"24 hard facts about 9/11 that cannot be debunked"

[jaydeehess]

sonofgloin:

What no rebuttal on the insurance/lease deal? Can I assume you read the "06" agreement and now retract what you said about the insurance money?

PANYNJ really does hold all the purse strings.

Of course not, a lot of truthers stop responding once presented with actual facts that stand in opposition to the fantasy world they created or bought into.

 

[DGM]

Dastardly brilliant are these neo-cons. Rumsfeld made sure he was actually in a building that was attacked which just goes to show he knew exactly which offices would be hit. G W Bush makes sure he is 1300 miles away (thx carlitos) which just shows he knew exactly what office structure in NYC was going to be hit right?

I really don't understand this thing about G W Bush staying put when all this was going down. There is no way in hell the Secret Service was going to let him go anywhere until they were positive it was safe to do so. You would think "truthers", being as paranoid as thy are, would understand the concept of "flushing someone out". Bush wasn't leaving that school until the Secret Service checked and double checked the route to AirForce One.

 

[DGM]

Of course not, a lot of truthers stop responding once presented with actual facts that stand in opposition to the fantasy world they created or bought into.

If he was the least bit interested in the truth about this all he needs to do is ask. I spent a bit of time reserching this when I had to counter the claim from another member that "Larry made out like a bandit" (you might remember the exchange).

I'm done spoon feeding them. If they want to know, ask for the information. Don't tell me to "debunk" their belief.

 

[Spanx]

JS I will give you two unfathomable examples from the public record that Joe can comprehend that should have you asking why such acceptance of the official “story” when there was no investigation whatsoever.
Why did the National Institute of Standards and Technology not test for explosive compound residue in steel samples, only noting that similar compounds would have been present during construction of the towers. This seemed like an odd call, almost negligence given compounds degrade.
Then in 2006 NIST were given smples of dust (supposedly from the WTC) that had thermite compound residue, and they quite rightly rejected them as their pedigree was not assured. NIST was immediately petitioned to conduct its own studies using its own known "chain of custody" dust samples, but NIST refused.

.

Call me paranoid if you like, but you could be on to something here. I get the feeling NIST have read you post and closed down their website.

 

[Bell]

Dastardly brilliant are these neo-cons. Rumsfeld made sure he was actually in a building that was attacked which just goes to show he knew exactly which offices would be hit. G W Bush makes sure he is 1300 miles away (thx carlitos) which just shows he knew exactly what office structure in NYC was going to be hit right?

And watching AA11 crash into WTC1 on television. Bush said so himself!

 

[CptColumbo]

I've taken almost a year off from reading threads in this forum, because nothing new was being said and I see it's still true. See you in another year.

 

[jaydeehess]

And watching AA11 crash into WTC1 on television. Bush said so himself!

Well, one must consider the source. I suppose that all other Bushisms such as OB-GYNs not being able to love their patients are all part of the plan to pretend he was actually an idiot in public speechifying.

 

[jaydeehess]

If he was the least bit interested in the truth about this all he needs to do is ask. I spent a bit of time reserching this when I had to counter the claim from another member that "Larry made out like a bandit" (you might remember the exchange).

I'm done spoon feeding them. If they want to know, ask for the information. Don't tell me to "debunk" their belief.

I remember the exchange, did not recall that it was you who laid out the facts though, sorry and thanks.

It is, of course part of my above reasons for laughing at SoG

 

[LSSBB]

I've taken almost a year off from reading threads in this forum, because nothing new was being said and I see it's still true. See you in another year.

What do you expect? There is nothing new to discuss. Trutherdom is nearly a virtual ghost town now. We're basically Gone but Not Forgotten hobbyists now, exploring the ruins.

 

[jaydeehess]

Exploring the ruins,, I like that.

 

[dafydd]

What do you expect? There is nothing new to discuss. Trutherdom is nearly a virtual ghost town now. We're basically Gone but Not Forgotten hobbyists now, exploring the ruins.

Ruins will be Follies. Do they have Follies in the States?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Folly

 

[TjW]

Ruins will be Follies. Do they have Follies in the States?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Folly

I think the Watts Towers could probably qualify for that definition.

Or maybe the Winchester Mystery House.

 

[LSSBB]

I think the Watts Towers could probably qualify for that definition.

Or maybe the Winchester Mystery House.

I don't think the Winchester house qualifies. I believe from what I real that follies aren't built with a useful, versus decorative, purpose.

Also, I believe the remains of the Truth movement doesn't qualify, since AE911 serves a very utilitarian purpose: to fleece the gullible.

 

[sonofgloin]

Travis>> Why would they not? The school was a secure place. Better to keep him in the place you already have secure than to rush him out of there with no clear plan on what to do next.<<

Travis that is not a sound observation. The secret service knew planes were flown to targets....why not target the school, it was public knowledge that he would be there....they targeted the pentagon, which like the school is a ground level target.

Travis>> And it was the first steel framed highrise to have an unfought, out of control fire in it. So would we not expect unusual results from an unusual situation?<<

High rise fires burn at around 1000 degrees Celsius. The integrity of structural steel disappears at 1500 degrees Celsius.

Daffyd>> What should have happened? The president and the secret service running around like headless chickens? Could you quote the apposite rule from the rule book?<<

The rule book Dafffyd....it is in the book of common sense. The secret service advises Bush of the first strike at 9.02, they advise him of the second five minutes later....then left him at the school for a further half an hour...don’t be obtuse Daffyd.
J
ack>> Regarding Secret Service behaviour which "ain't in the rule book", am I wrong to imagine the US Secret Service are not so foolish as actually to publish their "rulebook" for protecting the president and that this is no more than an expression of personal incredulity?<<

Jack there is an unwritten obligation to act if you are employed in a vocation that has a “duty of care” caveat in the job specification. Just as a parent initiates their “duty of care” to remove a child from harm’s way, so does the secret service....but they didn’t ....join Daffyd in the obtuse corner.

Mark>> If these firefighters being interviewed in your video were in the South Tower lobby AND there were explosions (of whatever kind)<<

I said nothing about which tower the boys were in. The video was in response to your assertion that all the fire-fighters are signed off on the official tale. Re your contentions about the explosions not being explosions....it’s the same as pull it, you overlook the obvious because it does not suit your tale. I will quote the last fire fighters comment:
“PEOPLE DON’T UNDERSTAND, THERE MAY BE MORE, ANY ONE OF THESE BUILDINGS COULD BLOW UP, THIS AINT DONE YET”

Four of the finest on the scene and they talk about secondary explosions.....witnesses with experience of explosions....and they believe there were bombs....and you deflect the testimony with bleatings about the Marriot Hotel.

DGM>>What no rebuttal on the insurance/lease deal? Can I assume you read the "06" agreement and now retract what you said about the insurance money?
PANYNJ really does hold all the purse strings.<<

I think we are at crossed purposes. I said that Larry, as lease holder insured his buildings and the insurance payout went to him.
What you are discussing is this later separate action:
“In March 2007 Silverstein appeared at a rally of construction workers and public officials outside of an insurance industry conference to highlight what he describes as the failures of insurers Allianz & Royal and Sun Alliance to pay $800 million in claims related to the attacks. Insurers cite an agreement to split payments between Mr. Silverstein and the Port Authority as a cause for concern.
In July 2006, Silverstein and the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey filed a lawsuit against some of its insurers, for refusing to waive requirements of the insurance contracts that Silverstein claimed were necessary to allow renegotiation of the original July 2001 World Trade Center leases. This litigation, was settled together with the federal lawsuits and appraisal, mentioned in the prior paragraph, in a series of settlements announced on May 23, 2007.[26][27][28][29] Silverstein's lease with the Port Authority, for the World Trade Center complex, requires him to continue paying $102 million annually in base rent.[30] He is applying insurance payments toward the redevelopment of the World Trade Center site.[25]

 

[Reactor drone]

Travis>> Why would they not? The school was a secure place. Better to keep him in the place you already have secure than to rush him out of there with no clear plan on what to do next.<<

Travis that is not a sound observation. The secret service knew planes were flown to targets....why not target the school, it was public knowledge that he would be there....they targeted the pentagon, which like the school is a ground level target.

Unlike the school the pentagon is a huge building with a radio navigation beacon nearby.

 

[Mark F]

Mark>> If these firefighters being interviewed in your video were in the South Tower lobby AND there were explosions (of whatever kind)<<

I said nothing about which tower the boys were in. The video was in response to your assertion that all the fire-fighters are signed off on the official tale. Re your contentions about the explosions not being explosions....it’s the same as pull it, you overlook the obvious because it does not suit your tale. I will quote the last fire fighters comment:
“PEOPLE DON’T UNDERSTAND, THERE MAY BE MORE, ANY ONE OF THESE BUILDINGS COULD BLOW UP, THIS AINT DONE YET”

Four of the finest on the scene and they talk about secondary explosions.....witnesses with experience of explosions....and they believe there were bombs....and you deflect the testimony with bleatings about the Marriot Hotel.

Why are you making an assertion these men are "not signed off on the offical tale" or that anything they said supports your particular brand of reality-distortion. You continue to miss the point, much like you don't undertand why "pull it" refers to firefighters not buildings and the FDNY is not now and never has been in the building demo business. These men were in no position to actually witness explosions or bombs, hence their comments that they were LIKE explosions or like bombs. They mistook the collapse of the South Tower for an explosion.

Lots of things can be like explosions that are not bombs. I once had a car tire blow up in my face (I was deaf for about 10 minutes afterward) - I describe that as an "explosion" but it certainly was not a bomb. All you have provided AGAIN are witness statements that are at best ambiguous and open to interpretation. Where is your physical evidence? Where is your prima facie case? How does this explain EVERYTHING we know that happened on 9/11? You have to do that to make this work and you don't even try.

Tell you what, why don't you go talk to these men yourself? We know their names, know exactly who they are. Find out for yourself if they really mean "bombs" rather than the more generic "explosions" which can mean many things. Find out if they are Truthers who believe 343 of their brothers were killed by bombs or not or if they will want to punch you in the face for taking their comments completely out of context to suit your dogma.

Or at the very least partake of the more extensive formal interviews with these men that are available, such as this these:

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/package...IC/9110443.PDF
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/package...IC/9110444.PDF

Q. When either tower came down, did you have any advanced warning?

A. (James Duffy) Oh, no. I didn't know what it was when we were inside. I didn't know the building had collapsed, actually. I thought it was a bomb. I thought a bomb had gone off. That's why I really didn't know until after.

You need to go deeper than Youtube videos my friend or you will always fail.

Now please, if we can get back to it - explain how Larry Silverstein engineered the attack on the Pentagon and the hijacking and crashing of Flight 93 as part of his alleged insurance scam. And don't dodge this question agian like you have before. If you want to run with the insurance scam angle you have to be able to describe how that explains ALL of the attacks that day.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

Unlike the school the pentagon is a huge building with a radio navigation beacon nearby.

It's quite illuminating to look at both locations on, say, Google maps Satellite view, and turn all the labels off.

Somewhere in this picture is an elementary school:
https://maps.google.com/maps?ll=27.359862,-82.523139&q=loc:27.359862,-82.523139&hl=en&t=h&z=15

Somewhere in this picture, set well apart from other structures, is one of the largest and most distinctive buildings in the world:
https://maps.google.com/maps?ll=38.870989,-77.055961&q=loc:38.870989,-77.055961&hl=en&t=h&z=15

The startling similarity between these potential targets has helpfully been pointed out to us: both buildings are in fact situated on the ground.

 

[Travis]

Travis>> Why would they not? The school was a secure place. Better to keep him in the place you already have secure than to rush him out of there with no clear plan on what to do next.<<

Travis that is not a sound observation. The secret service knew planes were flown to targets....why not target the school, it was public knowledge that he would be there....they targeted the pentagon, which like the school is a ground level target.

Ah, but the Pentagon is a very easy target to spot. Everyone knows where it is and exactly what it looks like. Despite that the hijackers still almost missed it!

A tiny run of the mill elementary school? Good luck.

Travis>> And it was the first steel framed highrise to have an unfought, out of control fire in it. So would we not expect unusual results from an unusual situation?<<

High rise fires burn at around 1000 degrees Celsius. The integrity of structural steel disappears at 1500 degrees Celsius.

Incorrect. Steel loses integrity at lower temperatures than that. And office fires are quite capable of this. Read into the fire at the Library tower in LA for a good example of why steel skyscrapers need copious fire insulation.

 

[Robrob]

Travis that is not a sound observation. The secret service knew planes were flown to targets....why not target the school, it was public knowledge that he would be there....they targeted the pentagon, which like the school is a ground level target.

Not actually. The Pentagon and WTC were gigantic targets, easily visible from the air at 500 mph. The school not so much. Not to mention, a top concern of the SS would be not to drive the President from a somewhat secure location (school) to an unsecured location via an unsecure route (ambush).

High rise fires burn at around 1000 degrees Celsius. The integrity of structural steel disappears at 1500 degrees Celsius.

They soften and sag at a much lower temp, especially under load and not to mention all the jet fuel.

The rule book Dafffyd....it is in the book of common sense. The secret service advises Bush of the first strike at 9.02, they advise him of the second five minutes later....then left him at the school for a further half an hour...don’t be obtuse Daffyd.

As mentioned, the rule book would seek to avoid being channelized into an unsecure route and possible ambush.

Jack there is an unwritten obligation to act if you are employed in a vocation that has a “duty of care” caveat in the job specification. Just as a parent initiates their “duty of care” to remove a child from harm’s way, so does the secret service....but they didn’t ....join Daffyd in the obtuse corner.

Likewise, don't pretend your superficial Hollywood based understanding gives you insight into the situation.

Re your contentions about the explosions not being explosions....it’s the same as pull it, you overlook the obvious because it does not suit your tale. I will quote the last fire fighters comment:
“PEOPLE DON’T UNDERSTAND, THERE MAY BE MORE, ANY ONE OF THESE BUILDINGS COULD BLOW UP, THIS AINT DONE YET”

Why does every Truther cherry pick off the cuff comments made during a chaotic event as "evidence" of something? That someone might use "explosion" or "blowing up" as a descriptive term for a crashing burning skyscraper coming down isn't the least bit shocking. Nor is "pull" a demolitions term anywhere other than in Truther fantasy literature.

Four of the finest on the scene and they talk about secondary explosions.....witnesses with experience of explosions....and they believe there were bombs....

Again, cherry picking off the cuff comments to suit your POV.

 

[jaydeehess]

It's quite illuminating to look at both locations on, say, Google maps Satellite view, and turn all the labels off.

Somewhere in this picture is an elementary school:
https://maps.google.com/maps?ll=27.359862,-82.523139&q=loc:27.359862,-82.523139&hl=en&t=h&z=15

Somewhere in this picture, set well apart from other structures, is one of the largest and most distinctive buildings in the world:
https://maps.google.com/maps?ll=38.870989,-77.055961&q=loc:38.870989,-77.055961&hl=en&t=h&z=15

The startling similarity between these potential targets has helpfully been pointed out to us: both buildings are in fact situated on the ground.

I was going to set out to do exactly this^^^

The idea that a single story elementary school is equivalent to one of the largest office structures in the USA is so utterly ridiculous.
The later also lies alongside a major waterway, is surrounded by open areas and parking lots and is very close to a major airport.