Continuation Part Six: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[Bill Williams]

No I don't think it's personal at all. I think it is part of his character. Grinder is a smart guy who seemingly only thinks with his head and never his heart. He dissects the case as well as anything else. He's the guy who corrects everything and everyone. I think I know, because to a certain degree, I think that is me as well. Or at least it use to be. He is picky, he is ultra critical of Amanda and Raffaele even though he doesn't believe in their guilt. I've been very critical of Grinder's line regarding Amanda because I think his expectations and standards are not really fair. I'm sure he'd disagree with my assessment, but that is to be expected. Grinder is a good guy, but he's also a grumpy gus.

My best kept secret is that I like him. Yet he seems to want to mark out a visible, completely neutral position, and seems to need to say bad things about people on both sides so he can claim not to have imbibed of anyone's koolade. His marking off of a "middle of the road" position sometimes, to my way of thinking, makes him say harsh things that he may not actually mean. Things like, "her little book club".

All that is just so unnecessary.

 

[acbytesla]

The University of Oregon was listed as among the top 50 programs in journalism in one such list. Go Ducks!

That's fine...but the Ducks SUCK. Down with NIKE U!!!

 

[acbytesla]

My best kept secret is that I like him. Yet he seems to want to mark out a visible, completely neutral position, and seems to need to say bad things about people on both sides so he can claim not to have imbibed of anyone's koolade. His marking off of a "middle of the road" position sometimes, to my way of thinking, makes him say harsh things that he may not actually mean. Things like, "her little book club".

All that is just so unnecessary.

I think that is an accurate assessment.

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

I don't consider not appreciating CD as a grump-o-meter. You joined this a little to fully appreciate criticism of CD.

Cynics are usually grumpy



CD has a some masters but little to no experience. Barbie went to S. Dakota St. IIRC and didn't graduate but did have a long, if not illustrious, writing history.

She made provide more information to insiders but that isn't what I call transparent.

I think it would be useful to know when and how long she was in Perugia. I would like to know who her main sources were and are. I'd like to know how much she relied on Frank as a source. I'd to know if she reads the transcripts in the original Italian. And I don't want to ask her. I want it to be transparent.

She apparently implies she received a masters from the U of Oregon in 1976 but I think it is poorly written Wiki. The U of Oregon is a mediocre to lousy school but so what. Her writing history for beginning in 1976 is lame. I'll bet she didn't sell her book on that resume but rather Seattle connections.

Here's her own about me intro:

Candace Dempsey is the award-winning Italian-American author of the MURDER IN ITALY: The Shocking Slaying of a British Student, the Accused American Girl, and an International Scandal. (Penguin: Berkley Books, 2010). It's about the brutal slaying of British student Merdith Kercher in Italy and her Amanda Knox, her accused American roommate. Candace's editor is Shannon Jamieson Vazquez. She is represented by the Andrew Stuart Agency in New York.

Really, she puts her agent and editor in her first paragraph of who she is?

Why are you so worked up about Candace?

Candace started blogging about this case from the very beginning, in November 2007. She didn't know whether Amanda was guilty or innocent. But she saw how improbable the accusation was. Her message was, don't assume guilt. Don't assume the cops are right on this.

At that time, nobody else was taking that line publicly. The media was having a field day presenting Amanda as a whacked-out psychopath, and the public was sucking it up without question. Candace didn't suck it up. I think she deserves a lot of credit for that.

As for her book, she played by the rules, which include promoting a book so people will buy and read it. What is wrong with that? Candace worked with Berkley, which understands the market and the expectations of readers, but is a cut above most true crime publishers. They tend to work with local reporters who get in on the ground floor with a particular case, and have cultivated primary sources, as opposed to serial true-crime writers who come in late and crank out books from police reports. As someone who reads crime books and is intimately familiar with the facts of Amanda's case, I think Candace did an excellent job while meeting the constraints of the genre.

 

[CoulsdonUK]

My best kept secret is that I like him. Yet he seems to want to mark out a visible, completely neutral position, and seems to need to say bad things about people on both sides so he can claim not to have imbibed of anyone's koolade. His marking off of a "middle of the road" position sometimes, to my way of thinking, makes him say harsh things that he may not actually mean. Things like, "her little book club".

All that is just so unnecessary.

Grinder comes across as having a balanced view, sure he believes that Raffaele and Amanda are innocent, but he appears objective to me about side issue like Candace Dempsey and others, sorry Grinder.

 

[HumanityBlues]

Wow, one and half pages of psychoanalyzing Grinder. This is really relevant and productive.

 

[acbytesla]

Wow, one and half pages of psychoanalyzing Grinder. This is really relevant and productive.

Out of curiosity Humanity, in the thousands of pages in this thread, how many do you actually think are productive???

 

[Mary_H]

<snip>CD has a some masters but little to no experience. Barbie went to S. Dakota St. IIRC and didn't graduate but did have a long, if not illustrious, writing history.

Some people can write without going to school. Some people can go to school and never figure out how to write.

She made provide more information to insiders but that isn't what I call transparent.

I think it would be useful to know when and how long she was in Perugia. I would like to know who her main sources were and are. I'd like to know how much she relied on Frank as a source. I'd to know if she reads the transcripts in the original Italian. And I don't want to ask her. I want it to be transparent.

It was transparent when it was happening. She reported her movements in her blog. All the information is still there.

Really, she puts her agent and editor in her first paragraph of who she is?

That is contact information.

 

[Mary_H]

The difference here is between a 'Halloween Sect-like¹ Ritualistic Murder'² and a 'Satanic Murder.'³ Machiavelli will tell you the former, there's other sources which list the latter but my guess is they just jumped to that conclusion (what's the difference really?) being as Mignini had proposed a satanic cult was responsible for the Monster of Florence murders and the death of Dr. Narducci. He's still fighting that one, there was an update in the Andrea Vogt article posted recently. I am willing to accept the possibility that those reports erred and Mignini didn't propose a satanic murder, but instead this time chose to theorize it was a ritualistic sect-like Halloween murder. I tend to find it is a distinction without a difference but it's very important to some people apparently.

Excellent point. And given that the PGP have been harping on this issue for months if not years, I find it suspicious that Mignini himself is just now going public with it. Mignini does strike me as the kind of person to whom it is easy to feed information intended to get him stirred up. His ego makes him very vulnerable to flattery, that is, "support" from people who want him to further their cause.

 

[Machiavelli]

.... and look what's happened so far.

There's been two days' of hearings, one for only 1 1/2 hours. The second day concerned the Mafia guy, who the ISC said was part of the reason why Hellmann's acquittals needed to be set aside. The mafia guy needed more probing, because Hellmann's dismissal of him somehow failed to contribute to the "osmotic" evaluation of the horrible Kercher murder.

What happened? In 90 minutes he/she said exactly what he'd told previous courts. His brother had done the horrible deed during a botched robbery, and (oh by the way) the Sollecito's did not pay him to say this.

And there's no reason in the world advantageous to himself why he would say this.

Is he telling the truth? I haven't a clue.....

...... but cycle back to what's really real here. The ISC quashed acquittals partly on the basis of this mafia guy. He told a story, he's sticking to it, that's it.

What does Machiavelli and Mignini do in the meantime? Mignini publishes a letter to the editor denying he'd EVER suggested a Satanic rite as a motive for this crime. Machiavelli translates it for a hate website. Mignini tells other lies - now it's not a sex game gone wrong, as acc. to the ISC is another reason to osmotically set aside the acquittals, Mignini now claims it was a "sex-hazing"?

Aside from the fact that there's no evidence, nothing, zero, zilch, niente, nada..... nothing to even suggest it.... and Mignini even gets into the letter that Meredith feared the rent money was missing.... again, there's no evidence, nothing, zero, zilch, niente, nada..... nothing to even suggest it.... (save for Rudy Guede on that one....)

And Machiavelli joins in by translating it for an English language hate site in North America.

But back to the ISC. Why did not the ISC order retesting of the break-in. Why did it take Channel 5 in England to show, at the very window in question, that it was a slam dunk to break-in through that window? Why did the ISC not say that the proper osmotic understanding of why this was a lone killer begins with the fact that the break-in was doable, rather than what Mignini will write in a second letter?

Because Mignini will never write about something to do with this case that is actually testable.

Machiavelli will not translate it, and Andrea Vogt will not report it.

Did you ever suspect that the guilter universe was this small? The only question was how on earth did Mignini get the ear of the ISC to evaluate all the wrong things? Like the mafia guy? The trial has been underway for a week now, and what have we learned....

You recall two events: a hearing in a Florence Appeal court on the Meredith trial, and a letter written by Mignini published by Corriere Fiorentino.
You forget a third event: Spezi's defamatory article published by the Corriere Fiorentino, in which Spezi repeats his (false) narrative about Mignini's alleged satanic scenario and attempts to use the narrative he developed for Knox-Sollecito's trial as a ploy to attempt to defend himself in the public opinion in his own criminal case.

 

[Grinder]

Normally, I'd discount anyone for being a Duck. And as much as I'd like to say that they don't provide a substantial education, I really can't (and believe me I'd like to) I hate Oregon more than any school in the PAC-12. It's really not a bad school at all.

I have actually read Candace's book. Have you? You use to say that you didn't read any of the books, so I'm not sure how you can really offer a valid opinion about any of these author's prose.

Oregon on the most recent rating out was 133rd and the UW was 9th. I've suggested that the NCAA only allow schools in the top 100 compete at the top level

After reading her blog for some time I saw no reason to read her book. I offer an opinion on the genre and have read, as I said earlier, many quoted parts and some previews.

 

[Grinder]

AcByTesla.... you took the words right out of my mouth. I can only speculate, but Grinder seems to go out of his way to diss people just for the sake of dissing them. Look how he uses the "her little book club" term. Talk about dismissive.

To my untrained ears Grinders beef sounds personal. But that's just me.

It is just you. Never met her. Never had any direct or indirect contact. I would let this drop but will reply. I think she is insipid, writes poorly and is a phony. I think she honed in on making money on this as soon as possible and never misses a shot to promote in the most self-serving manner. Anybody know what book award she won?

 

[Machiavelli]

Have you changed your mind about Article 192, Mach?

Absolutely not.
Paragraph 2 of art. 192 is:

2. L'esistenza di un fatto non può essere desunta da indizia meno che questi siano gravi, precisi e concordanti

There is NO pre-requisite demand for single pieces of circumstantial evidence in art. 192.

The quality of precision and seriousness, belonging to a single piece of circumstantial evidence, they allow the judge to rely on such element (in combination with some other) to deduce a fact (such as guilt). While the quality of convergence is only about the relationship between two pieces of evidence (it means the serious and precise elements should point in the same direction).

 

[Grinder]

The University of Oregon was listed as among the top 50 programs in journalism in one such list. Go Ducks!

You really don't know how offensive you are

Nobody from Washington goes to Oregon unless they couldn't get into Lewis and Clark. The only thing Eugene has over Pullman is that it is on I-5 for a faster getaway.

Btw you link goes to one man's opinion.

The list is NOT meant to be all-inclusive or objective. It is based on nothing more than my personal knowledge of various schools’ and colleges’ reputations, faculty, affiliated student media, classes, and feedback I’ve received in spurts from students and (mostly younger) alums.

Sorry but I was wrong the UW was 13th in this

 

[Grinder]

That's fine...but the Ducks SUCK. Down with NIKE U!!!

now does that look grumpy?

Don't agitate me after about 4 pm Sat unless there is a god.

 

[Grinder]

You recall two events: a hearing in a Florence Appeal court on the Meredith trial, and a letter written by Mignini published by Corriere Fiorentino.
You forget a third event: Spezi's defamatory article published by the Corriere Fiorentino, in which Spezi repeats his (false) narrative about Mignini's alleged satanic scenario and attempts to use the narrative he developed for Knox-Sollecito's trial as a ploy to attempt to defend himself in the public opinion in his own criminal case.

Isn't that in Mignini whiny little letter?

 

[RoseMontague]

You recall two events: a hearing in a Florence Appeal court on the Meredith trial, and a letter written by Mignini published by Corriere Fiorentino.
You forget a third event: Spezi's defamatory article published by the Corriere Fiorentino, in which Spezi repeats his (false) narrative about Mignini's alleged satanic scenario and attempts to use the narrative he developed for Knox-Sollecito's trial as a ploy to attempt to defend himself in the public opinion in his own criminal case.

I am rooting for Spezi. Go Spezi!!! Migi's letter sounds like it was written by an arrogant, lying, cheating, criminal snob. Probably because it was.

 

[acbytesla]

Oregon on the most recent rating out was 133rd and the UW was 9th. I've suggested that the NCAA only allow schools in the top 100 compete at the top level
After reading her blog for some time I saw no reason to read her book. I offer an opinion on the genre and have read, as I said earlier, many quoted parts and some previews.

On what were they rated?? I went to school at both a cc and the U and I can frankly tell you that my first year's education at the CC was actually better than at the U. (by far) more personal attention. (virtually none at the U until my senior year). Chris just pointed out that U of O was in the top 50 in journalism.

I think you have to be very specific to the actual education received. The U is one of the foremost schools in Aerospace Engineering, Genetic Sciences but I'm not really sure how it rates when it comes to writing and journalism.

I also think Mary's point is dead on, that the ability to write well probably has less to do with one's college education and more to do with one's own personal prowess.

 

[acbytesla]

You really don't know how offensive you are

Nobody from Washington goes to Oregon unless they couldn't get into Lewis and Clark. The only thing Eugene has over Pullman is that it is on I-5 for a faster getaway.

Btw you link goes to one man's opinion.

The list is NOT meant to be all-inclusive or objective. It is based on nothing more than my personal knowledge of various schools’ and colleges’ reputations, faculty, affiliated student media, classes, and feedback I’ve received in spurts from students and (mostly younger) alums.

Sorry but I was wrong the UW was 13th in this

Damn you Grinder, you can't put me on this side of this argument... At least not this week. Damn the Ducks. I'm hoping the Dawgs crush them this week.

 

[Machiavelli]

The difference here is between a 'Halloween Sect-like¹ Ritualistic Murder'² and a 'Satanic Murder.'³ Machiavelli will tell you the former, there's other sources which list the latter but my guess is they just jumped to that conclusion (what's the difference really?) being as Mignini had proposed a satanic cult was responsible for the Monster of Florence murders and the death of Dr. Narducci. He's still fighting that one, there was an update in the Andrea Vogt article posted recently. I am willing to accept the possibility that those reports erred and Mignini didn't propose a satanic murder, but instead this time chose to theorize it was a ritualistic sect-like Halloween murder. I tend to find it is a distinction without a difference but it's very important to some people apparently.

But in fact, Mignini never proposed any 'ritualistic' nor any 'Halloween-sect-like' scenario for the Meredith murder. There may be well erroneous sources; but none of these sources was in the courtroom, because the trial was hold behind closed doors; and in fact all these sources are British newspapers that seem to be relying on (as they interpret it) a source at La Repubblica, a journalist who himself explicitly states that he is reporting second-hand comments from Il Giornale dell'Umbria.
But when you look at the trial transcripts, there is nothing alike.

As for the Narducci case, I don't know first-hand because I've never read the documents, but I've never heard about a Satanic scenario involving that.

There has been a discussion about satanic scenarios during the MoF trials in Florence, because there were witnesses who brought that in and also in the investigation elments were found suggesting links with with Satanism, they are in the records but they plaid no role in the trials so far.
But I point out that the MoF case is not the Narducci case; Mignini had nothing to do with the MoF investigation and trials.

There was some element linking to Satanism that enetered also the Narduci case, because the Narducci case resulted from the merging of more than one case; the merge was requested by Florence, it was not Mignini's idea. One of the three original investigations (later merged into one) was a case of anonimous phone stalking against a woman in Perugia, which went on for years, by unknown people who called from telephone boxes in Tuscany mentioning Narducci's 'murder' together with 'sexual' and 'satanic' themes. Apart from this, which was obviously an original theme 'intrinsic' to the case, there has never been any 'satanic' scenario in the Narducci investigation.
A 'ritualistic' or sect-like scenario - albeit never formally proposed - is instead something much closer to what investigators hypothesized in the end. The MoF murders apparently were committed with the purpose of collecting fetishes, and such fetishes may have had some ritual or 'magical' use. Suspicions focused on Calamandrei's chemistry and his informal 'clinics', and the people who secretely revolved around those clinics; that thread was investigated independently by Florentine prosecutors. This is anyway only a background, the environment in which the Narducci murder could have developed. The Narducci case was a murder, the motive must have been typical of murders; he wasn't killed in any satanic scenario. He was killed by an accomplice just because he was about to be caught by the police.