Continuation Part Six: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[Bill Williams]

Machiavelli will say anything to defend that fat toad Mignini and his cohort in crime, Stefanoni. I chose to believe Spezi.

Whereas it may be an insult to actual fat toads to make the comparison.... given the kind of supporters that Mr. Mignini has - Machiavelli and Ms. Vogt - I also would tend to believe Spezi, too. But I am also content to wait until the trial before calling Spezi, or anyone for that matter who is simply charged, a proven criminal.

If Machiavelli had ANY credibility beforehand, he pretty well blew it with that comment. Please remember, JREF is a site for skeptics... in this case, Machiavelli offers adequate proof.

 

[Machiavelli]

This is why people have trials, they are presumed innocent.

But you are not rooting for the Boston bomber. I suppose.
He is presumed innocent, until the trial is over, by the law. But for you to root for him or believe him, I guess that requires something more than just being indicted of some crime.
To believe someone is innocent, or to root for him, or just to believe him when he writes articles or complains with the CPJ, as you claim to do, that is something quite different.

 

[RoseMontague]

But you are not rooting for the Boston bomber. I suppose.
He is presumed innocent, until the trial is over, by the law. But for you to root for him or believe him, I guess that requires something more than just being indicted of some crime.
To believe someone is innocent, or to root for him, or just to believe him when he writes articles or complains with the CPJ, as you claim to do, that is something quite different.

No, I am rooting for Spezi on this one. Go Spezi. Kick Migi's butt.

 

[Bill Williams]

The "rites" which Micheli mentions are in fact meand by Mignini as being just Halloween and the Italian Holiday of Saints (originally the Celtic First Day of the year), which means, they are dates. It's an argument to suggest Oct 30. and Nov. 1. are seen as the same holiday in Perugia, hence you can transfer the Halloween atmosphere/mode on Nov. 1.
Instead of ritualistic murder, judge Micheli correctly points out that the event is called by Mignini "festino". Which is absolutely not a ritual, but a "little party", a "little fun".

Your own quote belies you, Machiavelli...

This is a Google Translate of what you, yourself, provided.....

a little 'lighted up by the PM, while not asserting, in the descriptive to say the least imaginative reconstruction of rituals, feasts of Halloween, manga publications and opportunities not to be missed,

For you to say that this only refers to only "a little fun", presumably unconnected with the date - the date which Mr. Mignini himself finds so much meaning in - is all the evidence fair and impartial readers of this JREF service need.

I will leave it to others to decide who the liar is here. I say that Mignini accused Knox and Sollecito of engaging in a Satanic ritualistic murder. You say that it was not a full blown "riutal" per se, but "a little fun," "a little party"... presumably, though, still associated with Hallowe'en.

Do you just make things up on the fly? Will Ms. Vogt be saying the same thing on her blog?

 

[Bill Williams]

But you are not rooting for the Boston bomber. I suppose.
He is presumed innocent, until the trial is over, by the law. But for you to root for him or believe him, I guess that requires something more than just being indicted of some crime.
To believe someone is innocent, or to root for him, or just to believe him when he writes articles or complains with the CPJ, as you claim to do, that is something quite different.

Machiavelli - this is a completely idiotic analogy. The scary thing would be if you did not realize it and tried to further argue it.

It reminds me a bit of when you tried to claim that Amanda Knox could choose not to sleep, something you gleaned from her writings. I sincerely think you just make up stuff on the spot without thinking.

 

[Machiavelli]

LOL. Of course they are just dates. Migi is simply giving a calendar lesson. That's all, nothing to see here, move along.

There is no "ritual murder scenario"; there is no "sect-like" scenario; there is no Satanism motive; you can pretty well see that.

In fact Mignini does not talk merely about dates, he also suggest that it is "not unrealistic" (non è inverosimile) that these peculiar dates plaid a role - together with the other material (comics, violent porn videos etc) - as a cultural theme suggestion for the two "obsessive" charachters to chose that day to organize a "festino" (a little fun; party, prank, etc.).

It's quite obvious that Mignini is talking about dates and about a possible ("not unrealistic") theme (or suggestion, inspiration, idea) for having a little party. (little, because they were supposed to be only four people).

This is what the text says.
No satanism. No sect. No ritual sacrifice. No ritual murder.

 

[RoseMontague]

There is no "ritual murder scenario"; there is no "sect-like" scenario; there is no Satanism motive; you can pretty well see that.

In fact Mignini does not talk merely about dates, he also suggest that it is "not unrealistic" (non è inverosimile) that these peculiar dates plaid a role - together with the other material (comics, violent porn videos etc) - as a cultural theme suggestion for the two "obsessive" charachters to chose that day to organize a "festino" (a little fun; party, prank, etc.).

It's quite obvious that Mignini is talking about dates and about a possible ("not unrealistic") theme (or suggestion, inspiration, idea) for having a little party. (little, because they were supposed to be only four people).

This is what the text says.
No satanism. No sect. No ritual sacrifice. No ritual murder.

riti... that is a word Micheli uses. What does that word mean, Mach?

 

[acbytesla]

Machiavelli will say anything to defend that fat toad Mignini and his cohort in crime, Stefanoni. I chose to believe Spezi.

I know. I have watched his sophistry and obfuscation in action. His idolatry of that fat gas bag is something to behold.

 

[Bill Williams]

riti... that is a word Micheli uses. What does that word mean, Mach?

Don't bother, RoseM.... we're about to be treated to a long bit if dieterology (if I have that right) on why black is white and why white is black....

I'm just saying.

 

[Machiavelli]

Machiavelli - this is a completely idiotic analogy. The scary thing would be if you did not realize it and tried to further argue it.

It reminds me a bit of when you tried to claim that Amanda Knox could choose not to sleep, something you gleaned from her writings. I sincerely think you just make up stuff on the spot without thinking.

I hope one day you become humble enough to read what is written; and maybe understand - something to which btw even Mary H agreed to, that is it is apparent tha Knox did not have any serious sleep deprivation syndrome - just to mention even only the one element that decide you mention, the handwriting: if you have a serious sleep deprivation syndrome, this shows up in your handwriting, because affects fine movements of the hand. This is just one of the many factual details that you choose to ignore. It is an example. maybe the only ne that you remember. Then I know you will go on making up strange 'summaries' about alleged other people's thoughts.

Of course, if someone is caught while forging false witness statments and attempting to place false evidence and weaponry in someone else's house, together with a known mafioso, I guess normal, honest people who are aware of it thay would be extremely reluctant about "believing" or "rooting" for the man.

 

[Bill Williams]

These two bits of analysis of Mignini's latest letter, translated to English by Machiavelli and a, ah er, helper, are not my analysis, but they are pretty spot on. Read for your understanding of who you are defending if you believe Mignini's case ever had the slightest bit of merit....

For me the significance of Mignini's letter is that -- as the innocence of Knox and Sollecito becomes more obvious -- he is clearly scrambling to distance himself as the sole author of their persecution.

He is correct in pointing to the number of judges who gave him what he wanted, for example preventive detention of Knox and Sollecito based on false or bogus evidence. It is disturbing that in Italy prosecutors and judges know each other very well, and the latter often simply give the former what they ask for. The problem with this practice is that it effectively erases the checks and balances built into their legal system.

Such practices also discredit his argument that judges were in agreement with him about the merits of his case.

That so many judges ruled in his favor merely exposes the corruption of the system. They failed in their duty to rein in a renegade prosecutor.


He shows four things clearly, thank you Guiliano,

1) proves he really is a dirty old man.
2) proves that Italian cronyism exists, just like all the Italian posters have been telling us for years.
3) proves that he will use the media to spread his message, as he has demonstrated from the beginning.
4) demonstrates the Core Hater Memes, memes we have all cataloged and discussed for years.​

And for me, personally, demonstrates that he is a dangerous man. Just like Doug, Mario, Amanda and Raffaele have been telling us.

He is a devil, he is the textbook Bully. He and his little helpers *ahem* have demonstrated classic bullying in the past few weeks with their ongoing dedication to the Smear Campaign, using Twitter as the latest battle front, but then the Smear Campaign has been well organized from the start, hasn't it? If you have ever observed a schoolyard bully you see how organized they are, recruiting helpers and shouting down victims, scaring people into submission, campaigns of terror.

 

[RoseMontague]

Of course, if someone is caught while forging false witness statments and attempting to place false evidence and weaponry in someone else's house, together with a known mafioso, I guess normal, honest people who are aware of it thay would be extremely reluctant about "believing" or "rooting" for the man.

It was just one of those fun party things, Mach. You know a riti. Big riti. I love a good riti.

 

[Ampulla of Vater]

<snip>

Of course, if someone is caught while forging false witness statments and attempting to place false evidence and weaponry in someone else's house, together with a known mafioso, I guess normal, honest people who are aware of it thay would be extremely reluctant about "believing" or "rooting" for the man.

Ain't the Koolaid cold!

 

[Bill Williams]

Machiavelli - this is a completely idiotic analogy. The scary thing would be if you did not realize it and tried to further argue it.
It reminds me a bit of when you tried to claim that Amanda Knox could choose not to sleep, something you gleaned from her writings. I sincerely think you just make up stuff on the spot without thinking.

I hope one day you become humble enough to read what is written; and maybe understand - something to which btw even Mary H agreed to, that is it is apparent tha Knox did not have any serious sleep deprivation syndrome - just to mention even only the one element that decide you mention, the handwriting: if you have a serious sleep deprivation syndrome, this shows up in your handwriting, because affects fine movements of the hand. This is just one of the many factual details that you choose to ignore. It is an example. maybe the only ne that you remember. Then I know you will go on making up strange 'summaries' about alleged other people's thoughts.

Of course, if someone is caught while forging false witness statments and attempting to place false evidence and weaponry in someone else's house, together with a known mafioso, I guess normal, honest people who are aware of it thay would be extremely reluctant about "believing" or "rooting" for the man.

Yup, it's officially now scary. You actually believe what you write.

You wrote that you could tell that Amanda Knox could choose not to sleep and you gleaned this from referencing her writings. Now you're telling me that I misunderstood and misrepresent what you said, THEN you go on to say exactly the same thing again.

Are you all right?

 

[Bill Williams]

Machiavelli:

What is Mr. Mignini's relationship with the fortune teller Ms. Carlizzi? Why is it in his letter, which you translated, he does not distance himself from her?

 

[RoseMontague]

Machiavelli:

What is Mr. Mignini's relationship with the fortune teller Ms. Carlizzi? Why is it in his letter, which you translated, he does not distance himself from her?

I believe she was his primary source of information until she passed away. I think he switched to drug dealers after that.

 

[acbytesla]

I hope one day you become humble enough to read what is written; and maybe understand - something to which btw even Mary H agreed to, that is it is apparent tha Knox did not have any serious sleep deprivation syndrome - just to mention even only the one element that decide you mention, the handwriting: if you have a serious sleep deprivation syndrome, this shows up in your handwriting, because affects fine movements of the hand. This is just one of the many factual details that you choose to ignore. It is an example. maybe the only ne that you remember. Then I know you will go on making up strange 'summaries' about alleged other people's thoughts.

Of course, if someone is caught while forging false witness statments and attempting to place false evidence and weaponry in someone else's house, together with a known mafioso, I guess normal, honest people who are aware of it thay would be extremely reluctant about "believing" or "rooting" for the man.

It is really strange seeing you of all people trying to to suggest that Bill should be humble. I have never seen anyone practice arrogance, sophistry and deceit as you do on this forum.

 

[Bill Williams]

According to one NY newspaper, this is the world Mignini and a woman named Gabriella Carlizzi occupied in Perugia....

If nothing else, I now see what drives Machiavelli, and presumably Andrea Vogt, to suspecting a Masonic conspiracy behind all this.

See: http://nypost.com/2011/10/02/how-occult-obsessed-prosecutor-turned-knox-trial-into-a-witch-hunt/

from “The Fatal Gift of Beauty” by Nina Burleigh. Copyright (c) 2011 by Nina Burleigh.

Mignini got encouragement and theoretical assistance in the esoteric aspects of previous investigations from an unusual source: Gabriella Carlizzi, a wealthy Roman woman and courthouse gadfly whose day job consisted of running a Catholic charity that worked with prisoners. Carlizzi, who died of cancer in 2010, was, like Mignini, a serious practicing Catholic herself who had dedicated her life to exposing and fighting satanic sects.
Before her death, Carlizzi operated out of a home office in a spacious apartment on one of the most ancient roads out of Rome, replete with white grand piano, bronze statuary and fluffy lap dog. She made herself up in what Americans might recognize as high Staten Island style, with designer eyeglasses, lip liner and ample tanned cleavage on display. Childhood polio had left her with a limp and a dedication to art, literature and a form of Christian spirituality that recognizes agents of Satan in an astonishing array of modern-day organizations and societies.
One of Carlizzi’s primary obsessions were the Masons.
There are 24 Masonic lodges in Perugia, making it Italy’s per-capita center of Masonic activity. Perugians believe that members of those lodges secretly control most aspects of banking, business and administration in their community.

 

[Machiavelli]

riti... that is a word Micheli uses. What does that word mean, Mach?

1. Micheli is not Mignini.
2. "rito/i" means a lot of things. It's a more comon word in Italian than English, used to mean more things than the English "rite"/"ritual".

It means "rite", but it also means "procedure" or "practice". For example: the abbreviated trial, like the Guede trial presieded over by Micheli, is called in Italian "rito abbreviato". (sc MOTIVATIONS quoting Hellmann: "dal momento che il giudizio che ha riguardato il Guede e stato celebrato con il rito abbreviato") (obviously here you would translate "rito" with ="procedure").
You find the word again at p. 59:
"Non può portare ad opinare diversamente il fatto che le violazioni al codice di rito pacificamente consumate (per stessa ammissione della difesa Sollecito) sarebbero incorse su impulso del rappresentante della pubblica accusa".
If you refer to customs, things usually done or repeated, the translation may be "practice", or the expression is translated with an adjective (such as "usual", or "required", or "due" etc.). On a birthady you may say "auguri di rito" (the usual/due birthday wishes); when you meet a person "saluti/conversazioni di rito" (the usual/due greetings/conversation); "frasi di rito"= "common phrases"; "documenti di rito" would be "required documents".
Outside colloqualism, rito/i is still rather common; for example the Tango (a dance) due to its precise style can be referred to as rito as in this book http://www.ibs.it/code/9788888475387/de-marchi-lucia/tango-venezia-espressioni.html.
Or intended as just "custom", "traditional habit", "practice", it may be just used to address parts of the culture life such as eating food, like in this book: http://sellerio.it/it/catalogo/Cibo-Rito-Gesto-Parola-Alimentazione-Tradizionale/Grimaldi/5260 .
Can be referred to holidays. Children holidays at the seaside is called "rito" fby this newspaper: http://www.ilgiornale.it/news/interni/e-i-bambini-dellera-internet-torna-rito-delle-vacanze-941236.html; it means obviously a precise "habit". A usual holiday habit "interrupted", is described by this article: http://corrieredelveneto.corriere.it/veneto/notizie/cronaca/2013/31-agosto-2013/vacanze-estive-la-madre-rito-interrotto-la-nomina-2222846203627.shtml.
This mother writing on a forum calls parenting techniques are "riti": (repeated actions, habitual events)http://www.nostrofiglio.it/forum/nanna-106/rito-della-nanna-vacanza-15090/
A habit to make your child sleep: rito della buonanotte (good night practice): http://www.momentimagici.com/consigli/sonno-32/i_primi_sogni-65/il_rito_della_buonanotte.-67.html

Anyway, the meaning of "rito" has the same semantic basis of the English word so the nucleus of its use is similar, the whole use is a bit wider but the word is similar.
Magic/Pagan rites and rituals - that may be partly superimposed to the concept of "holiday" - do exist in Italy. This article for example, tends to use the word meaning both the holiday event and the magical rituals through the town (Nights of Magic, in a Southern Italian village) http://www.basilicatavacanze.com/riti-e-spiritualita-nelle-notti-della-magia-ad-albano-di-lucania-pz/

This is what the word means, but pay attention, Mignini doesn't use it.
I read elsewhere reported that Mignini (maybe in a court reply) also defined the "festino" as "rito casalingo" (house-made-rite), but this is was reported within inverted commas and it is almost an oximore ("rito" and "casalingo" tend to be opposites, "rito" meaning precise, due, exact, predictable and some established practice; "casalingo" meaning imprecise, gross, casual, clumsy and impractical, non-established and house-made).
This is the only context in which the Italian press reported the word "rito" as being used by the prosecution (that would be, obvious, a slightly ironical context), however I never found this word in the trial papers.

 

[Bill Williams]

1. Micheli is not Mignini.
2. "rito/i" means a lot of things. It's a more comon word in Italian than English, used to mean more things than the English "rite"/"ritual".

It means "rite", but it also means "procedure" or "practice". For example: the abbreviated trial, like the Guede trial presieded over by Micheli, is called in Italian "rito abbreviato". (sc MOTIVATIONS quoting Hellmann: "dal momento che il giudizio che ha riguardato il Guede e stato celebrato con il rito abbreviato") (obviously here you would translate "rito" with ="procedure").
You find the word again at p. 59:
"Non può portare ad opinare diversamente il fatto che le violazioni al codice di rito pacificamente consumate (per stessa ammissione della difesa Sollecito) sarebbero incorse su impulso del rappresentante della pubblica accusa".
If you refer to customs, things usually done or repeated, the translation may be "practice", or the expression is translated with an adjective (such as "usual", or "required", or "due" etc.). On a birthady you may say "auguri di rito" (the usual/due birthday wishes); when you meet a person "saluti/conversazioni di rito" (the usual/due greetings/conversation); "frasi di rito"= "common phrases"; "documenti di rito" would be "required documents".
Outside colloqualism, rito/i is still rather common; for example the Tango (a dance) due to its precise style can be referred to as rito as in this book http://www.ibs.it/code/9788888475387/de-marchi-lucia/tango-venezia-espressioni.html.
Or intended as just "custom", "traditional habit", "practice", it may be just used to address parts of the culture life such as eating food, like in this book: http://sellerio.it/it/catalogo/Cibo-Rito-Gesto-Parola-Alimentazione-Tradizionale/Grimaldi/5260 .
Can be referred to holidays. Children holidays at the seaside is called "rito" fby this newspaper: http://www.ilgiornale.it/news/interni/e-i-bambini-dellera-internet-torna-rito-delle-vacanze-941236.html; it means obviously a precise "habit". A usual holiday habit "interrupted", is described by this article: http://corrieredelveneto.corriere.it/veneto/notizie/cronaca/2013/31-agosto-2013/vacanze-estive-la-madre-rito-interrotto-la-nomina-2222846203627.shtml.
This mother writing on a forum calls parenting techniques are "riti": (repeated actions, habitual events)http://www.nostrofiglio.it/forum/nanna-106/rito-della-nanna-vacanza-15090/
A habit to make your child sleep: rito della buonanotte (good night practice): http://www.momentimagici.com/consigli/sonno-32/i_primi_sogni-65/il_rito_della_buonanotte.-67.html

Anyway, the meaning of "rito" has the same semantic basis of the English word so the nucleus of its use is similar, the whole use is a bit wider but the word is similar.
Magic/Pagan rites and rituals - that may be partly superimposed to the concept of "holiday" - do exist in Italy. This article for example, tends to use the word meaning both the holiday event and the magical rituals through the town (Nights of Magic, in a Southern Italian village) http://www.basilicatavacanze.com/riti-e-spiritualita-nelle-notti-della-magia-ad-albano-di-lucania-pz/

This is what the word means, but pay attention, Mignini doesn't use it.
I read elsewhere reported that Mignini (maybe in a court reply) also defined the "festino" as "rito casalingo" (house-made-rite), but this is was reported within inverted commas and it is almost an oximore ("rito" and "casalingo" tend to be opposites, "rito" meaning precise, due, exact, predictable and some established practice; "casalingo" meaning imprecise, gross, casual, clumsy and impractical, non-established and house-made).
This is the only context in which the Italian press reported the word "rito" as being used by the prosecution (that would be, obvious, a slightly ironical context), however I never found this word in the trial papers.

What is incredible here is how (and why) Machiavelli switches gears on this issue. He goes on some grand parsing of word meaning - all the while trying to get Mr. Mignini off the hook for something......

........ that caused his colleague, Manuela Comodi, to threaten to quit the case if he went to trial with the theory.

Why is Machiavelli and Mignini so desperate to shed themselves from something that is obvious? Why not just call RoseM a liar like he does (usually) and be done with it?

And he simply slips by mention of Gabriella Carlizzi as if bringing her up is too much.....