The Second Amendment and the "Right" to Bear Arms

No, you can't, but you should be telling Wildcat that, not me.

Except that Wildcat compared an American event to a Rwandan event.
Have you found any examples yet of 2 groups armed equally with firearms where one side was able to quickly slaughter the other like we saw in those 3 months in Rwanda?

No? Didn't think so. Keep on avoiding the point, I guess it's all you can do.
 
I've said it before, and I'll say it again. Americans already distrust the government massively (especially with the poisonous legacies of Vietnam, Watergate, the Cold War, excesses of the War on Terror and the NSA scandal), which means that any strict gun laws will be a non-starter.

You say that like you think other countries/governments don't have similar "issues." Yet again, this smacks of American exceptionalism.
 
Ah, 2 answers which don't even address the substance of the posts, let alone refute them.
You keep trumpeting the Civitas study as it's come from a completely unbiased source, which it hasn't.

It's not "massively higher", unless you think 3 more homicides per 100,000 population than the countries with the fewest homicides is "massive".
Hang on, you've previously decried the UK have an assault rate 50% higher than the US one, as if it's the End of the Word™, yet - apparently with a straight face - you think having a homicide rate 300% higher is not a "massively higher." How does that work?
 
Have you found any examples yet of 2 groups armed equally with firearms where one side was able to quickly slaughter the other like we saw in those 3 months in Rwanda?

No? Didn't think so. Keep on avoiding the point, I guess it's all you can do.

The only thing being avoided is you not addressing one side being outnumbered 6-to-1 in the context of genocidal intent by one side for the other, in the absence of the reverse.
 
The main argument that has been raised for the existence of the second amendment is historical - that it was required then for whatever reason (King, slaves, whatever) and therefore it still has validity now. I absolutely deny that argument.
I would bring up the Second Amendment not to argue that the use it had back then makes it valid now, but to point out that I do believe that the fact that it got codified in the Constitution has effects now. It turned it from a philosophical proposition to an example of the concept of "rights that government must protect", which made it "something which it would be evil to violate". Growing up with this right grouped together in the same place with all of the others in the Constitution makes it also occupy the same place with all other rights in people's minds. It's not that there's a general concept of "fundamental rights" as a category and the question is whether to include this one; it's that this is one of the original things that that concept of fundamental rights grew around and was shaped by. Trying to get someone to agree to a concept of fundamental rights that excludes one of the things that have always defined fundamental rights to him/her would be like trying to get someone to simply decide to have a concept of human relationships that is not based on his/her early childhood relationships, or trying to get an ivy plant to unwrap itself from its lattice.

Also, just the fact that it's part of the Constitution has not only the above cultural conceptual effects but also a technical one: repealing it would be repealing something that the law/government itself calls a fundamental right. And what kind of government does that? One that doesn't really consider fundamental rights to be fundamental rights and considers itself entitled to take them away from people who have done nothing to forfeit them. That's true of any termination of a listed right, whether or not one thinks the practical effects in any specific case would be good. No matter how benevolent a case could be made for it, it's still the government first saying the citizens are entitled to a certain right and then taking it away anyway.

No, I haven't. What does it mean?
"Molon labe" was the Spartans' answer to the Persians at Thermopylae when they got the message "Lay down your weapons": "Come and get them".

I believe the fact that the quote comes from a tiny force defending their home to their last breath against a gigantic invading force illustrates my point in the paragraph right above it: a government taking away an established right can only be seen as intolerably hostile; there simply isn't any concept of a good government trying to do good by eliminating an established right of its subjects citizens. Whether the right should have been established in the first place or would be today doesn't matter; once it's there, there is only one mode in which eliminating it could possibly be considered, just because any person/government not operating in that mode wouldn't consider it.

What could possibly convince me that it is a good idea to allow ordinary people to walk around in public with easy and instant access to a means of quickly and easily killing another human being?
The highlighted bit brings me to what I think is an even bigger issue than the rest I just said. I think most modern Occidental people other than Americans look at social issues from a population-wide perspective, and Americans insert themselves into the scenario as an example and look at it from the perspective of how it affects themselves. So a gun rights debate isn't just a vague distant hypothetical thing about the numbers of other people owning guns or how many times they get used somewhere out there per year; it's people telling me that I shouldn't be allowed to have one. So, for example, arguments about how badly other people might misuse them don't matter because I'm not one of those people and wouldn't do that (and for that matter such an argument is an accusation that I am and would), and arguments about the rarity of occasions where they might be truly needed don't matter because they don't consider what I'm supposed to do if such a rare occasion does happen to me.
 
Would you seriously contend that every firearms-enabled homice would have be substituted with a homicide by other means in the absence of those firearms? Clearly America has a massive homicide problem, and the availability of firearms is a part of it.
If all gun homicides were replaced with non-homicides, what would the numbers look like for the remainder (homicides without guns)?
 
That they have no discernible effect on homicide rates, and may well prevent other crimes.

I wouldn't put too much in the rape stats, as there are different ways of defining it in various countries as well as cultural factors in reporting it.

As for vehicle theft you're missing a big factor when it comes to that stat - vehicles per capita. The USA has 54% more vehicles per capita as the UK, yet the vehicle theft rate* is only 20% greater. So any given vehicle in the USA is less likely to be stolen than any given vehicle in the UK. Maybe thieves are afraid of getting shot? ;)

*note the rate in the civitas paper is per 100,000 population, not per 100,000 vehicles.

So are you arguing if it was not for guns the US would have higher still crime rates, making it a particularly crime ridden First World country?

Can you show how the relative deadliness of a gun compared to other weapons does not affect the death rates?

Can you explain the point of guns if tgey have supposedly no impact on crime levels?
 
You say that like you think other countries/governments don't have similar "issues." Yet again, this smacks of American exceptionalism.

Really? Illegal surveillance is just an "issue"? What about extraordinary rendition (the state engaging in really illegal operations), the Afghan and Iraq Wars (Vietnam version II), The War on Drugs (aka the new jim crow because minorities are incarcerated disproportionately, which has been a huge factor in violent crime), the poisonous legacies of Vietnam (most bombed country in history, and the US government sent thousands of young men to die on a fool's errand and lied about it) and Watergate (A president had to resign over this).

And most of the Anti-Gun people in this thread have been coming across as "you need HARD MEN making HARD DECISIONS to save you from yourselves", which has made the pro-gun lot annoyed, largely because of aforementioned poisonous legacies.
 
What difference does any of this make when determining whether or not firearms increase homicide rate?

I think that the higher homicide rate where guns are present is due to the higher mortality rate of gunshot wounds compared to stabbings and other weapons.

If you reduce access to guns the rate of violence could remain the same but the deaths will still decline.
 
Have you found any examples yet of 2 groups armed equally with firearms where one side was able to quickly slaughter the other like we saw in those 3 months in Rwanda?

No? Didn't think so. Keep on avoiding the point, I guess it's all you can do.

What about armed US settlers against armed Indian tribes? Were there not massacres there. How about the Mutiny in India where the armed British colonists were slaughtered by Indian troops?

Even with guns how does a small group stop a massacre by a much larger group?
 
In looking for something else, I stumbled upon this interesting SCOTUS case from this past April.


WASHINGTON — The Supreme Court left in doubt Monday whether gun owners have a 2nd Amendment right to carry a firearm in public.

Without a comment or dissent, the justices turned down a gun-rights challenge to a New York law that strictly limits who can legally carry a weapon when they are on the streets. To obtain a "concealed carry" permit, New Yorkers must convince a county official that they have a "special need for protection" that goes beyond living or working in a high-crime area. Link

I understand the "right to bear arms" and the (apparently non-existent) "right to carry a concealed weapon" are separate issues. I was not aware SCOTUS had refused to even hear a challenge as to whether gun owners have a 2nd Amendment right to carry a firearm in public.

Score one for our side, the anti-violence side. ;)
 
In looking for something else, I stumbled upon this interesting SCOTUS case from this past April.




I understand the "right to bear arms" and the (apparently non-existent) "right to carry a concealed weapon" are separate issues. I was not aware SCOTUS had refused to even hear a challenge as to whether gun owners have a 2nd Amendment right to carry a firearm in public.

Score one for our side, the anti-violence side. ;)

Does CCW actually lead to a rise in violent crime?
 
Does CCW actually lead to a rise in violent crime?

I'm not claiming it leads to a rise in violent crime. I am suggesting the more people you have walking around with a gun on them the more likely you are to have violence. That is New York City's rationale for restricting carry permits in the first place.

Let's be clear. I'm non-violent. Violence is something I don't believe in. I'm also philosophically opposed to the idea of arming citizens.

Look at the motorcycle-SUV thread. How that's turned into a gun thread, the numbers of people who are suggesting it would've been better for the SUV driver to have shot some of the bikers. Would it have been better?

As it stands, no one got killed. Only one person was seriously injured. I'm sorry the SUV driver got roughed up. I'm glad no lives were lost.

What I'm arguing is, from the perspective of the SUV driver this incident did not turn out too well. From the perspective of society as a whole it could've been much worse. Someone using a gun would've made it worse.
 
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This was entirely a free speech case, 100%. Congress attempted to abridge political speech by limiting the amount that could be spent disseminating it as well as the times in which it could occur.

It had absolutely nothing to do with donating to political campaigns.

Now you're backpedaling -- originally you said it had nothing to do with money -- but I agree with you now. It was free speech in terms of spending political money. However I don't agree that when you target a candidate you're against during a election you are not indirectly contributing to his opponent's campaign.

This is precisely why the FEC originally banned the movie, it was too close to the election, why people were upset about the precedent that Citizens United v. FEC set. And why four SCOTUS judges dissented.

Joe and Bill are running for governor. My company has reached the limit on the money we're allowed to contribute to Joe's campaign. So instead we start spending money attacking Bill for being a real jerk.

That evades the spirit of campaign finance laws though not the letter, at least not according to the Roberts' court (in another 5-4 decision).
 
You keep trumpeting the Civitas study as it's come from a completely unbiased source, which it hasn't.
Here's where you're supposed to explain what is wrong with the numbers civitas used. Did you just forget?


Hang on, you've previously decried the UK have an assault rate 50% higher than the US one, as if it's the End of the Word™, yet - apparently with a straight face - you think having a homicide rate 300% higher is not a "massively higher." How does that work?

Let's look at the difference in rates:

3.2 per 100,000 - not very much higher.

271 per 100,000 - much higher.

Comprende?
 
The only thing being avoided is you not addressing one side being outnumbered 6-to-1 in the context of genocidal intent by one side for the other, in the absence of the reverse.
The Israeli-Arab wars, where the Arabs definitely had genocidal intent.

And I mentioned this before... :rolleyes:
 

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