Nordic countries may finally ban circumcision.

[mijopaalmc]

1/2 of 1.5 Billion Muslims are circumcised. The 2nd largest religion in the world and hardly a minority religious practice. The Jews who also practice circumcision are a religious minority but somehow everyone is hung up on the Jews and forget the Muslims. Maybe Allah was too stoned with Kwat to think about circumcision, but for sure was a pedophile.

It's always hilarious to see circumcision opponents fall all over themselves saying "Oh, no, our opposition to circumcision is not anti-Jewish or anti-Muslim" and to have them explicitly and viciously attack Judaism and Islam for practicing ritual circumcision. It really doesn't matter how many Jews or Muslims practice circumcision; the very same documents cited in support of the legal proscriptions against circumcision based of "bodily integrity" grant the religious wide latitude to practice their religions. Blithely dismissing the legal proscription of circumcision as disproportionately affecting historically persecuted religious minorities due to the importance of "bodily integrity" completely disregards the fact that the foundational legal documents contain a fundamental conflict between the rights of the individual and the rights of the community and that both are considered fundamental.

 

[Loss Leader]

Sorry if I don't have an appreciation why circumcision would be so central to being Jewish. The whole concept that a bodily mutilation would be central to your religion sounds bizarre to me. And it says there first in Genesis, "God created mankind in his own image", but then he decided it was not good enough?

So, you don't know. You have no idea what role circumcision plays in the identity of the Jewish people. But if you ran the zoo, things would be different. Pardon me if I don't trust you to make determinations about what's best for Jews.

 

[Rolfe]

You're also OK with allowing freedom of religion to sects which require human sacrifice? It's a legitimate question. How far are you prepared to allow this argument to go?

Rolfe.

 

[spin0]

While true these Nordic Countries are nearly bereft of Jews (circumcision helped the Nazi and their collaborators identify Jews)

Is your source The Monty Python History of Iceland, Norway, Finland, Denmark and Sweden?

 

[Rat]

It's always hilarious to see circumcision opponents fall all over themselves saying "Oh, no, our opposition to circumcision is not anti-Jewish or anti-Muslim" and to have them explicitly and viciously attack Judaism and Islam for practicing ritual circumcision. It really doesn't matter how many Jews or Muslims practice circumcision; the very same documents cited in support of the legal proscriptions against circumcision based of "bodily integrity" grant the religious wide latitude to practice their religions. Blithely dismissing the legal proscription of circumcision as disproportionately affecting historically persecuted religious minorities due to the importance of "bodily integrity" completely disregards the fact that the foundational legal documents contain a fundamental conflict between the rights of the individual and the rights of the community and that both are considered fundamental.

Which foundational legal documents do you mean here?

And to the earlier point, my opposition is to circumcision, not to Judaism or Islam. That they both practice it is incidental. I have not myself attacked (viciously or otherwise) Judaism or Islam in this regard, and it would take someone truly demented to say that I had (and therefore I assume the above was not pointed at me).

 

[mijopaalmc]

You're also OK with allowing freedom of religion to sects which require human sacrifice? It's a legitimate question. How far are you prepared to allow this argument to go?

Rolfe.

Do you support legalized homosexuality? Why stop there, why not legalize raping infants?

 

[Tsukasa Buddha]

So, you don't know. You have no idea what role circumcision plays in the identity of the Jewish people. But if you ran the zoo, things would be different. Pardon me if I don't trust you to make determinations about what's best for Jews.

I do not trust you to make determinations for child rights if you want to bind them to your religion.

 

[Rat]

Pardon me if I don't trust you to make determinations about what's best for Jews.

That is grossly unfair. There was no claim to know "what's best for Jews."

 

[ddt]

If FSMism had

1. a history of being a minority religion is a place where the majority religion(s) actively persecuted FSMism
2. modernity had made overt anti-FSMism socially unacceptable
3. attacking FSMism was still possible by asserting that the practices FSMists had used to set themselves apart from other religions and therefore formed an integral part of the FSMist identity

you might actually have a valid point with respect to statutorily proscribing circumcision. However, you're blithely ignoring the historical context of European (and European-derived) Christian persecution of Judaism and Islam--and how that may be legally effected now that overt anti-Semitism and Islamophobia are no longer socially acceptable--to make a extremely superficial rhetorical point. FSMism is a "religion" that was expressly established by its proponents to parody fundamentalist Christianity, and trying to make analogies between hypothetical (and undocumented) FSMist practices and real (and documented) Jewish and Muslim practices is profoundly ahistorical and utterly dishonest. FSMism is neither a religious belief system nor an ethno-cultural identity; it is a trope expressly promulgated by atheists to mock religion, making any practice claimed a central to FSMism highly suspect as expression of religiosity.

Why not actually consider the persecution real, historical religions and legal method used to effect it legally, instead of relying on the hypothetical of a farce "religion" created expressly for demonstrating the absurdity of religion itself?

Way to miss the point. If someone now came up with a new religion which had as requirement some bodily mutilation, it would not be accepted. The reason you, and others, want to make an exception for Judaism and for Islam is purely an appeal to tradition.

For a well-known analogy, see what happened with Mormonism and polygamy. They were heavily criticized for it, because polygamy (or more accurately: polygyny) was against the mores of the time. And they dropped polygyny so that Utah could become a state of the USA.

 

[mijopaalmc]

That is grossly unfair. There was no claim to know "what's best for Jews."

Seems like outlawing circumcision is sending a rather explicit message that state knows better how to raise the children of Jews than the Jew know themselves.

 

[Rat]

Do you support legalized homosexuality? Why stop there, why not legalize raping infants?

I support consensual homosexual acts and whatnot. You seem to have missed something about consent, which seems either disingenuous or ignorant.

 

[Tsukasa Buddha]

Do you support legalized homosexuality? Why stop there, why not legalize raping infants?

So what is the line that a violation needs to cross in order for religion to not be a get out of jail free card? Genital nicking?

 

[Rat]

Seems like outlawing circumcision is sending a rather explicit message that state knows better how to raise the children of Jews than the Jew know themselves.

Proposed laws about circumcision are not aimed at Jews, so cannot send such a message.

 

[Rolfe]

Do you support legalized homosexuality? Why stop there, why not legalize raping infants?

I was the one asking the question. If genital mutilation of newborns is OK because it's "an essential part of a religion", how far does this go? Infant rape? Human sacrifice?

Rolfe.

 

[mijopaalmc]

So what is the line that a violation needs to cross in order for religion to not be a get out of jail free card? Genital nicking?

Do you support sticking children with needles? Or forcing them to wear an apparatus that wrenches their teeth around in their jaws?

 

[ddt]

Which foundational legal documents do you mean here?

And to the earlier point, my opposition is to circumcision, not to Judaism or Islam. That they both practice it is incidental. I have not myself attacked (viciously or otherwise) Judaism or Islam in this regard, and it would take someone truly demented to say that I had (and therefore I assume the above was not pointed at me).

No, but the very fact that you oppose circumcision makes you an anti-semite in mijopaalmc's dictionary. In the previous thread, he accused at least Rolfe, Oystein and me of being anti-semite, IIRC.

Do you support legalized homosexuality? Why stop there, why not legalize raping infants?

Oh, and homosexuality = paedophilia? Oh my boy, I hope you're trolling.

 

[mijopaalmc]

I was the one asking the question. If genital mutilation of newborns is OK because it's "an essential part of a religion", how far does this go? Infant rape? Human sacrifice?

Rolfe.

You are pretty clearly not interested in discussing this in any rational fashion, as your ignorance of Jewish theology, continual references to "genital mutilation" and dishonest equation of circumcision with human sacrifice attest.

 

[mijopaalmc]

Oh, and homosexuality = paedophilia? Oh my boy, I hope you're trolling.

I was pointing the false analogy between circumcision and human sacrifice. The fact that circumcision opponents consider the analogy appropriate indicates they are not in the least interested in understanding the arguments for religious freedom.

 

[Rat]

Do you support sticking children with needles? Or forcing them to wear an apparatus that wrenches their teeth around in their jaws?

For myself, if it fulfils a genuine medical benefit, then generally yes. If it's purely cosmetic, it depends. Is this where you bring up cleft palates?

 

[Rat]

You are pretty clearly not interested in discussing this in any rational fashion, as your ignorance of Jewish theology, continual references to "genital mutilation" and dishonest equation of circumcision with human sacrifice attest.

Knowledge of Jewish theology is not relevant to whether circumcision is acceptable. Circumcision is indisputably genital mutilation, notwithstanding that the term has some connotations that some find unacceptable.