sand that Machiavelli draws very clearly. The latest is Mignini's letter, which no one is actually sure even got published; all we know is that a North American hate site has an English version of it translated by .... ah, er, Machiavelli.

In it, Mignini is trying to put distance between himself and (now) one of the judges who believed him enough to lock two innocents away. The best that Machiavelli can say is that one of the reasons for locking the two students away is in the judge's own words which, if you listen to Machiavelli, the judge must have invented out of thin air.

The reality is, the "Satanic rite" thing was what Mignini brought to the court as an initial, operative theory.

How many in the MOF case has Mignini spoken out against? Well, as long as Machiavelli and Andrea Vogt do their jobs, why would he have to?

 

[Diocletus]

Since I didn't say anything about Rudy's possible date, it is interesting that you respond this way. It is verboten to "tarnish" anything about her, but I don't think Rudy was the pariah he is now made out to be. The british girls were most likely drunk as skunks by 4 am and some here have argued that Meredith one drink of alcohol found in her system was left-over from the night's activity. Everybody seemed reluctant to talk about their real lives. The cottage girls didn't smoke and the british girls didn't drink at their party. Early reports had Meredith not dating.

It is not a stretch for me to believe that she arranged to meet with Rudy. I think those that doubt the possibility may be a bit racist or classist.

If there was an actual date, then it seems like it would have been a little counterproductive to break in and kill her.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

strong balance of probabilities

Meredith was dating Giacomo, and it is impossible to say at a distance how serious this relationship was (Giacomo might have minimized it in his testimony). IIRC she disapproved of dating two people at once, in a conversation with Amanda, but I don't recall the source. What did Rudy have that Giacomo did not have? I can't rule out a date with Rudy completely, but I do find it highly unlikely. With respect to alcohol, we have been through this many times. Until and unless I see a vitreous or a bladder value for Meredith's alcohol level, my default position is that she did not drink anything on the evening of 1 November. MOO.

 

[acbytesla]

Well, Mignini's own comment following the Oct 2011 acquittals was, "My troubles started with the Narducci case."

It's why Machiavelli goes full bore in calling Mario Spezi already convicted, even before the trial. There's a lot riding on the outcome of these cases, and there's a lot riding on the rhetorical war about Mignini's use of "Satanic rite" in the Kercher case....

There are lines in the sand that Machiavelli draws very clearly. The latest is Mignini's letter, which no one is actually sure even got published; all we know is that a North American hate site has an English version of it translated by .... ah, er, Machiavelli.

In it, Mignini is trying to put distance between himself and (now) one of the judges who believed him enough to lock two innocents away. The best that Machiavelli can say is that one of the reasons for locking the two students away is in the judge's own words which, if you listen to Machiavelli, the judge must have invented out of thin air.

The reality is, the "Satanic rite" thing was what Mignini brought to the court as an initial, operative theory.

How many in the MOF case has Mignini spoken out against? Well, as long as Machiavelli and Andrea Vogt do their jobs, why would he have to?

No Vogt and Mach are just taking their marching orders. Mignini writes the talking points.

It really does seem like Mignini is the modern version of Chief Justice William Stoughton of Salem. This backtracking is an attempt to revise history not correct it. The reality is the Commodi was going to quit, because of Mignini's playing that same old note of devil worship that he employed over and over again in the MOF case.

 

[acbytesla]

If there was an actual date, then it seems like it would have been a little counterproductive to break in and kill her.

Exactly, Grinder's theory requires not only that we accept that Meredith had a date with Rudy, but that Rudy was trying to cover up that date by making it look like a burglary. I would be more inclined to believe it might have been some kind date rape situation with Rudy except for the broken window.

I think it is improbable squared.

 

[billyryan]

Well, Mignini's own comment following the Oct 2011 acquittals was, "My troubles started with the Narducci case."

It's why Machiavelli goes full bore in calling Mario Spezi already convicted, even before the trial. There's a lot riding on the outcome of these cases, and there's a lot riding on the rhetorical war about Mignini's use of "Satanic rite" in the Kercher case....

There are lines in the sand that Machiavelli draws very clearly. The latest is Mignini's letter, which no one is actually sure even got published; all we know is that a North American hate site has an English version of it translated by .... ah, er, Machiavelli.In it, Mignini is trying to put distance between himself and (now) one of the judges who believed him enough to lock two innocents away. The best that Machiavelli can say is that one of the reasons for locking the two students away is in the judge's own words which, if you listen to Machiavelli, the judge must have invented out of thin air.

The reality is, the "Satanic rite" thing was what Mignini brought to the court as an initial, operative theory.

How many in the MOF case has Mignini spoken out against? Well, as long as Machiavelli and Andrea Vogt do their jobs, why would he have to?

I think this is proof of a very close relationship between Mignini and Machiavelli,Mignini wrote the letter sent it to the paper and to his payed PR man Machiavelli,who translated and printed on TJMK,whoever calls the shots at the Italian paper have their finger on how the sand is shifting in Italy and decided not to print the letter from this lying framing thug Mignini,who I hope is soon to be scapegoated for the framing of two innocents,who knows maybe it was Mignini who made the phone call to Milan to the police not to charge Rudy with theft and to put him on a train back to Perugia

 

[acbytesla]

I think this is proof of a very close relationship between Mignini and Machiavelli,Mignini wrote the letter sent it to the paper and to his payed PR man Machiavelli,who translated and printed on TJMK,whoever calls the shots at the Italian paper have their finger on how the sand is shifting in Italy and decided not to print the letter from this lying framing thug Mignini,who I hope is soon to be scapegoated for the framing of two innocents,who knows maybe it was Mignini who made the phone call to Milan to the police not to charge Rudy with theft and to put him on a train back to Perugia

I agree about all of this except the part that Mignini made the phone call to Milan. While possible, I think it was someone at a lower level who just determined that this was just a petty crime with sketchy evidence and didn't want it on the court's docket.

 

[Mary_H]

Since I didn't say anything about Rudy's possible date, it is interesting that you respond this way. It is verboten to "tarnish" anything about her, but I don't think Rudy was the pariah he is now made out to be. The british girls were most likely drunk as skunks by 4 am and some here have argued that Meredith one drink of alcohol found in her system was left-over from the night's activity. Everybody seemed reluctant to talk about their real lives. The cottage girls didn't smoke and the british girls didn't drink at their party. Early reports had Meredith not dating.

It is not a stretch for me to believe that she arranged to meet with Rudy. I think those that doubt the possibility may be a bit racist or classist.

I actually agree with you on this point, that is, I apply the possibility to myself and others. On the other hand, I never heard any of the English girls or Meredith's family say there was any likelihood Meredith would have dated him. In fact, I think they were a bit put out when Rudy's lawyer took that approach in his summation. There is a good chance Meredith was as racist and classist as anyone.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

guitar man

I actually agree with you on this point, that is, I apply the possibility to myself and others. On the other hand, I never heard any of the English girls or Meredith's family say there was any likelihood Meredith would have dated him. In fact, I think they were a bit put out when Rudy's lawyer took that approach in his summation. There is a good chance Meredith was as racist and classist as anyone.

Meredith did not have to be racist or classist to prefer Giacomo to Rudy. Maybe Giacomo was a better musician, etc. My two cents.

 

[Diocletus]

Meredith did not have to be racist or classist to prefer Giacomo to Rudy. Maybe Giacomo was a better musician, etc. My two cents.

Also, Rudy was just a drug seller, whereas Giacomo was an actual drug grower, and therefore a more entrepreneurial personality.

 

[Skind]

It was Machiavelli who put it this way: that Knox could choose not to sleep, and suffer no consequences for this choice. He discerned this from her writing.

I was initially going to disagree, then I realised - this is exactly the way Mach has argued it.

Mach argued that people with sleep deprivation seek sleep (which is not true in many cases - there's even a name for people who are sleep deprived and who avoid sleep) and that , because Knox chose not to sleep, she therefore cannot have been sleep deprived.

Saying that Knox had any choice in her sleep is to deny the stress of the previous days - we know that several friends of Meredith had extremely disturbed sleep because of it, with one even having to receive treatment a year later. Knox 'chose' not to sleep in the same way that I'm currently 'choosing' not to be able to breathe properly. Following Mach's logic, my chest infection and asthma have nothing to do with it.

Mach has argued that Knox chose not to sleep and that Knox had the foresight to choose not to be affected by her choice - even though sleep deprivation often arises precisely because the person doesn't get enough sleep, whether through choice or illness.

Plenty of students 'choose' not to sleep much at weekends, yet no-one would sensibly deny that they are sleeped deprived when they crawl in for monday morning lectures.

Knox 'choosing' not to sleep is the cause of, not proof negative, of any sleep deprivation.

The Mach's really need to make sure one knows what the other has typed, or she really needs to keep her story straight.

 

[acbytesla]

Meredith did not have to be racist or classist to prefer Giacomo to Rudy. Maybe Giacomo was a better musician, etc. My two cents.

I don't think it is a question of those things, or race or class. Personally, I think Giacomo is a bit of an ass. He is playing that role of "player". For me, it's just that there is no evidence of any real contact between the two. The only think that supports the date theory is Rudy and Rudy has every reason to explain why his DNA was on and in Meredith.