So why should I not be ticked off with the GOP right now?

[Peephole]

The not everyone needs or wants the "essential benefits" forced upon everyone by Obamacare. Now they have to pay more for health insurance for stuff they don't want or need.

You don't seem to understand how insurance works.

Sure, thousands of people now pay more for insurance and have less income.

Cost, however, is where things get complicated. In the non-group market -- which is where the reforms were concentrated -- premiums costs fell by 40 percent in Massachusetts even as they rose by 14 percent nationally, according to data from the insurance industry trade group AHIP. In the employer market, which did not see major reforms, costs have risen at about the national average: The increase in Massachusetts has been 21 percent, while the increase in the rest of the country has been 21 percent.

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezra-klein/2010/07/the_massachusetts_plan_is_work.html

What is your alternative by the way?

 

[marplots]

The correct figure is 80. The number of Republicans who signed a letter to Speaker John Boehner back in August demanding that Affordable Care Act be defunded as a condition for passing any appropriations bill.

It works because Speaker Boehner has decided that he will not allow a vote on any bill that requires Democratic help to pass. If a bill doesn't have 218 Republican votes, no vote will be allowed.

ETA: At least 17 Republicans have said they would vote for a clean Continuing Resolution if a vote was held today. Combined with the Democrats in the House, that would be enough to pass. The impediment is Speaker Boehner.

Thank you. That makes more sense than the "30 tea-party whackos" holding the government hostage.

 

[Neally]

And I asked if some of those would go below the poverty line because of it, to which you replied "some do". I want to know if I have understood you correctly and you are saying that the ACA has brought people below the poverty line, in which case I am asking you for a cite.

You did not specifically say "because of it". I'm not claiming that thousands are driven into poverty because of Obamacare.

You're really bad at this analogy thing, aren't you? Everyone drives, few people can afford to self insure. But obviously no one will ever actually need insurance.

All insurance has but one purpose, to mitigate unacceptable financial risk. If someone is willing to take the risk, or has enough funds that a loss won't jeopardize their financial condition, they don't need insurance. For others, it's a valuable tool. In the long run, in aggregate, insurance is a losing proposition for the insured and a winning proposition for the insurance company.

You don't seem to understand how insurance works.

I understand it very well thank you. See the above.

No, I looked at that site, and the lowest plan in my zip code was for $149 and had a whopping $10,000 deductible and only covered 50% beyond that. In other words, it's good if I get hit by a bus but that's it. And it won't cover my wife.

So wasn't able to find your magic $73 policy. But go ahead and give us more details. Here's what we need, at a minimum, to compare plans.

1. Zip code you used to price the plan.
2. Age you inputted.
3. Deductible of the plan.
4. Percentage of additional costs.
5. Name of insurer.
6. Total monthly premium.

Should be easy, since you gave us the $73 dollar price, right?

I gave you all the parameters needed to search on ehealthinsurance.com less the zip. Try 97034 with the other parameters and you'll get $73 as the lowest cost plan. Do you dispute the fact that there are thousands of people that will be forced to pay more for insurance with Obamacare?

 

[Unabogie]

You did not specifically say "because of it". I'm not claiming that thousands are driven into poverty because of Obamacare.

All insurance has but one purpose, to mitigate unacceptable financial risk. If someone is willing to take the risk, or has enough funds that a loss won't jeopardize their financial condition, they don't need insurance. For others, it's a valuable tool. In the long run, in aggregate, insurance is a losing proposition for the insured and a winning proposition for the insurance company.

I understand it very well thank you. See the above.



I gave you all the parameters needed to search on ehealthinsurance.com less the zip. Try 97034 with the other parameters and you'll get $73 as the lowest cost plan. Do you dispute the fact that there are thousands of people that will be forced to pay more for insurance with Obamacare?

I asked for six details. Please provide them so we can compare. It should be easy since you claim to have already done the search.

 

[Neally]

I asked for six details. Please provide them so we can compare. It should be easy since you claim to have already done the search.

I gave you all the parameters needed to search on ehealthinsurance.com less the zip. Try 97034 with the other parameters and you'll get $73 as the lowest cost plan. Do you dispute the fact that there are thousands of people that will be forced to pay more for insurance with Obamacare?

 

[Unabogie]

I gave you all the parameters needed to search on ehealthinsurance.com less the zip. Try 97034 with the other parameters and you'll get $73 as the lowest cost plan. Do you dispute the fact that there are thousands of people that will be forced to pay more for insurance with Obamacare?

I want to know the following elements so everyone here can tell what kind of plan you're talking about. Premium cost is only part of the issue. But on that front, my costs are going way down. But you're saying premiums are going up by 300%, remember? So it's up to you to back that up. It should be easy, peasy. You've already done the search, just paste the results here:

1. Zip code you used to price the plan.
2. Age you inputted.
3. Deductible of the plan.
4. Percentage of additional costs.
5. Name of insurer.
6. Total monthly premium.

 

[elbe]

Deleted. Don't care. I don't want to get in an argument against talking points.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

NEALLY, people like Travis and I just want a chance to participate. If you have better solution then the heritage plan please go to the thread I started about the GOP plan for healthcare and contribute. Otherwise your only plan is "you got yours so screw Travis and biscuit".

Of course this plan ignores that you will eventually pay for Travis and I and under the ACA Travis and I get the opportunity to pay for ourselves and others. There are no losers. Some people will get expanded coverage and pay more some will get expanded coverage and pay less and some will get coverage and pay. Who is losing?

The GOP has a health care plan? Is it called the status quo?

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

No, I looked at that site, and the lowest plan in my zip code was for $149 and had a whopping $10,000 deductible and only covered 50% beyond that. In other words, it's good if I get hit by a bus but that's it. And it won't cover my wife.

So wasn't able to find your magic $73 policy. But go ahead and give us more details. Here's what we need, at a minimum, to compare plans.

1. Zip code you used to price the plan.
2. Age you inputted.
3. Deductible of the plan.
4. Percentage of additional costs.
5. Name of insurer.
6. Total monthly premium.

Should be easy, since you gave us the $73 dollar price, right?

Just out of curiosity, are you in one of the GOP states that are refusing to join the exchanges?

And if the $149 for catastrophic coverage only (going by the huge deductible) is too much for you to pay, it suggests you would qualify for a subsidy.

As for not wanting to pay for catastrophic coverage, that would mean the people paying for their insurance are covering your risk. The 36 billion in bad debt (AHA number for 2010) hospitals cost shift every year to paying customers covers your risk.

It's that last matter that people who can, but refuse to buy insurance don't include in their calculations. The GOP reverses itself in this case with the position that those freeloaders are just peachy.

 

[Neally]

I want to know the following elements so everyone here can tell what kind of plan you're talking about. Premium cost is only part of the issue. But on that front, my costs are going way down. But you're saying premiums are going up by 300%, remember? So it's up to you to back that up. It should be easy, peasy. You've already done the search, just paste the results here:

1. Zip code you used to price the plan.
2. Age you inputted.
3. Deductible of the plan.
4. Percentage of additional costs.
5. Name of insurer.
6. Total monthly premium.

What part of this do you not understand?:
CLACKAMAS, OR /Male /40yrs /Non-smoker - cheapest policy:
Pre Obamacare: $73.00
Post Obamacare: $187.64

When people get sick without insurance, and it will happen, when they get medical care it costs the rest of us money. We know that because that's what's already happening.

Do you even understand the difference between medical care and medical insurance? Here's a clue, medical care <> medical insurance. Continuing with the auto insurance analogy, car repair/maintenance <> auto insurance.

1. Not everyone needs health insurance to get health care and pay for it.
2. Not everyone needs or wants the "essential benefits" mandated by Obamacare.

The lame argument that "many people need to pay more for insurance that they don't want or need so that some people will pay less" is analogous to saying "everyone should buy motorcycle insurance so that some people will pay less."

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

You don't seem to understand how insurance works.

Cost, however, is where things get complicated. In the non-group market -- which is where the reforms were concentrated -- premiums costs fell by 40 percent in Massachusetts even as they rose by 14 percent nationally, according to data from the insurance industry trade group AHIP. In the employer market, which did not see major reforms, costs have risen at about the national average: The increase in Massachusetts has been 21 percent, while the increase in the rest of the country has been 21 percent.

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezra-klein/2010/07/the_massachusetts_plan_is_work.html

What is your alternative by the way?

I love Klein's term in that report: anecdata.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Deleted. Don't care. I don't want to get in an argument with talking points.

That is a very important point.

 

[Unabogie]

Just out of curiosity, are you in one of the GOP states that are refusing to join the exchanges?

And if the $149 for catastrophic coverage only (going by the huge deductible) is too much for you to pay, it suggests you would qualify for a subsidy.

As for not wanting to pay for catastrophic coverage, that would mean the people paying for their insurance are covering your risk. The 36 billion in bad debt (AHA number for 2010) hospitals cost shift every year to paying customers covers your risk.

It's that last matter that people who can, but refuse to buy insurance don't include in their calculations. The GOP reverses itself in this case with the position that those freeloaders are just peachy.

No, I'm in Oregon, and we're going on the CoverOregon exchange later this month. I pay for insurance through Pacific Care and do not need this plan under discussion. I was arguing with Neally who claimed that premiums were going up in Oregon by 300%. I challenged him on this, since I started buying our own insurance early this year so I had some numbers to go by. And the exchanges will be saving us 35%. Especially since my wife has a pre-existing (extremely minor) condition that made it so NO insurer would cover her and we had to get on the pricier OHIP plan. All of this is contrary to Neally's assertions so I'm asking him to back up his claim.

 

[marplots]

What part of this do you not understand?:
CLACKAMAS, OR /Male /40yrs /Non-smoker - cheapest policy:
Pre Obamacare: $73.00
Post Obamacare: $187.64

Are you comparing policy costs from 2008 with 2013? They do tend to rise over time. I don't understand what Pre and Post mean in that statement.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

....

1. Not everyone needs health insurance to get health care and pay for it.
2. Not everyone needs or wants the "essential benefits" mandated by Obamacare.

....

You could say the same thing about car insurance, but people understand why they need it.

If the people you speak of who don't want health care insurance agree to just die if they suffer a catastrophic health problem, you could make your case. But that's not an option.

Payers are paying to insure refusers. It's a fact.

 

[Unabogie]

What part of this do you not understand?:
CLACKAMAS, OR /Male /40yrs /Non-smoker - cheapest policy:
Pre Obamacare: $73.00
Post Obamacare: $187.64[/I]

I don't understand this part:

1. Zip code you used to price the plan.
2. Age you inputted.
3. Deductible of the plan.
4. Percentage of additional costs.
5. Name of insurer.
6. Total monthly premium.

Please help me understand with those six details of the plan you found. Should be the easiest thing ever since it's right in front of you.

Select all of the text. Righ click -> copy. Come back here. Right click -> paste.

Can you do that?

I'll wait.

 

[Unabogie]

Are you comparing policy costs from 2008 with 2013? They do tend to rise over time. I don't understand what Pre and Post mean in that statement.

We don't know WHAT plan he's talking about, since I already posted this here:

http://kaiserfamilyfoundation.files...remiums-and-participation-in-marketplaces.pdf

The cheapest plan on CoverOregon is not $187, it's $165. That's for a "bronze" plan. Getting the details of the mythical $73 dollar plan is proving to be impossible.

 

[marplots]

Just to throw something else into the mix, these "extra benefits" under Obamacare aren't just things they pulled out of their butt. They are the "gold standard" of preventative care, based on the best available scientific evidence.

From the US Preventative Services Task Force, who sets these things (http://www.uspreventiveservicestaskforce.org/index.html - site shut down currently, because... well, you know):

The USPSTF is an independent panel of non-Federal experts in prevention and evidence-based medicine and is composed of primary care providers (such as internists, pediatricians, family physicians, gynecologists/obstetricians, nurses, and health behavior specialists).

The USPSTF conducts scientific evidence reviews of a broad range of clinical preventive health care services (such as screening, counseling, and preventive medications) and develops recommendations for primary care clinicians and health systems. These recommendations are published in the form of "Recommendation Statements."

 

[Neally]

Are you comparing policy costs from 2008 with 2013? They do tend to rise over time. I don't understand what Pre and Post mean in that statement.

Once again ehealthinsurance.com ehealthinsurance.com ehealthinsurance.com ehealthinsurance.com ehealthinsurance.com ehealthinsurance.com. Get it?

If the people you speak of who don't want health care insurance agree to just die if they suffer a catastrophic health problem, you could make your case. But that's not an option.

Do you even know what the "essential benefits" mandated by Obamacare are?
What part of, "1. Not everyone needs health insurance to get health care and pay for it." do you not understand?

I don't understand this part:
1. Zip code you used to price the plan.
2. Age you inputted.
3. Deductible of the plan.
4. Percentage of additional costs.
5. Name of insurer.
6. Total monthly premium.

I gave you 1, 2, & 6. The rest is on the cited website. Clearly you are trolling now. Well played. You did have me going there thinking that you really didn't know the website or the provided information.

Just to throw something else into the mix, these "extra benefits" under Obamacare aren't just things they pulled out of their butt.

That doesn't change the fact that some people don't want or need them, and now are forced to pay more for their insurance because they don't have a choice.

 

[banquetbear]

We don't know WHAT plan he's talking about, since I already posted this here:

http://kaiserfamilyfoundation.files...remiums-and-participation-in-marketplaces.pdf

The cheapest plan on CoverOregon is not $187, it's $165. That's for a "bronze" plan. Getting the details of the mythical $73 dollar plan is proving to be impossible.

...I found the $73.00 plan:

Plan Type PPO
Office Visit for Primary Doctor
Find Doctors 40% Coinsurance after deductible
Office Visit for Specialist 40% Coinsurance after deductible
Coinsurance 40% after deductible
Annual Deductible Individual: $10,000
Separate Prescription Drugs Deductible Medical Plan Deductible Applies
Prescription Drugs Generic: 50% Coinsurance after deductible
Brand: 50% Coinsurance after deductible
Non-Formulary: Not Covered
Annual Out-of-Pocket Limit Individual: $15,000
Includes deductible
Lifetime Maximum Unlimited. $2 million annual max
Health Savings Account (HSA) Eligible No
Out-of-Network Coverage Yes (Details in plan brochure below)
Out-of-Country Coverage Emergency Care Only.
Rate Guarantee 12 months. View Details

www.ehealthinsurance.com/ehi/ifp/plan-details?planKey=97102600:241&productLine=IFP

As a New Zealander who never has to worry about these things I have no idea what any of it means. They do make it hard for you guys to stay alive and healthy don't they!