• Security incident: ISF was recently accessed by intruders. Please change your password, and change it anywhere else you used it. Read more

Split Thread Does compulsory schooling equate to slavery? (Split from: "Liberal Fallacies" thread)

That would work great in the private sector. Employees free to come and go as they please and do what is ever they feel productive. Imagine a world where employers did not have the force to fire employees and the employees could do whatever they wanted.

Sounds like pure and unadulterated libertarian to me. Freedom of the proletariat. I say give employees a wide range of options. When to come to work. What to do, or even if they should work at all. Imagine the increased productivity. Once you take away an employers force and give freedom to the worker then there could only be unprecedented increase in production.

I'm sold.
Earlier in this discussion, Randfan claimed to endorse capitalism. With the sort of understanding demonstrated above, it's a puzzle what s/he endorses.
Employment in a market economy is by mutual agreement. Providers of labor services select the most attractive employment option from the range of available options. Consumers of labor services (employers) select employees from the range of available applicants. It's at the time of selection that people exercise their power to choose. After that, the contract to which they mutually agree binds them.
 
Earlier in this discussion, Randfan claimed to endorse capitalism. With the sort of understanding demonstrated above, it's a puzzle what s/he endorses.
Employment in a market economy is by mutual agreement. Providers of labor services select the most attractive employment option from the range of available options. Consumers of labor services (employers) select employees from the range of available applicants. It's at the time of selection that people exercise their power to choose. After that, the contract to which they mutually agree binds them.
Woosh. :D
 
Earlier in this discussion, Randfan claimed to endorse capitalism. With the sort of understanding demonstrated above, it's a puzzle what s/he endorses.
Employment in a market economy is by mutual agreement. Providers of labor services select the most attractive employment option from the range of available options. Consumers of labor services (employers) select employees from the range of available applicants. It's at the time of selection that people exercise their power to choose. After that, the contract to which they mutually agree binds them.

You seem to be under the impression though that the 'free market' only can exist without government control, whereas the opposite is actually true.
The reason we have free markets is because in the west we enforce competition via government control.
There is a very good reason for the anti-trust/monopoly laws, as without those laws companies selling the same product would merge and prevent competition, enabling them to set prices as they want and make maximum profit. This is not vague theory, but historical fact. It's even current fact as there are still a LOT of companies getting caught price fixing.

Given the fact that the education of any nation is of far more vital importance it's logical that the government ensures that there is a minimal level given to everyone.
 
You seem to be under the impression though that the 'free market' only can exist without government control, whereas the opposite is actually true.
The reason we have free markets is because in the west we enforce competition via government control.
There is a very good reason for the anti-trust/monopoly laws, as without those laws companies selling the same product would merge and prevent competition, enabling them to set prices as they want and make maximum profit. This is not vague theory, but historical fact. It's even current fact as there are still a LOT of companies getting caught price fixing.

Given the fact that the education of any nation is of far more vital importance it's logical that the government ensures that there is a minimal level given to everyone.
I have often wondered about the Libertarian (or whatever Malcolm is) view of free markets in the light of history. From what I've seen, it appears that the "free market" answer to, say, the railroad trust, is simply that one is free not to ship anything. True, in a trivial sense, if one has a great deal of patience, but of little help in the real world, especially if not everyone rebels at once. There's an element of this in the education argument also. At some point, as I recall, Malcolm argued that we should be looking at what our children's grandchildren get for education, even if the results are poor in the meantime.
 
I have often wondered about the Libertarian (or whatever Malcolm is) view of free markets in the light of history. From what I've seen, it appears that the "free market" answer to, say, the railroad trust, is simply that one is free not to ship anything. True, in a trivial sense, if one has a great deal of patience, but of little help in the real world, especially if not everyone rebels at once. There's an element of this in the education argument also. At some point, as I recall, Malcolm argued that we should be looking at what our children's grandchildren get for education, even if the results are poor in the meantime.

The child labour discussion is probably a bigger problem though.
 
I have often wondered about the Libertarian (or whatever Malcolm is) view of free markets in the light of history. From what I've seen, it appears that the "free market" answer to, say, the railroad trust, is simply that one is free not to ship anything. True, in a trivial sense, if one has a great deal of patience, but of little help in the real world, especially if not everyone rebels at once. There's an element of this in the education argument also. At some point, as I recall, Malcolm argued that we should be looking at what our children's grandchildren get for education, even if the results are poor in the meantime.

Malcolm cannot show a current example of an anarcho-capitalistic\Laissez-Faire\Libertarian\whatever, system that leads the world in wealth (GDP or percapita GDP) Human Development or anything.

I have posted over and over real world examples of nations with great wealth and human development. All are some mix of semi-free markets and/or socialism (however you define it). But let me post one more time the Index of Economic Freedom. You know the one, put together by the Heritage Foundation and published yearly in the Wall Street Journal.

  1. Hong Kong
  2. Singapore
  3. Australia
  4. New Zealand
  5. Switzerland
  6. Canada
  7. Chile
  8. Mauritius
  9. Denmark
  10. United States
Here's the problem, conservative\libertarians\anarcho-capitalists\etc. have two things that is the basis of their ideology.

  1. Poorly defined pseudo science (Social Darwinism for instance).
  2. Philosophical argument.
That's all folks. No real world examples. Not only do they not have real world examples but the real world is negatively correlated to their beliefs.

Denmark, a nation with some of the most generous social benefits is NUMBER 9!

Canada that Icon of Socialism to American conservatives is #6. Australia with a minimum wage of $16.88 is #3. Most have UHC and the rest have some form of UHC.

What I want to know is why do they persist? There's no argument here. Failed science. Failed philosophy. Failed ideology. Now, Denmark has capitalism. So does Canada as well as America. Malcolm is arguing a straw man. He doesn't debate against real world socioeconomics because he can't. So he calls me a socialist and paints me as anti-capitalist as if there is dichotomy between free market socioeconomics and Stalinism (or something akin to it).

Conservatives\Libertarians\anarcho-capitalists, whatever, time to find a new argument or adopt a different ideology. Like the theists; science and facts are aligned against you.
 
Last edited:
Those are just facts. For them to have any meaning you need to live in what Karl Rove called, "The Reality Based Community". Laissez-faire capitalists, libertarians, anarcho-capitalists, whatever, live in a fantasy world where they, and I quote, "create our own reality. And while you're studying that reality—judiciously, as you will—we'll act again, creating other new realities".

It's popular with conservative and new age types. It was popularized in the book, The Secret. A wonderful new paradigm where anyone and everyone can get wealthy beyond their wildest imaginations by creating new realities. Skeptics and cynics refer to it as fantasy, wishful thinking, magical thinking or, better yet, "con game". I guess it all depends on the perspective. To the mark it's trusting in the wealthy and powerful. To the wealthy and powerful it's a way to exploit the sheep.

All we need to do is get rid of government and the sheep will be free again to give all of their resources to the wealthy protected by the invisible hand. A hand that has been known to allow collusion and corporatocracy. A brave new world indeed.
 
You seem to be under the impression though that the 'free market' only can exist without government control, whereas the opposite is actually true.
You will find no comment of mine that indicates "You (I) seem to be under the impression though that the 'free market' only can exist without government control ...'
Readers may backtrack. Here, for example. Markets require title and title implies an enforcement mechanism. If that mechanism is not a government, it will be social sanctions or (as when traders meet natives on the beach), the implied loss of beneficial contact that default would generate.
The reason we have free markets is because in the west we enforce competition via government control.
There is a very good reason for the anti-trust/monopoly laws, as without those laws companies selling the same product would merge and prevent competition, enabling them to set prices as they want and make maximum profit. This is not vague theory, but historical fact. ...
It's probably a fact that that's the argument for antitrust legislation. It's also a fact that many economists argue that major players will use antitrust legislation against upstart rivals, that antitrust legislation will, in fact, protect large players from competition. It's also a fact that monopolies often cannot survive without government protection. Natural monopoly implies an economy of scale so great that rivals cannot compete against an established major player. That often depends on current technology or limits on inputs. Let these change (e.g., cell phones, satellite TV, encoded digital radio, in the case of technology, opening of domestic markets to foreign suppliers in the case of expanded markets in inputs) and monopolists may fail. Consider the labor monopoly that the UAW had supplying labor to GM, Ford, and Chrysler. That crashed when the US market opened to Toyota and Nissan and Toyota and Nissan built factories in right-to-work States.
It's even current fact as there are still a LOT of companies getting caught price fixing.

Given the fact that the education of any nation is of far more vital importance it's logical that the government ensures that there is a minimal level given to everyone.
a) Governments are no more logical than politicians.
b) Nutrition is vital. Clothing is vital (in winter, north of the Iowa/Missouri border, anytime, above 8000 feet elevation). Are we starving because the government does not operate farms, grocery stores, and restaurants? Are we naked because the government does not grow cotton, or operate textile mills and clothing stores?
 
Last edited:
Malcolm cannot show a current example of an anarcho-capitalistic\Laissez-Faire\Libertarian\whatever, system that leads the world in wealth (GDP or percapita GDP) Human Development or anything.
Randfan cannot show a current example of a Stalinist/Maoist/Kim-Il-Sung socialist paradise that leads the world...
What of it? Care to dispute anything I actually write?
Here's the problem, conservative\libertarians\anarcho-capitalists\etc. have two things that is the basis of their ideology.

  1. Poorly defined pseudo science (Social Darwinism for instance).
  2. Philosophical argument.
Here's the problem: "Social Darwinism" is a pejorative invented by opponents of free markets and the minimal State. No free marketer establishes his/her analytic framework on "Social Darwinism".

That's all folks. No real world examples. Not only do they not have real world examples but the real world is negatively correlated to their beliefs.
 
Randfan cannot show a current example of a Stalinist/Maoist/Kim-Il-Sung socialist paradise that leads the world...
Again with the straw men. I believe in capitalism so Stalinism/Maoism/Kim-il-Sung is a giant straw man.

What of it?
It speaks for itself.

I have a valid scientific theory to justify social programs.
I have valid real world examples to demonstrate that the science is valid.
I have field research based on the scientific model to demonstrate the theory.

You've got NOTHING! Nada. Zip. Zero.

You can't explain why most if not all of the top 10 nations in the Index of Economic Freedom fit the model that I believe to be the best for humankind. A quasi Keynesian, regulated captialist system.

YOU'VE GOT NOTHING! A goose egg. Zero. Zip.

You don't like Social Darwinism? Fine GIVE US YOUR GOD DAMN THEORY? GIVE US YOUR DATA?

You never do that. You, like theists, creationists, etc., drone on and on with propaganda, cherry picked data and explanations.
 
Again with the straw men.
Got a mirror?
Malcolm cannot show a current example of an anarcho-capitalistic\Laissez-Faire\Libertarian\whatever, system that leads the world in wealth (GDP or percapita GDP) Human Development or anything.
I believe in capitalism so Stalinism/Maoism/Kim-il-Sung is a giant straw man.
Sorry, but "I believe in __X__" is too slippery. I believe in Cuban socialism, Obamacare, and public schools. I also believe in earthquakes, cholera, and crabgrass. If Randfan has actually supported in any JREF thread a minimally-regulated market or deregulation of an over-regulated market in any good or service. I would like to see a link to that thread and to Randfan's post in support of markets.
I have a valid scientific theory to justify social programs.
I have valid real world examples to demonstrate that the science is valid.
I have field research based on the scientific model to demonstrate the theory.

You've got NOTHING! Nada. Zip. Zero.
Readers may backtrack and assess. I have supplied abundant evidence.
You can't explain why most if not all of the top 10 nations in the Index of Economic Freedom fit the model that I believe to be the best for humankind. A quasi Keynesian, regulated captialist system.
I have offered the explanation for State support of education in otherwise market-oriented legal systems: Politicians of all stripes cannot resist the temptation to impose State-worshipful indoctrination.
YOU'VE GOT NOTHING! A goose egg. Zero. Zip.
Against the systematic arguments and empirical summaries, Randfan squeezes his eyes shut, puts his hands over his ears, and chants "Nyaah, nyaah, I can't hear you".
You don't like Social Darwinism? Fine GIVE US YOUR GOD DAMN THEORY? GIVE US YOUR DATA?
Again?
 
Last edited:
Readers may backtrack and assess. I have supplied abundant evidence.
I've asked you over and over for an example of a single nation with abundant wealth and human development that fit your model... so far, crickets.

I'll keep an open mind but I'm guessing you don't have any such examples... right?

I have offered the explanation...
That is exactly what the theists and creationists offer. Explanations. Dowsers, people who talk to spirits, hell, they all have "explanations. But without a scientific model backed up with facts and evidence they are not worth anything. Give us your science. Give us your model. Give us your real world examples... again I expect crickets.

I don't care which index you use. Pick a nation with high human development and high standards of living and wealth that fits your model....

Crickets, right?

Fantasy. Magical thinking. A belief in a failed philosophy.

Crickets.
 
Last edited:
I've asked you over and over for an example of a single nation with abundant wealth and human development that fit your model... so far, crickets.
Not at all. Most polities fit the model. Education system performance (by customary measures) varies directly with the degree of parent control.
That is exactly what the theists and creationists offer. Explanations. Dowsers, people who talk to spirits, hell, they all have "explanations. But without a scientific model backed up with facts and evidence they are not worth anything. Give us your science. Give us your model. Give us your real world examples... again I expect crickets.
Randfan expects crickets because he has closed his eyes to the model and the evidence, which I have supplied many times in this thread.
Fantasy. Magical thinking. A belief in a failed philosophy.Crickets.
That's what free marketeers say about socialism.
 
Not at all. Most polities fit the model. Education system performance (by customary measures) varies directly with the degree of parent control.Randfan expects crickets because he has closed his eyes to the model and the evidence, which I have supplied many times in this thread.That's what free marketeers say about socialism.
Oddly enough I can provide a conservative link demonstrating that social programs are not detrimental to a nations health and well being and you.... well... crickets.

  1. I have a viable scientific model.
  2. My model is demonstrated in both animal and human field research.
You? Well, still crickets chirping. Nothing. Nada. Zip.
 
Oddly enough I can provide a conservative link demonstrating that social programs are not detrimental to a nations health and well being and you.... well... crickets.
...
You? Well, still crickets chirping. Nothing. Nada. Zip.
I expect humans vary in their ability to consider evidence dispassionately and construct predictive models. Likely, this trait is heritable. Perhaps it's normally distributed within populations (with different means).
 
I expect humans vary in their ability to consider evidence dispassionately and construct predictive models. Likely, this trait is heritable. Perhaps it's normally distributed within populations (with different means).
That's all well and good but a robust scientific model (like evolution) makes predictions that can be tested. At the end of the day, mixed economies are still the best predictors of wealth and well being. Any way you choose to measure a nations success you can be sure that it will be a mixed model. Libertarian\Laissez-Faire, anarcho-capitalist, are such bad socioeconomics they don't even make the list. They are truly "failed". One can only wonder why anyone would subscribe to them. Then again, there are grown adults who propagate the notion that the Flintstones is a documentary. There is no accounting for intelligence and the propensity to cling to failed ideologies, philosophies and theologies.

We know what works, Well regulated capitalist economies with some form of Keynesian policies (central bank, monetary and fiscal policies).
We know what doesn't work, So called communism and libertarian/laissez-faire capitalism/anarcho-capitalism. None have have ever shown to be of any value to the society at large. All serve special interests. Thankfully, modern liberal democracies appear immune to such pie in the sky nonsense.

Of course there will always be the outlier. The person who believes in alchamey or the magic of the invisible hand or some form of statism to ensure a chicken in every pot. George Orwell (a socialist) and Ayn Rand (a capitalist) warned us of such silly and superstitious thinking.

To date, nations highest in GDP and per capita GDP and who are also high in human developmentand have mixed economies. Given the science one can only resound with a defining DUH!

  • We have the data.
  • We have the robust scientific model verified by anthropological field research and business mathematics (namely game theory).
  • We win.
Our opponents? They have "explanations"and famously failed pseudo science, what Rudyard Kipling termed as "Just So Stories".

Yet, in spite of the evidence the press forward to defend their cherished but left to the dung heap of evidence stories.
 
Last edited:
That's all well and good but a robust scientific model (like evolution) makes predictions that can be tested.
Some economist observed that evolutionary biology and economics are the same theory with different names attached to the terms of the theory. Game theory is a formalized branch of mathematics. Economists freely use evolutionary models (see Hirshliefer, "Anarchy and its Breakdown", JPE, 1995 and Posner, "The Law and Economics movement", AER, 1987) and biologists freely use economic models. See Dawkins, The Selfish Gene, Wilson, "The Ergonomics of Social Insects" (AER), Darwin, "On The Origin of Species". Game theory applies explicitly to economic behavior. See von Neuman and Morgenstern, Theory of Games and Economic Behavior. So also does standard economic analysis make predictions which can be tested. Standard economics faces several problems, among which are (a) people want more precision that the wild variables of the real world allow (b) politicians don't care whether the predicted malign effects of poor policy occur or not.
... We know what works, Well regulated capitalist economies with some form of Keynesian policies (central bank, monetary and fiscal policies).
We know what doesn't work, So called communism and libertarian/laissez-faire capitalism/anarcho-capitalism. None have have ever shown to be of any value to the society at large. All serve special interests. Thankfully, modern liberal democracies appear immune to such pie in the sky nonsense.
Sadly, ignorant people fall for the fairy tale of disinterested, altruistic, well-informed and competent government agents.
To date, nations highest in GDP and per capita GDP and who are also high in human developmentand have mixed economies. Given the science one can only resound with a defining DUH!
We can provisionally agree on the use of GDP, with this reservation: GDP (and HDI) includes government expenses, so a predatory State that spent vast amounts on surveillance of its own people, indoctrinating children into the State religion (so long as it's called "education"), and subsidizing padded public works projects for politically-connected insiders could look as good, on paper, as Switzerland. Other measures of social wellbeing present other problems. None is perfect.
  • We have the data.
  • We have the robust scientific model verified by anthropological field research and business mathematics (namely game theory).
  • We win.
Our opponents? They have "explanations"and famously failed pseudo science, what Rudyard Kipling termed as "Just So Stories".
Note the scare quotes. Randfan's explanations are explanations. Mine are "explanations". Randfan presumes the conclusion.

Randfan's data does not imply what he claims. At least, the data admit other interpretations. We agree that game theory applies to economic analysis. No modern economist in the Chicago or Austrian tradition would dispute that. I don't expect that Randfan can locate a significant difference between classical liberal (i.e., libertarian or "laissez faire") economics and Keynesian economics, aside from the Keynesian reliance on demand management. That is, with reasonable differences in the weight policy makers assign to various considerations, a Keynesian might easily be more inclined than a non-Keynesian to favor, say, deregulation of labor markets. As far as I know, there is no specifically Keynesian position on the assignment of responsibility for the provision of education services.
Yet, in spite of the evidence the press forward to defend their cherished but left to the dung heap of evidence stories.
He just cannot resist the descent into ad hominem.
 
Here's Jay Greene's blog on voucher studies:...
Here is what I believe is a complete (no cherry-picking) list of analyses taking advantage of random-assignment experiments of the effect of vouchers on participants. As I’ve previously written, 9 of the 10 analyses show significant, positive effects for at least some subgroups of students.

All of them have been published in peer reviewed journals or were subject to outside peer review by the federal government.

Four of the 10 studies are independent replications of earlier analyses. Cowen replicates Greene, 2001. Rouse replicates Greene, Peterson, and Du. Barnard, et al replicate Peterson and Howell. And Krueger and Zhu also replicate Peterson and Howell. All of these independent replications (except for Krueger and Zhu) confirm the basic findings of the original analyses by also finding positive effects.
See also the comment on the Kruger and Zhu study (the only one of the ten random-assignment that found no positive effect).

This fits with studies that find superior performance at lower cost of private schools, compared to government schools (Coleman, Lockheed and Jiminez). More interesting to me is Caroline Hoxby's comparison of large versus small districts and the Lassibile and Gomez finding that countries that subsidize parent choices outperform countries that restrict parents' options for the use of the taxpayers' sub-dult education subsidy to schools operated by government employees.

It's possible that government schools could outperform private schools and still for a voucher policy to raise performance. Suppose the measure of performance (Reading competence, Math competence) is valuable to an effective majority of politicians and to some large subset of parents (the nerds, let's call them) but not valued by some large minority of students and parents (the jocks, we'll call them). Suppose the jocks degrade instruction of all students if a monopoly school system compels their attendance. Then it could well happen that overall system would rise when the State allows jock parents to send their jock children to schools that emphasize jock interests. Substitute "motorhead" for "jock". Substitute "artistic" for "jock".

We could have an interesting discussion, if anyone is more interested in actually considering the issue than in ad hominem arguments and snark.
So we won't have that discussion, I expect.
 
Last edited:

ISF - Join now!

Every member here is approved by hand. No bots, no spam, just people who care about evidence and honest debate.

Membership is free!

Create your free account

Back
Top Bottom