Continuation Part Six: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[Ampulla of Vater]

You believe that Amanda is innocent beyond a shadow of a doubt. Therefore Vogt believing in the prosecution case and interpretations of laws makes her a poor journalist. However, CD taking the FOA stand and repeating their talking points causes you no stress because CD is on the right side of the case.

While I firmly believe that the ILE did not make their case, I think that in law the prosecution has won most of the legal technical battles as well as the war at the ISC.

I think that Vogt destroyed her standing much more by interviewing Laura Wray as a DNA expert than by believing the prosecution case.

I don't see why pounding on this possible relationship of Vogt and Mach is helpful and significant.
ETA - Does CD report or promote? Do you have a problem with her?

I agree with you, Grinder. In fact, it is getting to be rather irritating.

 

[Diocletus]

In what scenario would Guede's DNA be on that knife? There was only one attacker in the closed room when Meredit was killed and he left DNA and prints all over the room and Meredith. The knife covered in Meredith's blood would be the murder weapon and it left an imprint on the bed which is definately not compatible with Raffaele's kitchen knife.



What if it turns out to be fish blood?

I can't imagine that Rudy's DNA would be on there, and don't expect to see it.

I believe that the amplification process is human-specific.

 

[Supernaut]

I just have to wonder what kind of masochist you'd have to be, after all these years, to believe that you could still just drop "smart-ass one-liners" on this thread and imagine it'll get you 'kudos' of some kind.

Well, Tsig?

 

[billyryan]

I can't imagine that Rudy's DNA would be on there, and don't expect to see it.

I believe that the amplification process is human-specific.

One good thing that I learned today anyway is that C&V have possession of the knife so Stefanoni or the police have not got the chance to plant anything,it was not possible for C&V to test three years ago the sample was too small,why do you say Diocletus you can't imagine it could be Rudy DNA,was not samples with his DNA tested in the same lab we have proof of how exact Stefanoni was at the cottage,what makes you so confidant that she did not leave the knife Meredith's purse and her bra on top of one another in her lab

 

[davefoc]

I agree with you, Grinder. In fact, it [alleged relationship between Vogt and Machiavelli] is getting to be rather irritating.

I would find it interesting to know whether Machiavell knows Vogt or not and whether he has had any discussions with her that he could share with this thread. However, I am only a casual follower of this thread and this discussion has gone completely over my head. Is there any reason to believe that Machiavelli and Vogt know each other? What is the purpose of all the veiled allusions to this alleged relationship? Does anybody know anything relevant about this that can be posted in this thread consistent with the JREF forum rules?

I didn't know enough to be annoyed by the Machiavell/Vogt posts. I assumed that there were facts to back up what the discussion was about and I just wasn't aware of them. If there aren't any facts that can be shared in this thread about that then I will join the ranks of the annoyed on this.

 

[RandyN]

Aviello was brought back in the hope,1)he would give evidence that he was bribed by the Sollecito's or Bongiorno to tell the story about his brother and an accomplice killing Meredith 2)he would be willing to claim that Raffaele confessed to him about killing Meredith while in prison
His evidence today was that no such confession ever happened and he was in no way encouraged or bribed by the Sollecito's to give evidence
That to me is the truth despite what he has to loose in not helping the Italian criminal justice system prove their system is any better than that of the Taliban

As for the part about the brother and an accomplice that is a croc of .... but I was only talking about about his evidence in relation to Cassation and Mignini's efforts to save face over having held two innocent students for four years

I have read else where he made up the story about his brother and an accomplice to get the Perugia lying squad off his back who were pressurising him to get Raffaele to say something incriminating

According to the Guardian the SC ordered the review today because Aviello didn't have the chance to reject his earlier testimony. It appears that in court today S(he) had the chance but failed to do so.

It is worth noting that the prosecution had already filed charges against and S(he) faces another trial regarding this matter. Which on the face of it ...at least to me seems like the same actions used against Guede, Toto and all the other sub-cases related to this trial and filed mostly by Mignini. After a certain point how is it possible that so many criminals wish to destroy Mignini for his "good work"?

http://www.theguardian.com/world/20...ansgender-mafioso-meredith-kercher?CMP=twt_gu

ETA...pervert is reporting that someone called mason2 and Yummi are both in court today.

 

[Diocletus]

One good thing that I learned today anyway is that C&V have possession of the knife so Stefanoni or the police have not got the chance to plant anything,it was not possible for C&V to test three years ago the sample was too small,why do you say Diocletus you can't imagine it could be Rudy DNA,was not samples with his DNA tested in the same lab we have proof of how exact Stefanoni was at the cottage,what makes you so confidant that she did not leave the knife Meredith's purse and her bra on top of one another in her lab

Well, I suppose that there could have been lab mischief. But, Kercher's DNA was so prevalent in the samples that were collected, packed together, and processed in the lab, that I'm really not surprised to see her DNA show up unexpectedly, particularly given the level of amplification that this lab used. Rudy's DNA was not so prevalent.

 

[RandyN]

I would find it interesting to know whether Machiavell knows Vogt or not and whether he has had any discussions with her that he could share with this thread. However, I am only a casual follower of this thread and this discussion has gone completely over my head. Is there any reason to believe that Machiavelli and Vogt know each other? What is the purpose of all the veiled allusions to this alleged relationship? Does anybody know anything relevant about this that can be posted in this thread consistent with the JREF forum rules?

I didn't know enough to be annoyed by the Machiavell/Vogt posts. I assumed that there were facts to back up what the discussion was about and I just wasn't aware of them. If there aren't any facts that can be shared in this thread about that then I will join the ranks of the annoyed on this.

Well they were both supposedly in court today. Its not all that big so...

The speculation is that both seem to promote this case in a one minded fashion... that is dedicated to the crazy case originally brought by the crazy prosecutor Mignini. I am sure you have noticed that no argument presented by Yummi/Mac ever concedes that some very illogical things have gone on with evidence, witnesses, DNA evidence, press leaks, control to stifle free press etc...and while I agree that following this speculation is probably not helpful directly in this case I disagree that it is pointless. It is odd that someone like Vogt would be on board. I happen to think that Yummi is a paid employee of Mignini who earns his salt by running the silly arguments thru the different internet threads to sort out the details of the argument so as to test the crazy factor or how well an answer is accepted...why Vogt is not objective at all is a puzzle. Nedeau is simple to figure out...she says what ever she can to sell one more copy of her terrible book. She also has Tina Brown as a boss so nuff said there.

There is plenty of circumstantial evidence that the prosecution in this case engages in great efforts to silence those that say things he doesn't want heard as well as evidence that indicates a usage of the non free press to present things that might sway the always UN-sequestered jurors.

I suppose until an actual investigation into the misdeeds of the prosecution is started then none of it is relevant except to explain how things are done in Italy. Following the case closely for 5 plus years eventually shows a pattern of corrupt looking activity with no need to create some grand conspiracy theory. Vogt is certainly friends with the PMF's and Quinell. For me that is all one needs to know.

I hate to sound like a Knox fanboi because I am not. I would easily change my vote if the evidence was even close or more logical or without a controversy for every single point of the prosecution...but as it stands it is the dumbest case in history IMHO. And it is also likely a little corrupt certainly. But this seems explained by the Italian word for this behavior in Italy...it is a casino!

 

[Dan O.]

I can't imagine that Rudy's DNA would be on there, and don't expect to see it.

I believe that the amplification process is human-specific.

The amplification process itself doesn't care where the DNA came from. Human, monkey, fish, tree. It's all the same. There is a tagging that targets specific DNA sequences. And there is the enzyme that cuts the DNA at locations with another specific sequence. The combination of the length of the fragment between the cuts and the existence of the sequence that captures the tag is a human characteristic but there is no way to say it is unique to humans.


Was 36i in fact amplified? I haven't thouroughly parsed C&V yet.

 

[RandyN]

One good thing that I learned today anyway is that C&V have possession of the knife so Stefanoni or the police have not got the chance to plant anything,it was not possible for C&V to test three years ago the sample was too small,why do you say Diocletus you can't imagine it could be Rudy DNA,was not samples with his DNA tested in the same lab we have proof of how exact Stefanoni was at the cottage,what makes you so confidant that she did not leave the knife Meredith's purse and her bra on top of one another in her lab

I didn't get this impression from the reports. I could be wrong. I did hear that the new investigators had to get the sample 36i from either C or V. I didn't conclude that to mean they had possession of the knife though. After watching the bra clasp collection dog and pony show nothing appears to embarrass these people. Not even video taped misdirection nor even when these clear errors or corruption are pointed out directly. Dirty gloves confirmed by the person in charge and video of multiple investigators passing the bra clasp around and all handling it by the exact metal hooks where later we find multiple DNA traces supposedly. And if you are watching that try to note the guy who has a mask on his chin...who seems to resent the authority of it and so has the mask pulled down so that it is useless...just saying.

So in the end anything is possible with these samples. They are horribly compromised IMO.

DanO I seem to recall that C and V asked all the experts attending this test and all agreed there was no point testing this sample since it was too small. That would lead me to believe that they never amplified the sample. I would like to hear more about these supposed 50 cycle runs on the other DNA samples...I think Diocletus may have mentioned this.

 

[Strozzi]

I can't imagine that Rudy's DNA would be on there, and don't expect to see it.

I believe that the amplification process is human-specific.

We will have a real problem if Guede's DNA is on the knife. Guede's attorney Biscotti will howl that the knife was contaminated in Dr. Stefanoni's lab. But we all know from Stefanoni's sworn testimony that there has never been an incident of contamination in her lab, so that will point to contamination before she took possession of it.

Stafanoni may allege that the knife was contaminated with Guede's DNA while it was in the custody of the Flying Squad fabricators . . er, . . . I mean evidence collectors when they carried it from Sollicito's kitchen to the police station or when they re-packaged it at the police station for shipment to Stafanoni's sterile lab in Rome.

I hope the knife was not shipped through the mail from Perugia police headquarters to Stafanoni's lab in Rome or we will have the Postal Police drawn into this. Mama Mia!

 

[billyryan]

I didn't get this impression from the reports. I could be wrong. I did hear that the new investigators had to get the sample 36i from either C or V. I didn't conclude that to mean they had possession of the knife though. After watching the bra clasp collection dog and pony show nothing appears to embarrass these people. Not even video taped misdirection nor even when these clear errors or corruption are pointed out directly. Dirty gloves confirmed by the person in charge and video of multiple investigators passing the bra clasp around and all handling it by the exact metal hooks where later we find multiple DNA traces supposedly. And if you are watching that try to note the guy who has a mask on his chin...who seems to resent the authority of it and so has the mask pulled down so that it is useless...just saying.

So in the end anything is possible with these samples. They are horribly compromised IMO.

DanO I seem to recall that C and V asked all the experts attending this test and all agreed there was no point testing this sample since it was too small. That would lead me to believe that they never amplified the sample. I would like to hear more about these supposed 50 cycle runs on the other DNA samples...I think Diocletus may have mentioned this.

That's all that I read as well RandyN and I took that to mean that Conti & Vecchiotti had possession of the knife,maybe I am wrong about that

 

[RoseMontague]

Andrea Vogt was at the International Journalism Festival today, not in court at all. La Nazione had the best coverage today.

 

[billyryan]

We will have a real problem if Guede's DNA is on the knife. Guede's attorney Biscotti will howl that the knife was contaminated in Dr. Stefanoni's lab. But we all know from Stefanoni's sworn testimony that there has never been an incident of contamination in her lab, so that will point to contamination before she took possession of it.

Stafanoni may allege that the knife was contaminated with Guede's DNA while it was in the custody of the Flying Squad fabricators . . er, . . . I mean evidence collectors when they carried it from Sollicito's kitchen to the police station or when they re-packaged it at the police station for shipment to Stafanoni's sterile lab in Rome.

I hope the knife was not shipped through the mail from Perugia police headquarters to Stafanoni's lab in Rome or we will have the Postal Police drawn into this. Mama Mia!

I don't know about that if they find Rudy's DNA on the knife it will be claimed that it is absolute proof of a conection between Amanda Raffaele and Rudy

 

[Supernaut]

"Strine" = Oztrilian, BTW.

 

[Kaosium]

I suspect you might have gotten more than you asked for by this response, I'm sorry I wasn't more concise but I got to thinking about it and one point (and link!) led to another and I probably wrote and linked more than your questions required. If you're not interested in the details and tangents I went through perhaps someone else is.

Could somebody expand on this a bit?
1. What is the smallest amount of DNA that can be used to get a reliable DNA test result?

It kinda depends on what you mean by 'reliable.' As for what can be amplified and profiled, that can be as low as 10 pg or even less, though there's a number of technical considerations regarding the analysis of such minute material and what that might mean compared to what we normally think of when DNA evidence is evaluated.

Anything below 100-200 picograms (the definition varies) is considered 'low template DNA' and requires special handling and testing to preclude contamination. This is a much greater concern with low template samples as that level material wouldn't even register most of the time doing high template analysis, it wouldn't produce peaks of the appropriate height to register on the machine, in fact odds are they'd not even be labeled by the analysis program as it was set to preclude them. So a sample could very well have contamination from many minor contributors either from the handling or testing but they would never be discovered. This is one big reason why contamination is considered relatively rare in high template DNA testing, though they still take the necessary precautions, but someone's saliva, blood, semen or identifiable chunks of flesh or skin are less likely to be transferred willy-nilly which is not the case with (really) microscopic particles that do adhere and transfer easily as Halides1 has documented extensively in this thread and elsewhere from a variety of sources.

Another reason is that DNA analysis is an identifier, not a time stamp or GPS device. By that I mean when the police or prosecution say they have 'DNA evidence' in the United States or Britain (almost always) and most of the time in Italy they have an incriminating substance they found near or around the murder that by its very nature suggests involvement in the crime, such as blood, saliva or semen on or near the victim or perhaps skin cells underneath the fingernails. They then use DNA analysis to identify who that belongs to, it's not just that some unestablished substance DNA was found and that somehow 'proves' that the person touched something or was even somewhere at a particular time, it's the nature of the substance which helps establish that. That's why if you look at the flow chart for FBI DNA analysis on page 8 of this report (page 22 of the PDF) you'll see the first step is to identify the biological substance and if that is impossible they just return it to the submitter. If you're really interested in getting in-depth on this subject pages 4-15 (18-29 of the PDF) of that report includes an excellent overview of the DNA analysis process.

In this case <Dr. Stefanoni failed to identify the substance on the blade, we only know it failed several highly sensitive blood tests. She didn't even bother with the bra clasp which really surprised the independent court experts judging from their bolding it in their report which Komponisto (the translator) retained from the original:

The SAL shows that the generic test for blood using tetramethylbenzine (TMB) was not performed on Exhibit 165B, and nor was any laboratory test performed to show the presence of biological material other than blood.

We maintain that it would have been necessary to proceed to morphological analysis in search of any cells that may have been present by means of coloration with any of the reagents commonly employed in histology (hematoxylin). Such a simple and quick test would have required a minimal amount of material that would not have in any way compromised the subsequent laboratory tests but would have been able to clarify the nature of the material taken from the item under examination.

Notwithstanding the omitted test for cells (and thus the failure to identify the material taken from Exhibit 165B), the Technical Consultant hypothesized the presence of “presumed flaking cells” on the aforementioned item.

The Technical Consultant’s hypothesis regarding the nature of the material analyzed (which was confirmed at the preliminary hearing and at the trial), is wholly arbitrary in that it is not supported by any scientifically objective finding.

2. Is amplification always used or just for situations where there is very little?

Polymerase Chain Reaction amplification is standard in DNA testing, 28 cycles (exponential) is currently the most common, though more amplification such as to 31 or 34 is common with low template samples. In the Massei Report starting on page 183 (of the PMF copy) there's an overview of this process as well drawn from Stefanoni's testimony where it says the polizia scientifica use 28 cycles but I saw in passing where Diocletus said something about her going to 50 cycles on the knife but I defer to him on that subject as I never came across that information. It did puzzle me that she would have used 28 cycles on a sample she couldn't quantify (therefore she would know it must be low template and it would be necessary). Incidentally that section of Massei is basically the same thing as pages 4-15 of the FBI report I linked above, but I recommend the FBI one as it is not translated thus is easier to follow--and it has pretty pictures! ))

The other type of testing which does not rely on amplification is called RFLP (restriction fragment length polymorphism) testing and requires thousands of cells and has been replaced for the most part by PCR analysis. This page explains the basics of the RFLP process and includes another (shorter and perhaps easier going) description of the PCR process as well.

3. What is the mass figure a measurement of:
A. The total mass of DNA that is analyzed including all sources for the DNA in the sample including plant DNA if it is present?
B. The total mass of human DNA?
C. Something else?

Once the original sample (which may be of any size and composition) finishes the extraction process whatever was quantified has generally undergone human-specific quantification. Most kits are designed for (human) DNA samples of ~0.5 ng (500 picograms) to 2.0 ng, generally considering around 1 ng to be an optimum sample size (too much and the peaks will be off the chart, too little and they may not register enough RFUs). However there's also 'total DNA quantification' which may have been done before that step and is used on other procedures.

My uninformed view of the DNA on the bra clasp has been that there was a very small amount that was amplified a great deal. The test results were probably equivocal because the raw data wasn't made available to the defense. The nature of the equivocal data probably was such that matching anybody's DNA to the test results would have been equivocal because there wasn't a strong signal from any individual's DNA so that there was a large subjective element to the "matching" of the test results to RS DNA.

While it is true that there were so many alleles assembled by the numerous contributors to the clasp (minimum of 4) that one could find a 'matching profile' for roughly a quarter of Italian men, odds are that Raffaele's DNA contributed to the sample that generated that autosomal EDF due to the fact his Y-haplotype was present in that test as well (testing different parts of the DNA 'string').

Is this view a reasonable one? If the sample size wasn't actually small, does that make it more likely that the alleged RS DNA match was accurate? Do we know how the amplitude of the DNA signal claimed to be from RS compares with the amplitude of the DNA signal from the unknown males?

The larger the sample size the easier it is to amplify, profile and analyze. The more contributors to a sample the easier it is to 'match' people who didn't even contribute to the sample at all, however as stated above I don't think that is the case in this instance. Raffaele's is the largest of the low template contributors, however that may simply be because he had hundreds of items from his apartment analyzed in that lab that was not the case with others and/or he was at the discovery and exerted himself in attempting to break down the door, probably leaving a fair number of minute skin cells on that door, handle and floor. Meredith's contribution to the sample accounts for roughly 80%, Raffaele probably around 12% and one contributor at about 4% and one or more others of about 4% as well. Actually it's probably closer to 85% Meredith, 9% Raffaele, 3% some other male (who at one locus provided an allele that exceeded Raffaele's) and 3% at least one more male and perhaps other males and/or females as that aligns with Tagliabracci's testimony better (he had Meredith's as ten times that of Raffaele's) but Massei chose to accept Stefanoni's testimony which stated that going by peak heights Raffaele's were one seventh or so. I found looking into it that it's not directly linear with the smaller contributors who will generally produce peaks disproportionally higher than their contribution would suggest perhaps due to the nature of the PCR amplification process which starts geometric and then goes linear at the end and there's a higher percent chance the larger samples will do more reproducing at a linear rate than the smaller ones. However it's not really worth arguing!

You can also profile contamination, and it looks just the same on the EDF as anything actually deposited in the commission of a crime. However contamination does (generally) have certain identifying characteristics: it probably won't be the primary contributor to a sample, it may not even have any biological material outside the DNA (PCR amplifies DNA not cells and stuff) if it was contaminated in the lab, it will generally be found in small amounts and there may well be a number of contributors for items more likely to be subjected to contamination.

Which describes the bra clasp very well indeed! As C&V sum it up:

We find that the Technical Consultant arrived at this restrictive conclusion (presence of only two individuals: victim and Raffaele Sollecito) following an incorrect interpretation of the autosomic STRs as a result of having disregarded the recommendations of the ISFG concerning the correct interpretation of mixtures, recommendations which, had they been followed, would have allowed one to conclude that several minor contributors were present in the trace besides the victim’s profile (major contributor). Hence we agree with Dr. Stefanoni’s statement regarding “the extrapolation of a genetic profile deriving from a mixture of biological substances belonging to at least two individuals, at least one of male sex” but we cannot accept the conclusion stating that “the genetic profile is compatible with the hypothesis of a mixture of biological substances (presumably flaking cells) belonging” only ”to Raffaele Sollecito and to Meredith Susanna Cara Kercher”[/b] insofar as, from what has been explained above, a mixture is present in which several contributors of male sex are present (a circumstance supported by the electropherogram relative to the Y chromosome, where several alleles are clearly present which, despite being particularly evident, were not taken into consideration by the Technical Consultant);

- The item was recovered 46 days after the crime, in a context highly suggestive of environmental contamination. The risk of incorrectly interpreting such environmental contaminants from dust could have been minimized only by taking the care [avendo l'accortezza] to institute extremely stringent control procedures, including the analysis of extracts from sterile cotton swabs soaked with sterile buffer passed on ambient surfaces to take samples of dust, a procedure which was not carried out;

- Taking into account what has been explained relative to the inspection methods, having seen the documentation in the record, and in particular the DVD of the filmed investigation of the scene [indagini di sopraluogo], the official photos of the Scientific Police, and the statements made in court, we find that the universally noted inspection procedures and correct protocols of collection and sampling of items were not applied on Via della Pergola, even [those designed] to minimize environmental contamination and contamination from handling. From this it follows that it cannot be ruled out that the results obtained from Exhibit 165B derive from contamination phenomena in any phase of the collection and/or handling of the item.

Italics and bolding for emphasis and Italian retained from original; highlighting mine

If that clasp, which wasn't collected and processed under protocols required for high template work, let alone low template, isn't considered highly likely to be contaminated I don't know why they even bother with the rituals and the bunny suits. Consider what must (and/or might) have occurred for that from the moment they collected the bra. Somehow the clasp must either have been detached and coincidentally ended up in the same spot when Rudy (probably) ripped the bra off from the front and threw it to where the bra was collected. If it wasn't already detached it must have been hanging by a string or something and fell off when the bra was packaged. So either they missed it and left it on the floor when collecting the bra or it fell off and they didn't notice it.

They then proceeded to finish collecting the other items, removed the body and then the mattress the whole time not noticing (or caring) the clasp was still on the floor. With that many people in that relatively small little room moving about and moving things, entering and exiting the door which just hours before Raffaele had tried to break down mere feet from where the clasp was eventually found, not in the same place it was originally captured on video six weeks before. That's six weeks it must have laid on the floor there somewhere in a room with a broken lock and in a house with a broken window, that cottage looks kinda drafty even without the window broken and the lock on the door busted, I wonder would it would have been like to have been a dust bunny those six weeks.

Maybe if the bra clasp could talk it could tell you!

 

[RoseMontague]

Thank you Kaosium. A good change from working on my errata tonight. I even read your post a couple of times. LOL.

 

[Strozzi]

If they do find Guede's DNA on the knife it will polarize this case more than it is. It could also have a big effec on Guede, who may feel he is being framed for more than he admitted to. He has slavishly complied with his handlers and may believe he should be eligible for priviliges such as work release before long. If his DNA is found on Solicito's knife, the PLE will be under great pressure not to allow him out into society. Guede may not take that well. Guede may not hold together when he realizes he will spend many more years in a cell. He might feel betrayed. Do you think Guede might react and start talking?

 

[Kaosium]

Thank you Kaosium. A good change from working on my errata tonight. I even read your post a couple of times. LOL.

Thanks! I hope Dave isn't non-plussed at the length, he asked a few simple questions and I just intended to answer them but got carried away. I even forgot completely to answer one question and went on to something else and didn't notice until after I posted it.

 

[Kaosium]

If they do find Guede's DNA on the knife it will polarize this case more than it is. It could also have a big effec on Guede, who may feel he is being framed for more than he admitted to. He has slavishly complied with his handlers and may believe he should be eligible for priviliges such as work release before long. If his DNA is found on Solicito's knife, the PLE will be under great pressure not to allow him out into society. Guede may not take that well. Guede may not hold together when he realizes he will spend many more years in a cell. He might feel betrayed. Do you think Guede might react and start talking?

I don't think there's a chance in hell Rudy's DNA is on that knife, if anyone it would most likely be Raffaele's being as it was from his apartment and in his drawer.

As has been pointed out the existence of any (other) DNA just goes to show that knife was never extensively cleaned so as to remove all evidence of blood, something that is more difficult to remove than DNA, and of course it didn't match the wounds nor the outline in blood on the bed. The only reason to think there was another knife outside the one Rudy used is that miniscule sample (probably 10 pg or so) of Meredith's which either was an innocent transfer (Amanda had it on her clothes/body being as she lived with Meredith) or, more likely, contamination from the lab/handling, the most likely suspect being the Speed-Vac machine she used to concentrate the sample and for which all other electropherograms for samples she used with that machine were withheld according to what Diocletus has posted.

In this case the polizia scientifica simply profiled contamination, called it evidence, and dared the defense to disprove it. They took something on the order of several hundred samples from the cottage and Raffaele's, they were bound to get some anomalous results if they went looking for contamination-level DNA, much like the police in the Lindy Chamberlain case got numerous 'positives' with presumptive blood tests and tried to piece together an evidential case from them, even though a number of those 'positives' were vomit, milk or copper dust.